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[IanPolaris]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...


*Sigh*

O. = Definite proof implicating Orsino? Not really.

Implicating the Circle, as the letter is clearly from there.

But no, Hawke decides that investigating is too much work.

That's the motive YOU came up with. And we are talking in circles here, no pun intended.

Actually it's a conclusion that a rookie police detective would come up with.  Are the books from the circle library and a note signed "O" enough to prove circle complicity?  No.  Is it worth investigating?

HELL YES!  A proactive Hawke should have had the option to take these before both Emric and the Knight Commander and push for a full investigation....at least sometime during those three years.  Certainly this alone should have merited Emric far more official Templar and Guard support than he got.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

That's the motive YOU came up with. And we are talking in circles here, no pun intended.

Yes, because I am sure you can imagine a situation in your head that would make it look like Hawke was not a lazy fool.

Good for you, I don't want to play  the game in my head, I want to play the actual game. And what I saw was Hawke being tooo lazy to do anything.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 06:05 .

[Mr.House]

IanPolaris wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
The warden gets a treaty and blunders his way to gather an army. Without said treaty the warden would be unable to get help from elves or dwavres.

Except no one cared about the treaty (2 armies don't even have a treaty) and it's not enforceable by anyone, and the Warden had to help them before. Yes, he acted like an errand boy. But it also provided opportunity to be pro-active. To do something from your own volition.

Uh no KoP. Mages, dwavres and elves all bring up the treaty when you see them, they can not help you becauset hey are not fit to fight thus the Warden has to oslvet here problem so they have an army. After you solvet here problem, they go to war with you because of the treaty, this is made clear in the dialog.

Not always.  What you say is true of the Dwarves always (either Harrowmount or Bhelen).  That's not true of the Templars, Werewolves, or for that matter Arl Eamon's forces.  They are all recuitable but your treaty doesn't cover them.

-Polaris

Templars really have no choice in the matter, and it was a promise so the Warden would do there dirty work and kill the group a treaty belongs too. Arl Eamons army are humans, of ocurset hey are going to fight the Blight.  Eamon is part oft he conflict, he says fight, his men fight. If he says ******, they ******. Those are there duties.

[IanPolaris]

Persephone wrote...

Except that without the treaties, the Knight Commander would toss you out and you'd never even get the opportunity to meet the werewolves.

That's not true either.  You status as Warden gives you the right to be there esp in time of blight, and Gregoire aknowledges this.  Also if you are a mage, your status as a circle mages gives you a right to be there as well.

-Polaris

[Mr.House]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

That's the motive YOU came up with. And we are talking in circles here, no pun intended.

Yes, because I am sure you can imagine a situation in your head that would make it look like Hawke was not a laazy fool.

Good for you, i don't want to play games in my head, I want to play actual games.

I can, Hawke does it and get's stonewalled from Meredith because Meredith hates my Hawke, Hawke then grumbles bitterly and goes to get a drink.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

That's the motive YOU came up with. And we are talking in circles here, no pun intended.

Yes, because I am sure you can imagine a situation in your head that would make it look like Hawke was not a lazy fool.

Good for you, I don't want to play  the game in my head, I want to play the actual game. And what I saw was Hawke being tooo lazy to do anything.  

Your tone, I suspect, is becoming unnecessarily dismissive.

[Mr.House]

IanPolaris wrote...
Also if you are a mage, your status as a circle mages gives you a right to be there as well.

-Polaris

Not if you helped Jowan. If you where not a Warden and lacked treaties, they would have locked you up right there.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

That's the motive YOU came up with. And we are talking in circles here, no pun intended.

Yes, because I am sure you can imagine a situation in your head that would make it look like Hawke was not a lazy fool..  

Yes, I actually can, given that I have actually lost my mother, you know? So back off there, hon.

[IanPolaris]

Mr.House wrote...

