551 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

The reason we've all jumped to conclusions about Corypheus is because we're genre savvy and we know that the instant someone starts talking any differently after an important villain is killed, it's a case of possession. Hawke lacks that knowledge.

[IanPolaris]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Hawke as. "Dim-witted fool" takes us back to expecttion and perspective. I didn't see Hawke like that. I didn't see her as "letting the villain walk away." Not to trample over the no spoiler tag (at least no more than already done), at the end of Legacy, there wasn't enough there to make Hawke do more than question, wonder and then walk on. The clues were visible for the player, yes, but that's a matter of meta, I suspect - our amalgalm of previous games and codex knowledge etc.

Were there decisions/options that I would have liked to have been made available to Hawke? Sure. But the lack of them did not skew my perception of her so much that I felt she was a fool. She was thrust into dire circumstances, pushed along with the current, but had opportunities to do the best possible in those circumstances. The choices, rather, the options, weren't always black and white. That didn't so much make her a fool as it made her human.

If the end of Legacy were the only time this happened, that would be forgivable, but it's not.  I could go into more details but that would involve massive spoilers.  Suffice it to say, Hawke fails to do a lot of things he should have been able to do (and want to do) during those three year gap between scenes which makes him look either dim-witted, or lazy, or honestly both.

-Polaris

[Aradace]

IanPolaris wrote...

Aradace wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, I'm not misrepresenting anything about the conclusion of Legacy - it's another example of Hawke letting the villain walk away. Hawke can address directly that Lanius has changed dramatically - his posture, his voice, and he even starts talking like Corypheus. If the writers of Legacy were supposed to make me see Hawke as a dim-witted fool, they succeeded.

Well, you can't say that protrayal of Hawke isn't consisted. He's frankly a dim-witted fool as you put it almost from the time he steps off the boat but is so good at killing, he can get away with it (that and some judicious metagaming on BW's part such as the Templars failing to notice battlemagic in their OWN COURTYARD!)

The problem is, I personally don't think playing a dim witted fool is much fun.

-Polaris

If you want a game that pays that much attention to detail, then perhaps BW games are no longer for  you.  I suggest finding a game that has some sort of faction system.  Such as Morrowind (If memory serves) and Oblivion.  Because it's obvious you arent happy playing a game where ANY metagaming is involved.

That is simply bullpucky.  All I ask is that I not be asked to play a moron and there have been reams of cases where Hawke even by modern CRPG standards is so hemmed in by the story as to come across as dimwitted at best.

-Polaris

Well there's your problem right there...You're considering DA a CRPG...Guess what? It's mutliplatform.  Just like TW2 now  (Sorry gotta throw that one in there every chance I get) So using the "CRPG" arguement isnt valid.  Im sorry you feel that way about Hawke but as whykik said, it's a matter of perception and expectation.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

The reason we've all jumped to conclusions about Corypheus is because we're genre savvy and we know that the instant someone starts talking any differently after an important villain is killed, it's a case of possession. Hawke lacks that knowledge.

Really?  Merrill has that knowledge and I somehow don't think a bloodmage Hawke (esp if he's done certain quests in Act II) would be unfamiliar with the ins and outs of possessing including how to detect it.  I'd go into further details, but this is a non-spoiler area.

-Polais

[IanPolaris]

Aradace wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Aradace wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, I'm not misrepresenting anything about the conclusion of Legacy - it's another example of Hawke letting the villain walk away. Hawke can address directly that Lanius has changed dramatically - his posture, his voice, and he even starts talking like Corypheus. If the writers of Legacy were supposed to make me see Hawke as a dim-witted fool, they succeeded.

Well, you can't say that protrayal of Hawke isn't consisted. He's frankly a dim-witted fool as you put it almost from the time he steps off the boat but is so good at killing, he can get away with it (that and some judicious metagaming on BW's part such as the Templars failing to notice battlemagic in their OWN COURTYARD!)

The problem is, I personally don't think playing a dim witted fool is much fun.

-Polaris

If you want a game that pays that much attention to detail, then perhaps BW games are no longer for  you.  I suggest finding a game that has some sort of faction system.  Such as Morrowind (If memory serves) and Oblivion.  Because it's obvious you arent happy playing a game where ANY metagaming is involved.

That is simply bullpucky.  All I ask is that I not be asked to play a moron and there have been reams of cases where Hawke even by modern CRPG standards is so hemmed in by the story as to come across as dimwitted at best.

