551 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

Mr.House wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The problem is you aren't RPing.  You are watching a dimwitted fool blunder his way into power because he's good at killing.

Sorry to break it to you but there it is.

-Polaris

How did the Warden become the Warden? Because they where good at killing and impressed Duncan

Never mind the Warden being just as much a mass murderer (Calling an RPG hero that is kinda moot) as Hawke supposedly is.

[Cutlass Jack]

Monica21 wrote...

I don't mind people discussing what they would have preferred to see in DA2 or how they think DA3 can be better. Honestly, I wasn't satisfied with DA2. It can be done in a far less aggressive and off-putting manner though. When you're so entrenched in a position that everyone is wrong, then it's time to move on.

Wise words everyone can learn from.

[IanPolaris]

Mr.House wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The problem is you aren't RPing.  You are watching a dimwitted fool blunder his way into power because he's good at killing.

Sorry to break it to you but there it is.

-Polaris

How did the Warden become the Warden? Because they where good at killing and impressed Duncan

Actually no.  DAO goes into good detail on how you become a warden and good at killing is the least of it for many of the origin stories.  Duncan is looking for a 'mysterious' "it" and you've got it.  Many of the origin stories have relatively little killing really. and even then, Duncan makes it clear that the combat is only on axis about how he determines who will be a warden, not the test itself.

-Polaris

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Everyone is looking at Hawke being powerless or not from his/her POV. Everyone has his/her opinion. I think Hawke is not powerless. His power lies in changing the individual and not the world. Others state that Hawke could have done more with his fame and money using them to gain city changing power.

The Warden and Shepard also change individuals. Quite frankly, side quests in these games dealing with individuals were much more memorable to me. Other than Feynriel, I really more or less forgot all of those personal choices in DA2.

And that's where we differ. I remember them all and with Legacy thrown in, they became even more memorable.

[IanPolaris]

Persephone wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The problem is you aren't RPing.  You are watching a dimwitted fool blunder his way into power because he's good at killing.

Sorry to break it to you but there it is.

-Polaris

How did the Warden become the Warden? Because they where good at killing and impressed Duncan

Never mind the Warden being just as much a mass murderer (Calling an RPG hero that is kinda moot) as Hawke supposedly is.

Well sure.  Goes with the genre, but in most cases the killing has a purpose and I find that lacking in many cases in DA2.

-Polaris

[alex90c]

You complained because party memebers and other characters that are not Hawke offer work to Hawke and are more "importent" then Hawke, when it was no diffrent in DAO with certain characters, the ones Perse mentioned. Your post is bias.

Firstly, it's "important".

Secondly, I didn't mention the goddamn Warden.

Thirdly, yes I am biased. I thought you would have gathered that after seeing me do nothing but rip in to DA2 non-stop for over a month.

No. I did to show how that is true for pretty much any Bioware hero. Even the bloody Bhaalspawn who'd be nothing without Gorion. If it did not bother you with the Warden, why should it bother me with Hawke? Never mind that I do not think it is actually true at all.

It didn't bother me with the Warden because it's not made so f*cking blatant. It's the same with the whole "choices" argument - yes they don't affect the actual game much in DA:O but the illusion is there and it's maintained very well. On the other hand, DA2 whacks you round the face repeatedly reminding you NOTHING YOU DO F*CKING MATTERS.

Petrice: Hey Hawke, escort this Qunari for me.
Hawke: Nah I don't wanna.
Petrice: BUT THE PLOT DICTATES TROLOLOLOLO
Hawke: Ok

Modifié par alex90c, 17 août 2011 - 05:41 .

[Persephone]

IanPolaris wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The problem is you aren't RPing.  You are watching a dimwitted fool blunder his way into power because he's good at killing.

Sorry to break it to you but there it is.

-Polaris

How did the Warden become the Warden? Because they where good at killing and impressed Duncan

Actually no.  DAO goes into good detail on how you become a warden and good at killing is the least of it for many of the origin stories.  Duncan is looking for a 'mysterious' "it" and you've got it.  Many of the origin stories have relatively little killing really. and even then, Duncan makes it clear that the combat is only on axis about how he determines who will be a warden, not the test itself.