Templars really have no choice in the matter, and it was a promise so the Warden would do there dirty work and kill the group a treaty belongs too. Arl Eamons army are humans, of ocurset hey are going to fight the Blight.  Eamon is part oft he conflict, he says fight, his men fight. If he says ******, they ******. Those are there duties.

Sure they do.  The Templars could have told the Warden to buzz off even after annulling the tower.  Gregoire isn't that kind of person, but some other KCs could well be (someone named Meredith comes to mind....)  There is no force the Warden can bring legally or physically that can force the Templars to join his army but they do anyway because it's the right thing to do. Same with the Werewolves.  The same applies to Arl Eamon.  He could tell the Warden to take a hike but doesn't.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mr.House wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Not always.  What you say is true of the Dwarves always (either Harrowmount or Bhelen).  That's not true of the Templars, Werewolves, or for that matter Arl Eamon's forces.  They are all recuitable but your treaty doesn't cover them.

-Polaris

Templars really have no choice in the matter, and it was a promise so the Warden would do there dirty work and kill the group a treaty belongs too. Arl Eamons army are humans, of ocurset hey are going to fight the Blight.  Eamon is part oft he conflict, he says fight, his men fight. If he says ******, they ******. Those are there duties.

Them having no choice is irrelevent, the point was, the treaty does not cover them.

Yes, you kill to get them. But some of those quests offered you ways to display some skill other than murdering people, like I listed before. As well as provide you an opportunity to do something out of your own volition. Especially the werewolf case. 

In Redcliffe for instance, you can persuade people to fight, you can find oil to be used as a weapon, you can boost the morale of knights...etc. As in, you show some semblance of leadership.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

That's the motive YOU came up with. And we are talking in circles here, no pun intended.

Yes, because I am sure you can imagine a situation in your head that would make it look like Hawke was not a lazy fool..  

Yes, I actually can, given that I have actually lost my mother, you know? So back off there, hon.

Sigh...

I am talking about Hawke having evidence implicating the Circle to the death of his mother. Your situation is entirely different.

[IanPolaris]

Mr.House wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Also if you are a mage, your status as a circle mages gives you a right to be there as well.

-Polaris

Not if you helped Jowan. If you where not a Warden and lacked treaties, they would have locked you up right there.

Actually, you were never formally kicked out of the circle (declared apostate).  True it's because Duncan short-stopped him, but even if you helped Jowan, a hostile Gregoire still aknowledges your legal rights and sounds (understandably) like he's chewing nails doing so.

-Polaris

[Il Divo]

Realmzmaster wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

csfteeeer wrote...

Not my point.

What would have happened if Varric wasn't there?, if it's so true that the companions are not more important than Hawke.

So if they make a companion a quest giver, he's automatically more important than the PC?   What?

Varric offers to work with Hawke to get him to the Deep Roads.

Varric not doing that (keeping Hawke updated, e.g. about Deep Roads maps by Anders) means Hawke doesn't go on the expedition.

= Varric more important than Hawke.

= Hawke is once again shown to be an ineffectual wanker.

By that logic then Duncan is more important than the warden. Since Duncan picks the warden to become a warden. The warden does not become one unless selected. So plot wise Duncan is more important at the beginning.

I agree, that logic is non-sensical. Imagine applying it to KotOR.

Mission opens a security door. If she does not do that, the PC doesn't enter the Vulkar Base.

Ad infinitum.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Your tone, I suspect, is becoming unnecessarily dismissive.

Perhaps, because what I am getting is this:

"'It's your fault Hawke is that way. "

[Persephone]

Mr.House wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

That's the motive YOU came up with. And we are talking in circles here, no pun intended.

Yes, because I am sure you can imagine a situation in your head that would make it look like Hawke was not a laazy fool.

Good for you, i don't want to play games in my head, I want to play actual games.

I can, Hawke does it and get's stonewalled from Meredith because Meredith hates my Hawke, Hawke then grumbles bitterly and goes to get a drink.