-Polaris

Well there's your problem right there...You're considering DA a CRPG...Guess what? It's mutliplatform.  Just like TW2 now  (Sorry gotta throw that one in there every chance I get) So using the "CRPG" arguement isnt valid.  Im sorry you feel that way about Hawke but as whykik said, it's a matter of perception and expectation.

My bad.  Bioware called it a CRPG.  Gee, no wonder people are a little ticked off.  Imagine wanting a CRPG from a game called a CRPG.

So I guess I have no right to any opinion on this game nor does anyone that wants a roleplaying experience.

How generous of you.



-Polaris

Edit:  In case you missed it above, "Go jump in a lake."  I have every right to criticize DA2 as a CRPG.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 17 août 2011 - 05:20 .

[Aradace]

@Polaris - Im not saying that at all. (what I said was mainly in jest because of TW part lol) What I am saying is that DA is no longer a "C"Rpg. It's a multiplatform RPG. Your opinion is just as valid as mine. What I AM saying is that if that is the standard for a "C"Rpg, then perhaps you need to look at it as not being a CRPG anymore because technically, it's not.

Modifié par Aradace, 17 août 2011 - 05:24 .

[Realmzmaster]

Everyone is looking at Hawke being powerless or not from his/her POV. Everyone has his/her opinion. I think Hawke is not powerless. His power lies in changing the individual and not the world. Others state that Hawke could have done more with his fame and money using them to gain city changing power.

Act 3 in DA2 was a weak point. The templar siding story was better written than the mage siding story. If Hawke sided with the templars he was Viscount and had most if not all the power in the city. If he sided with the mages he had to leave. The Divine was going to send more templars to re-take control of Kirkwall. Not a great ending , but I have played games with much worst endings.

I liked DA2. Some here did not like DA2. I respect your opinion and I hope you respect my opinion. You will give your opinion and I will tell you why I agree or disagree with it. One some points we will have to agree to disagree.

I have my POV and other forum mates have their POV. Neither is wrong or right. It is simply how we see it. But I will state my case if I do not or do agree with you. My opinion has as much right to shape future DA products as anyone else's.
I do not IMHO think that Hawke is powerless.

[IanPolaris]

Aradace wrote...

@Polaris - Im not saying that at all. (what I said was mainly in jest because of TW part lol) What I am saying is that DA is no longer a "C"Rpg. It's a multiplatform RPG. Your opinion is just as valid as mine. What I AM saying is that if that is the standard for a "C"Rpg, then perhaps you need to look at it as not being a CRPG anymore because technically, it's not.

No.  TECHNICALLY it is.  It is the sequel to DAO which definately is (unlike ME which was explicitly a hybrid from the start) and even Bioware said it was (roleplay Hawke's rise to power).  The problem is you aren't RPing.  You are watching a dimwitted fool blunder his way into power because he's good at killing.

Sorry to break it to you but there it is.

-Polaris

[alex90c]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Everyone is looking at Hawke being powerless or not from his/her POV. Everyone has his/her opinion. I think Hawke is not powerless. His power lies in changing the individual and not the world. Others state that Hawke could have done more with his fame and money using them to gain city changing power.

Act 3 in DA2 was a weak point. The templar siding story was better written than the mage siding story. If Hawke sided with the templars he was Viscount and had most if not all the power in the city. If he sided with the mages he had to leave. The Divine was going to send more templars to re-take control of Kirkwall. Not a great ending , but I have played games with much worst endings.

I liked DA2. Some here did not like DA2. I respect your opinion and I hope you respect my opinion. You will give your opinion and I will tell you why I agree or disagree with it. One some points we will have to agree to disagree.

I have my POV and other forum mates have their POV. Neither is wrong or right. It is simply how we see it. But I will state my case if I do not or do agree with you. My opinion has as much right to shape future DA products as anyone else's.
I do not IMHO think that Hawke is powerless.

His only power in "changing the individual" is wadng in and killing goddamn individuals. You know ... groups of around 50 of them. Every two minutes. Non-stop.

I heard the HQ of the Kirkwall Parachute Division has been trying to retrieve the massive amount of dogtags off the bodies of all their dead men.

[Persephone]

alex90c wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...

Not my point.

What would have happened if Varric wasn't there?, if it's so true that the companions are not more important than Hawke.