-Polaris

Well, he sure got lucky with you then, given how his other chosen ones end up. YAY Plot Armor! (Epic fail on his part there. Never mind that my opinion of Duncan as a Commander is very low at this point)

Modifié par Persephone, 17 août 2011 - 05:41 .

[Xilizhra]

What I would have liked is Hawke attempting to do something, even if he failed. Why? Because that makes it *much* more tragic. The fact that you tried and still failed. Hawke did nothing.

Do nothing? What about finding Gascard and trying to track Leandra via blood magic?

Which is just killing in droves. That's it (with the possible option of avoiding killing a final wave). Not because he is a savvy businessman. Not because he is intelligent. Not because of his connections. Not because of his values. Not because of the wealth we never see. Just by the simple fact that he is a good killer. And that is almost like a super hero story. People listen because you are an impressive brute and nothing more.

You know, you seem to keep forgetting that Hawke is an extremely good squad tactician. Aside from that... Hawke's values do directly lead into means to shape smaller things, like the templar/mage side quests. Hawke's connections are all that lead into the qunari affair, and later bring her into the Meredith/Orsino conflict. The wealth and influence are also reasons why a mage Hawke won't be simply brought down by the templars, thus being a vital factor as well. Business... well, that was never part of the game, but never part of Origins either. As for intelligence, I listed several things earlier that you may or may not agree with.

[Blastback]

Persephone wrote...



No. I did to show how that is true for pretty much any Bioware hero. Even the bloody Bhaalspawn who'd be nothing without Gorion.

That's not true!  That's impossible!

Cookies for whoever id's the quote.

I'll agree that the involvment of quest givers does not make Hawke powerless or ineffectual at all.  It does mean that s/he isn't someone that works alone.  For acts 1 and 2, other people might lay the foundation, but it is always Hawle that comes throught.

Act three now, is another story.

[Aradace]

Persephone wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The problem is you aren't RPing.  You are watching a dimwitted fool blunder his way into power because he's good at killing.

Sorry to break it to you but there it is.

-Polaris

How did the Warden become the Warden? Because they where good at killing and impressed Duncan

Actually no.  DAO goes into good detail on how you become a warden and good at killing is the least of it for many of the origin stories.  Duncan is looking for a 'mysterious' "it" and you've got it.  Many of the origin stories have relatively little killing really. and even then, Duncan makes it clear that the combat is only on axis about how he determines who will be a warden, not the test itself.

-Polaris

Well, he sure got lucky with you then, given how his other chosen ones end up. YAY Plot Armor! (Epic fail on his part there. Never mind that my opinion of Duncan as a Commander is very low at this point)

I was never impressed with Duncan to begin with really. I found him to be the "Kaiden Alenko" of Origins. Bland and boring.

Modifié par Aradace, 17 août 2011 - 05:44 .

[Monica21]

Blastback wrote...
 That's not true!  That's impossible!

Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back. Luke's response after Vader says "I am your father."

All too easy.  

[Persephone]

alex90c wrote...

Thirdly, yes I am biased. I thought you would have gathered that after seeing me do nothing but rip in to DA2 non-stop for over a month.


Petrice: Hey Hawke, escort this Qunari for me.
Hawke: Nah I don't wanna.
Petrice: BUT THE PLOT DICTATES TROLOLOLOLO
Hawke: Ok

Eamon: Alistair should be King.
Warden: NO. *Cites reasons*
Eamon: BUT THE PLOT DICTATES TROLOLOLOLO
Warden: Ok

What you do with that forced coup is up to you, same with Ketojan.

As for the part I put in italics....yeah, sadly that's anything but productive.

[Realmzmaster]

IanPolaris wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Polaris - Im not saying that at all. (what I said was mainly in jest because of TW part lol) What I am saying is that DA is no longer a "C"Rpg. It's a multiplatform RPG. Your opinion is just as valid as mine. What I AM saying is that if that is the standard for a "C"Rpg, then perhaps you need to look at it as not being a CRPG anymore because technically, it's not.

No.  TECHNICALLY it is.  It is the sequel to DAO which definately is (unlike ME which was explicitly a hybrid from the start) and even Bioware said it was (roleplay Hawke's rise to power).  The problem is you aren't RPing.  You are watching a dimwitted fool blunder his way into power because he's good at killing.

Sorry to break it to you but there it is.