When I lost my mother, I wanted to do nothing. I wanted to curl up in a corner and disappear. I cared about nothing and no one. At first I actually wanted to follow her, screw life. (Back then) Guess that makes me a lazy fool...well, I can live with that.

[Nerevar-as]

Mr.House wrote...

What DAO did you play? The one I have is that every orign started off with dialog then midway to the end invovled alot of killing to get to an objective. Don't even try to tell me any origin had little killing in it.

Hell the Warden kills more things then Hawke will dream of, Hawke is famous for two reasons.

1:She/he went into depper into the Deep Roads then anyone, including the Wardens thought possible
2: Saved Kirkwall from the Qunari

Being good at killing is not the only thing that Hawke is knowen for(The Warden is also good at killing), that excuse is used by people like you who love to bash the game six months later to try to make Hawke look like crap when it was no diffrent then the Warden. Buty alas the Warden is in DAO so the Warden get's a free pass.

Hawke has contacts, Hawke has changed the lifes of many people, just because Hawke did not change the world or save it like the Warden did does not mean anything in my books, more so when Hawke is not part of any order.

The problem with Hawke is that most significant things in DA2 happen regardless of his/her actions. For example, Hawke only became Champion because Orsino and Meredith would rather defer to an stranger than stop bickering.

In fact the game is about the Seeker discovering that the person she thought masterminded everything was little more than a bystander in the events. Hawke can´t even claim to have accidentally caused things. I would say the writing team had a good idea of where they wanted to take Thedas status quo after the game events but lacked skill and/or time to write a good story with a proper main character around it.

[Mr.House]

IanPolaris wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Templars really have no choice in the matter, and it was a promise so the Warden would do there dirty work and kill the group a treaty belongs too. Arl Eamons army are humans, of ocurset hey are going to fight the Blight.  Eamon is part oft he conflict, he says fight, his men fight. If he says ******, they ******. Those are there duties.

Sure they do.  The Templars could have told the Warden to buzz off even after annulling the tower.  Gregoire isn't that kind of person, but some other KCs could well be (someone named Meredith comes to mind....)  There is no force the Warden can bring legally or physically that can force the Templars to join his army but they do anyway because it's the right thing to do. Same with the Werewolves.  The same applies to Arl Eamon.  He could tell the Warden to take a hike but doesn't.

-Polaris

Eamon does not say that because Ferelden is threaten, you just saved his life and knows that Loghain tried to kill him. Plus he sees the Warden as a tool to put Alistair on the throne so he can controll the crown indirclty, Eamon holds your hand for pratcily the rest of the game.

Also guess what? Do you know how you saved his life? BY KILLING.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Your tone, I suspect, is becoming unnecessarily dismissive.

Perhaps, because what I am getting is this:

"'It's your fault Hawke is that way. "

And what I'm getting is "All of your Hawkes are that way too."

[Realmzmaster]

IanPolaris wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Everyone is looking at Hawke being powerless or not from his/her POV. Everyone has his/her opinion. I think Hawke is not powerless. His power lies in changing the individual and not the world. Others state that Hawke could have done more with his fame and money using them to gain city changing power.

Act 3 in DA2 was a weak point. The templar siding story was better written than the mage siding story. If Hawke sided with the templars he was Viscount and had most if not all the power in the city. If he sided with the mages he had to leave. The Divine was going to send more templars to re-take control of Kirkwall. Not a great ending , but I have played games with much worst endings.

I liked DA2. Some here did not like DA2. I respect your opinion and I hope you respect my opinion. You will give your opinion and I will tell you why I agree or disagree with it. One some points we will have to agree to disagree.

I have my POV and other forum mates have their POV. Neither is wrong or right. It is simply how we see it. But I will state my case if I do not or do agree with you. My opinion has as much right to shape future DA products as anyone else's.
I do not IMHO think that Hawke is powerless.