So if they make a companion a quest giver, he's automatically more important than the PC?   What?

Varric offers to work with Hawke to get him to the Deep Roads.

Varric not doing that (keeping Hawke updated, e.g. about Deep Roads maps by Anders) means Hawke doesn't go on the expedition.

= Varric more important than Hawke.

= Hawke is once again shown to be an ineffectual wanker.

Like people like Flemeth, Loghain, Alistair, Riordan, Cailan (Without his political ineptness and glory seeking Ostagar would not have given you a stepping stone) and Duncan make the Warden an ineffectual non-entity without a voice, personality or the ability to show even the slightest bit of emotion on his/her face safe a derpy deer in the headlights "Duh!" stare?

Extremes you say? Huh. Biased you say? Huh.

Modifié par Persephone, 17 août 2011 - 05:27 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Just to clarify something about how I am looking at things - by no means am I saying that anyone who sees Hawke as "dim-witted" is wrong. I simply don't agree - I just didn't have that experience. And I truly believe that a lot of how we all perceive the PC and companions has to do with how we approached the game.

It just seems to me that we can meet more in the middle, which is uncharacteristicly optimistic of me. We're at such grand extremes - 180 degrees here or there. Maybe the best we can do is to agree to disagree. Or maybe we can try to narrow down what we were hoping for when we first loaded the game. That might put us in a better position to analyze who Hawke was to each of us, what we put into the character, etc.

Or I've been snorting too many twinkies.

[Aradace]

IanPolaris wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Polaris - Im not saying that at all. (what I said was mainly in jest because of TW part lol) What I am saying is that DA is no longer a "C"Rpg. It's a multiplatform RPG. Your opinion is just as valid as mine. What I AM saying is that if that is the standard for a "C"Rpg, then perhaps you need to look at it as not being a CRPG anymore because technically, it's not.

No.  TECHNICALLY it is.  It is the sequel to DAO which definately is (unlike ME which was explicitly a hybrid from the start) and even Bioware said it was (roleplay Hawke's rise to power).  The problem is you aren't RPing.  You are watching a dimwitted fool blunder his way into power because he's good at killing.

Sorry to break it to you but there it is.

-Polaris

Really? Because the moment Origins went to multiplatforms, it ceased to be a "CRPG" anymore.  When you argue symantics anyway.  That's my original point, which again is mostly in jest but if you want to get serious about it we can.  While you may not be "RP"ing in DA2, that doesnt mean that no one else is/can. 

[Monica21]

 Ian, you're really not helping yourself by calling people names or throwing out childish insults. I think everyone has a right to their opinion, but really, we get it. The devs get, the people who largely agree with you and the people who don't agree with you get it. You're treating the product as a personal affront to you. Perhaps it is time you amused yourself with a different game instead of repeating yourself ad naseuem. 

[IanPolaris]

Monica21 wrote...

 Ian, you're really not helping yourself by calling people names or throwing out childish insults. I think everyone has a right to their opinion, but really, we get it. The devs get, the people who largely agree with you and the people who don't agree with you get it. You're treating the product as a personal affront to you. Perhaps it is time you amused yourself with a different game instead of repeating yourself ad naseuem. 

I was told I didn't have a right to my opinion because it wasn't "really" a CPRG.  Sorry, but I was and am offended and I have every right to be.

-Polaris

[Persephone]

IanPolaris wrote...
The problem is you aren't RPing.  You are watching a dimwitted fool blunder his way into power because he's good at killing.

Sorry to break it to you but there it is.

-Polaris

Sorry to break it to you then, that's not how I played any of my Hawkes. And don't tell me how I am playing DAII because it felt like that to you.

[alex90c]

Persephone wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...

Not my point.

What would have happened if Varric wasn't there?, if it's so true that the companions are not more important than Hawke.

So if they make a companion a quest giver, he's automatically more important than the PC?   What?

Varric offers to work with Hawke to get him to the Deep Roads.

Varric not doing that (keeping Hawke updated, e.g. about Deep Roads maps by Anders) means Hawke doesn't go on the expedition.

= Varric more important than Hawke.

= Hawke is once again shown to be an ineffectual wanker.

Like people like Flemeth, Loghain, Alistair, Riordan, Cailan (Without his political ineptness and glory seeking Ostagar would not have given you a stepping stone) and Duncan make the Warden an ineffectual non-entity without a voice, personality or the ability to show even the slightest bit of emotion on his/her face safe a derpy deer in the headlights "Duh!" stare?