-Polaris

Which is the same as the Warden in DAO. They are both good at killing.  All of Biowares characters from BG1 through DA2 the main protangonists have been killing machines. All of the protagonists have been errand boys. The warden becomes the warden by chance and circumstance.  The warden gets a treaty and blunders his way to gather an army. Without said treaty the warden would be unable to get help from elves or dwavres.

Even then he does not know if the parties will honor the treaty. The only reason why they do so is because it is in their best interest, but only after he solves their problems which simply proves that the Blight was not really a big concern.

As I stated long ago on the DAO forum there is no sense of urgency in DAO. The ArchDemon waits for you to gather your army and go to the Landsmeet. Where everything you did beforehand is moot because you have to beat Loghain in a duel.

If Loghain wins. He leads the army. The elves and dwarves are no longer bound by the treaty since it is a Grey Warden treaty.

Both games (DAO and DA2) have problems in their delivery.  You like DAO better than DA2. I happen to like both games faults and all.

You think Hawke is a dim witted fool. I disagree. So we will have to agree to disagree.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

What I would have liked is Hawke attempting to do something, even if he failed. Why? Because that makes it *much* more tragic. The fact that you tried and still failed. Hawke did nothing.

Do nothing? What about finding Gascard and trying to track Leandra via blood magic?

You mean after sitting on his rear end for three solid years even after Emric showed him the building where the missing circle-mage (that started his investigation) had to be?  Hawke couldn't find a wretched trap door IN THREE YEARS?

-Polaris

[Mr.House]

IanPolaris wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The problem is you aren't RPing.  You are watching a dimwitted fool blunder his way into power because he's good at killing.

Sorry to break it to you but there it is.

-Polaris

How did the Warden become the Warden? Because they where good at killing and impressed Duncan

Actually no.  DAO goes into good detail on how you become a warden and good at killing is the least of it for many of the origin stories.  Duncan is looking for a 'mysterious' "it" and you've got it.  Many of the origin stories have relatively little killing really. and even then, Duncan makes it clear that the combat is only on axis about how he determines who will be a warden, not the test itself.

-Polaris

What DAO did you play? The one I have is that every orign started off with dialog then midway to the end invovled alot of killing to get to an objective. Don't even try to tell me any origin had little killing in it.

Hell the Warden kills more things then Hawke will dream of, Hawke is famous for two reasons.

1:She/he went into depper into the Deep Roads then anyone, including the Wardens thought possible
2: Saved Kirkwall from the Qunari

Being good at killing is not the only thing that Hawke is knowen for(The Warden is also good at killing), that excuse is used by people like you who love to bash the game six months later to try to make Hawke look like crap when it was no diffrent then the Warden. Buty alas the Warden is in DAO so the Warden get's a free pass.

Hawke has contacts, Hawke has changed the lifes of many people, just because Hawke did not change the world or save it like the Warden did does not mean anything in my books, more so when Hawke is not part of any order.

Modifié par Mr.House, 17 août 2011 - 05:49 .

[IanPolaris]

Persephone wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Thirdly, yes I am biased. I thought you would have gathered that after seeing me do nothing but rip in to DA2 non-stop for over a month.


Petrice: Hey Hawke, escort this Qunari for me.
Hawke: Nah I don't wanna.
Petrice: BUT THE PLOT DICTATES TROLOLOLOLO
Hawke: Ok

Eamon: Alistair should be King.
Warden: NO. *Cites reasons*
Eamon: BUT THE PLOT DICTATES TROLOLOLOLO
Warden: Ok

What you do with that forced coup is up to you, same with Ketojan.

As for the part I put in italics....yeah, sadly that's anything but productive.

Except in the end you can depose Alistair and have him executed.  You do have a real choice in that regard.  As for Arl Eamon, it's linear but done in a believable manner.  Only a high noble can call a Landsmeet and only Arl Eamon is available so what the Arl wants the Arl gets.  You can take care of that later, though.

-Polaris

[alex90c]

Eamon: Alistair should be King.
Warden: NO. *Cites reasons*
Eamon: BUT THE PLOT DICTATES TROLOLOLOLO
Warden: Ok

You don't have to make Alistair king. In my first playthrough I made Anora the ruler of Ferelden.

What you do with that forced coup is up to you, same with Ketojan.

...no.