His only power in "changing the individual" is wadng in and killing goddamn individuals. You know ... groups of around 50 of them. Every two minutes. Non-stop.

I heard the HQ of the Kirkwall Parachute Division has been trying to retrieve the massive amount of dogtags off the bodies of all their dead men.

Much like the warden.

Actually no.  The warden has both heavy world and individual impacts where your choices really do matter and you can call in favors.  Admittedly the end result (killing the AD) is the same, but the illusion of choice is far superior in DAO.

-Polaris

The warden like Hawke is still killing a mountain of enemies. The warden is an errand boy solvings other group's problems. The heavy world changing is an illusion that the warden really does not or should not care about.

The warden needs to gather an army it does not matter who you put on the throne  for the dwarves or the humans. It does not matter what side you choose with the elves or werewolves. You get an army to fight the ArchDemon either way.  And that basically what matters. The rest of it is simply the stuff you have to do as errand boy to get your army.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

That's the motive YOU came up with. And we are talking in circles here, no pun intended.

Yes, because I am sure you can imagine a situation in your head that would make it look like Hawke was not a lazy fool..  

Yes, I actually can, given that I have actually lost my mother, you know? So back off there, hon.

Sigh...

I am talking about Hawke having evidence implicating the Circle to the death of his mother. Your situation is entirely different.

No. It isn't. People grieve differently and do not follow any logic as they do so.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

When I lost my mother, I wanted to do nothing. I wanted to curl up in a corner and disappear. I cared about nothing and no one. At first I actually wanted to follow her, screw life. (Back then) Guess that makes me a lazy fool...well, I can live with that.

That was certainly not what I was saying and I apologize if I gave that impression.

If your mother was murdered, and you have evidence implicating someone that could continue to murder peole and you do strictly nothing with it? Yes, then you'd be a lazy fool in my eyes.

[Persephone]

IanPolaris wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Also if you are a mage, your status as a circle mages gives you a right to be there as well.

-Polaris

Not if you helped Jowan. If you where not a Warden and lacked treaties, they would have locked you up right there.

Actually, you were never formally kicked out of the circle (declared apostate).  True it's because Duncan short-stopped him, but even if you helped Jowan, a hostile Gregoire still aknowledges your legal rights and sounds (understandably) like he's chewing nails doing so.

-Polaris

He aknowledges your right once you enforce the treaty, you mean?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Your tone, I suspect, is becoming unnecessarily dismissive.

Perhaps, because what I am getting is this:

"'It's your fault Hawke is that way. "

And what I'm getting is "All of your Hawkes are that way too."

Yes, because that's what the game is.

I am not here to discuss head canon.

[IanPolaris]

Mr.House wrote...

Eamon does not say that because Ferelden is threaten, you just saved his life and knows that Loghain tried to kill him. Plus he sees the Warden as a tool to put Alistair on the throne so he can controll the crown indirclty, Eamon holds your hand for pratcily the rest of the game.

Bann Teagan could easily have taken Loghain's word and tossed you out on your ear.  The big reason he didn't was becasue he didn't trust Loghain and was desperate for help.  You CAN hang the village out to dry, you know.  (In DA2, you'd be forced to save the village anyway....see Sheparding Wolves).

Also guess what? Do you know how you saved his life? BY KILLING.

Yes, but you do more than simply killing and that's the point (or at least you are given a convincing illusion it matters).

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Your tone, I suspect, is becoming unnecessarily dismissive.

Perhaps, because what I am getting is this:

"'It's your fault Hawke is that way. "

And what I'm getting is "All of your Hawkes are that way too."

Yes, because that's what the game is.

I am not here to discuss head canon.

So, as your Hawke has none of that going for him and simply is a lazy fool in your own mind, stick to him and try to avoid sweeping generalizations to other Hawkes. I suspect the hostility will decrease; I wouldn't even be in here if I didn't feel some blows aimed at my own Hawke.