Extremes you say? Huh. Biased you say? Huh.

...did I even mention the Warden? 

[Aradace]

Monica21 wrote...

 Ian, you're really not helping yourself by calling people names or throwing out childish insults. I think everyone has a right to their opinion, but really, we get it. The devs get, the people who largely agree with you and the people who don't agree with you get it. You're treating the product as a personal affront to you. Perhaps it is time you amused yourself with a different game instead of repeating yourself ad naseuem. 

Precisely, if you enjoy Origins more than DA2, then go play Origins and leave the folks who like DA2 in peace.  That simple.  You dont see me invading the Origins forums saying how much I think its inferior to DA2 do you?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vormaerin wrote...
The thing that Hawke does that no one else seems likely to be able to do is deal with the Qunari.  No one else has the chance to sort it out without massive bloodshed. 

Because what Hawke does is not just bloodshed?

If you want an example of a quest that can play out multiple ways, the Sister Petrice story arc is a good example.   You can kill all the human fanatics, you can let them go, or you can join them in inciting the Qunari to violence.    There's also Feynriel, a quest with a number of distinct endings.  Grace's quest line plays differently depending on various decisions you make at various stages. 

You can't join the fanatics unless you are aggro, an idiotic logic.
And Grace's quest ends in exactly the same fashion. aka more lunacy.

Hawke is important because of what he does.

Which is just killing in droves. That's it (with the possible option of avoiding killing a final wave). Not because he is a savvy businessman. Not because he is intelligent. Not because of his connections. Not because of his values. Not because of the wealth we never see. Just by the simple fact that he is a good killer. And that is almost like a super hero story. People listen because you are an impressive brute and nothing more.

Even most do not seem to remember that you are noble. Scratch that, Hawke doesn't seem to realize he is noble and actually use that to his advantage. And for 3 years, he forgot he was champion.

EDIT: which is not to say that bioware games are good in that regard. All their PCs end up being more or less killling machines. But they had options and places where the PC could display some intelligence and skill, out of their own volition. It alleviated the mass murdering part of the game. In DA2, I never once felt I was playing anything other than a dim wit.

IMHO, the real reason that some people are dissatisfied with Hawke compared to the Warden is not Hawke is less effective or has fewer choices.  Its entirely because the Warden story is a traditional epic with a clear cut  "yay, we win" moment at the end.   Hawke doesn't win in that sense.  The story is set up so that the villain wins no matter what you do, except perhaps be a knowing ally of the villain.

Perhaps, but I am certainly not one of them. I like that you cannot possibly save Leandra and count it as one of the few redeeming things in this game.

What I would have liked is Hawke attempting to do something, even if he failed. Why? Because that makes it *much* more tragic. The fact that you tried and still failed. Hawke did nothing.
And that's not mentionning the poor writing of Act 3 and quite frankly the insult to our intelligence when they think we are so dim witted that we need boss fights for the sake of it. Not to mention the idiotic idol that stripped the story of a lot of humanity.

You are not doing this right now, but dismissing people's criticism of the ending because it wasn't "happy" would be innacurate for a lot of people.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 05:41 .

[Mr.House]

alex90c wrote...

Persephone wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...

Not my point.

What would have happened if Varric wasn't there?, if it's so true that the companions are not more important than Hawke.

So if they make a companion a quest giver, he's automatically more important than the PC?   What?

Varric offers to work with Hawke to get him to the Deep Roads.

Varric not doing that (keeping Hawke updated, e.g. about Deep Roads maps by Anders) means Hawke doesn't go on the expedition.

= Varric more important than Hawke.

= Hawke is once again shown to be an ineffectual wanker.

Like people like Flemeth, Loghain, Alistair, Riordan, Cailan (Without his political ineptness and glory seeking Ostagar would not have given you a stepping stone) and Duncan make the Warden an ineffectual non-entity without a voice, personality or the ability to show even the slightest bit of emotion on his/her face safe a derpy deer in the headlights "Duh!" stare?

Extremes you say? Huh. Biased you say? Huh.

...did I even mention the Warden? 

You complained because party memebers and other characters that are not Hawke offer work to Hawke and are more "importent" then Hawke, when it was no diffrent in DAO with certain characters, the ones Perse mentioned. Your post is bias.