As for the part I put in italics....yeah, sadly that's anything but productive.

Actually, if you scrape away the thick layer of vitriol, the things I say about the game aren't actually incorrect.

For example:

I HATE HAWKE SO MUCH HE JUST SITS THERE KILLING STUFF AND I HATE HIM WHAT A LOSER

*filter*

Hawke just sits there killing stuff.

Which he does.

[Realmzmaster]

alex90c wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...

Not my point.

What would have happened if Varric wasn't there?, if it's so true that the companions are not more important than Hawke.

So if they make a companion a quest giver, he's automatically more important than the PC?   What?

Varric offers to work with Hawke to get him to the Deep Roads.

Varric not doing that (keeping Hawke updated, e.g. about Deep Roads maps by Anders) means Hawke doesn't go on the expedition.

= Varric more important than Hawke.

= Hawke is once again shown to be an ineffectual wanker.

By that logic then Duncan is more important than the warden. Since Duncan picks the warden to become a warden. The warden does not become one unless selected. So plot wise Duncan is more important at the beginning.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 17 août 2011 - 05:50 .

[Persephone]

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Thirdly, yes I am biased. I thought you would have gathered that after seeing me do nothing but rip in to DA2 non-stop for over a month.


Petrice: Hey Hawke, escort this Qunari for me.
Hawke: Nah I don't wanna.
Petrice: BUT THE PLOT DICTATES TROLOLOLOLO
Hawke: Ok

Eamon: Alistair should be King.
Warden: NO. *Cites reasons*
Eamon: BUT THE PLOT DICTATES TROLOLOLOLO
Warden: Ok

What you do with that forced coup is up to you, same with Ketojan.

As for the part I put in italics....yeah, sadly that's anything but productive.

Except in the end you can depose Alistair and have him executed.  You do have a real choice in that regard.  As for Arl Eamon, it's linear but done in a believable manner.  Only a high noble can call a Landsmeet and only Arl Eamon is available so what the Arl wants the Arl gets.  You can take care of that later, though.

-Polaris

And you can decide what to do with Ketojan, deal with Qunari like Petrice wants you to or not. Real choice there.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
Do nothing? What about finding Gascard and trying to track Leandra via blood magic?

I was not talking about Leandra. In general.

If you want to talk about Leandra, Hawke not investigating the death of his mother after findign evidence impicating one from the Circle, just makes it a lazy moron.

You know, you seem to keep forgetting that Hawke is an extremely good squad tactician. Aside from that... Hawke's values do directly lead into means to shape smaller things, like the templar/mage side quests. Hawke's connections are all that lead into the qunari affair, and later bring her into the Meredith/Orsino conflict. The wealth and influence are also reasons why a mage Hawke won't be simply brought down by the templars, thus being a vital factor as well. Business... well, that was never part of the game, but never part of Origins either. As for intelligence, I listed several things earlier that you may or may not agree with.

Yea and the red power ranger is a good squad tactician...
There are little tactics in this game (and most bioware games).

The differences in Templar / mage sidequests are insignificant and not what I am talking about. Ultimately people go to Hawke because he is a good mass killer, obviously mages are not going to ask a pro-Templar Hawke to help them, not that it makes any difference. The Qunari affair is just more killing and the Arishok and Viscount don't care about your opinion (or ask and do the opposite anyways). She established those connections by just killing in the first place. Brought her to the Meredith / Orsino conflict as an errand girl and killer, and she became champion by killing. Wealth was found via killing only (Varric, Bartrand and Anders did most of the brain work), and there was no influence excerized on anyone. And a mage Hawke was never apprehended because the plot demands, the reason presented in the game is ****** poor imo.

The examples you provided are on such a small scale (some not even what I would consider intelligence), and they do not compensate for the rest, that they do not prevent me from looking at Hawke as a lazy imbecile.

[Xilizhra]

IanPolaris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What I would have liked is Hawke attempting to do something, even if he failed. Why? Because that makes it *much* more tragic. The fact that you tried and still failed. Hawke did nothing.

Do nothing? What about finding Gascard and trying to track Leandra via blood magic?

You mean after sitting on his rear end for three solid years even after Emric showed him the building where the missing circle-mage (that started his investigation) had to be?  Hawke couldn't find a wretched trap door IN THREE YEARS?