[Monica21]

IanPolaris wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

 Ian, you're really not helping yourself by calling people names or throwing out childish insults. I think everyone has a right to their opinion, but really, we get it. The devs get, the people who largely agree with you and the people who don't agree with you get it. You're treating the product as a personal affront to you. Perhaps it is time you amused yourself with a different game instead of repeating yourself ad naseuem. 

I was told I didn't have a right to my opinion because it wasn't "really" a CPRG.  Sorry, but I was and am offended and I have every right to be.

-Polaris

I read nothing offensive in that person's opinion, only that the game is not a CRPG. I fail to see what could cause such a reaction as to tell the poster to "go jump in a lake."

[Persephone]

alex90c wrote...

Persephone wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...

Not my point.

What would have happened if Varric wasn't there?, if it's so true that the companions are not more important than Hawke.

So if they make a companion a quest giver, he's automatically more important than the PC?   What?

Varric offers to work with Hawke to get him to the Deep Roads.

Varric not doing that (keeping Hawke updated, e.g. about Deep Roads maps by Anders) means Hawke doesn't go on the expedition.

= Varric more important than Hawke.

= Hawke is once again shown to be an ineffectual wanker.

Like people like Flemeth, Loghain, Alistair, Riordan, Cailan (Without his political ineptness and glory seeking Ostagar would not have given you a stepping stone) and Duncan make the Warden an ineffectual non-entity without a voice, personality or the ability to show even the slightest bit of emotion on his/her face safe a derpy deer in the headlights "Duh!" stare?

Extremes you say? Huh. Biased you say? Huh.

...did I even mention the Warden? 

No. I did to show how that is true for pretty much any Bioware hero. Even the bloody Bhaalspawn who'd be nothing without Gorion. If it did not bother you with the Warden, why should it bother me with Hawke? Never mind that I do not think it is actually true at all.

[Mr.House]

IanPolaris wrote...
The problem is you aren't RPing.  You are watching a dimwitted fool blunder his way into power because he's good at killing.

Sorry to break it to you but there it is.

-Polaris

How did the Warden become the Warden? Because they where good at killing and impressed Duncan

[Monica21]

Aradace wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

 Ian, you're really not helping yourself by calling people names or throwing out childish insults. I think everyone has a right to their opinion, but really, we get it. The devs get, the people who largely agree with you and the people who don't agree with you get it. You're treating the product as a personal affront to you. Perhaps it is time you amused yourself with a different game instead of repeating yourself ad naseuem. 

Precisely, if you enjoy Origins more than DA2, then go play Origins and leave the folks who like DA2 in peace.  That simple.  You dont see me invading the Origins forums saying how much I think its inferior to DA2 do you?

I don't mind people discussing what they would have preferred to see in DA2 or how they think DA3 can be better. Honestly, I wasn't satisfied with DA2. It can be done in a far less aggressive and off-putting manner though. When you're so entrenched in a position that everyone is wrong, then it's time to move on.

[Aradace]

Monica21 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

 Ian, you're really not helping yourself by calling people names or throwing out childish insults. I think everyone has a right to their opinion, but really, we get it. The devs get, the people who largely agree with you and the people who don't agree with you get it. You're treating the product as a personal affront to you. Perhaps it is time you amused yourself with a different game instead of repeating yourself ad naseuem. 

I was told I didn't have a right to my opinion because it wasn't "really" a CPRG.  Sorry, but I was and am offended and I have every right to be.

-Polaris

I read nothing offensive in that person's opinion, only that the game is not a CRPG. I fail to see what could cause such a reaction as to tell the poster to "go jump in a lake."

What's funny is that in that same post he's claiming to say I said that, I actually said QUITE THE OPPOSITE.  But, I guess this is a perfect example of how the human mind sees what it WANTS to see and not necessarily what is actually there.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Everyone is looking at Hawke being powerless or not from his/her POV. Everyone has his/her opinion. I think Hawke is not powerless. His power lies in changing the individual and not the world. Others state that Hawke could have done more with his fame and money using them to gain city changing power.

The Warden and Shepard also change individuals. Quite frankly, side quests in these games dealing with individuals were much more memorable to me. Other than Feynriel, I really more or less forgot all of those personal choices in DA2.

What I am trying to say is that "individual-centric" and "world-centric" choices are not a mutually exclusive dichotomy. one could have both. Especially when the DA team said that the franchise is about Thedas.