-Polaris

After looking at the foundry again, I think the trapdoor was made magically invisible, and that Hawke's and Aveline's conclusion was that the robed guy they saw took advantage of the demon attack to climb out a window or something.

[Persephone]

alex90c wrote...

Eamon: Alistair should be King.
Warden: NO. *Cites reasons*
Eamon: BUT THE PLOT DICTATES TROLOLOLOLO
Warden: Ok

You don't have to make Alistair king. In my first playthrough I made Anora the ruler of Ferelden.

What you do with that forced coup is up to you, same with Ketojan.

...no.

I HATE HAWKE SO MUCH HE JUST SITS THERE KILLING STUFF AND I HATE HIM WHAT A LOSER

*filter*

Hawke just sits there killing stuff.

Which he does.

Yes.

And no, mine sure doesn't.

[Mr.House]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Do nothing? What about finding Gascard and trying to track Leandra via blood magic?

I was not talking about Leandra. In general.

If you want to talk about Leandra, Hawke not investigating the death of his mother after findign evidence impicating one from the Circle, just makes it a lazy moron.

You can if you want, it's called headcanon it. There is not enough time to do that because after All that Remains, Petrice goes crazy and hell breaks lose afterwords. Hawke could have done a investagation in the three year gap or do nothing and go to noble parties. It's up to you.

[IanPolaris]

Mr.House wrote...

What DAO did you play? The one I have is that every orign started off with dialog then midway to the end invovled alot ofk illing to get to an objective. Don't even try to tell me any origin had little killing in it.

Yes there was some killing involved in all the origin stories, but if you listen to the story, it was only the axis of the test and not the test itself.  Ducan says that explicitly many times and some don't have that much killing (mage origin has fairly little for example...at least required killing).

Hell the Warden kills more thigs then Hawke will dream of, Hawke is famous for two reasons.

Yes, but that killing is for a reason.  There is a blight on you realize complete with hords of darkspawn.  Target rich environment.

1:She/he went into depper into the Deep Roads then anyone, including the Wardens thought possible
2: Saved Kirkwall from the Qunari

And you have no say in either of them.  Not really.

Being good at killing is not the only thing that Hawke is knowen for(The Warden is also good at killing), that excuse is used by people like you who love to bash the game six months later to try to make Hawke look like crap when it was no diffrent then the Warden. Buty alas the Warden is in DAO so the Warden get's a free pass.

The problem isn't what Hawke is famous for. The problem is we see a nobleman do NOTHING for years at a time even when he should (such as the serial killer or all of Act III).  How about the Fereldan refugees.  Well Hawke has his and can't be bothered.  What about the mage underground.  Not my problem. 

Hawke has contacts, Hawke has changed the lifes of many people, just because Hawke did not change the world or save it like the Warden did does not mean anything in my books, more so when Hawke is not part of any order.

THe problem is Hawke never USES them in a halfway proactive manner.  I honestly think DA2 is Ander's story, not Hawke's.

-Polaris

[Realmzmaster]

alex90c wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Everyone is looking at Hawke being powerless or not from his/her POV. Everyone has his/her opinion. I think Hawke is not powerless. His power lies in changing the individual and not the world. Others state that Hawke could have done more with his fame and money using them to gain city changing power.

Act 3 in DA2 was a weak point. The templar siding story was better written than the mage siding story. If Hawke sided with the templars he was Viscount and had most if not all the power in the city. If he sided with the mages he had to leave. The Divine was going to send more templars to re-take control of Kirkwall. Not a great ending , but I have played games with much worst endings.

I liked DA2. Some here did not like DA2. I respect your opinion and I hope you respect my opinion. You will give your opinion and I will tell you why I agree or disagree with it. One some points we will have to agree to disagree.

I have my POV and other forum mates have their POV. Neither is wrong or right. It is simply how we see it. But I will state my case if I do not or do agree with you. My opinion has as much right to shape future DA products as anyone else's.
I do not IMHO think that Hawke is powerless.

His only power in "changing the individual" is wadng in and killing goddamn individuals. You know ... groups of around 50 of them. Every two minutes. Non-stop.

I heard the HQ of the Kirkwall Parachute Division has been trying to retrieve the massive amount of dogtags off the bodies of all their dead men.

Much like the warden.