551 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Not exactly. I said that grief varies from person to person. Hawke was (And we see that IN GAME) distraught at Leandra's death. Not wanting to involve himself in something OTHERS can and SHOULD do (Templars, Guards. Who go there/are reported to) is a natural reaction, not proof of laziness. Just as wanting revenge would be another valid way of grieving.

So you are telling me in this particular case, everyone else is incompetent and lazy. Ok.

The Templars always were in the DA universe. The guards....no more than the police who also will not be able to catch every killer out there. Famous example with better forensics established: Jack The Ripper. And a whole NATION wanted to find that dude. So Victorian England was incompetent & lazy? Yeah, no.

[phaonica]

Yikes, this thread wasn't easy to catch up on...

DuskWarden wrote...

Furthermore, there are several places in the game where I really want to do something, and am left with an incredible feeling of frustration when Hawke stands there gawking, ...I accept that player agency is limited in every game, but in virtually no other game have I seen so many choices that should have been presented to the player, and the lack of those choices is what damned Hawke as a character for me. Obviously this is a highly personal thing, as different people may have felt that Hawke acted in line with their wishes. There is a user on these forums who disliked that he was forced to join the Wardens for example, so this kind of thing is present in both games - I just feel that the problem is more prevalent in DA:2.

I agree. I accept that a player can't do just anything they want to in a game, and I suppose I envy those whose Hawke fell in line with how they wanted to play. For me, there are too many instances in DA2 (even considering multiple playthroughs) where I thought the most logical paths for my characters were either blocked by NPCs who told me "no that's not the way this story goes", or just were nonexistant options. That made me feel like Hawke was powerless. I feel, however, that that is not entirely a personal problem because by the mechanics of the game, I feel that I cannot play a proactive Hawke.

And, ultimately, imo, yes DAO had similar issues. I had hoped that DA2 was going to be *better* about player agency, but imo, it was not.

[Fallstar]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I guess I will have to agree to disagree with the OP and other s on this thread. I do not see Hawke as powerless. Nothing stated here has changed that opinion. As I stated before your POV is different from mine. It does not make your wrong it does not make my opinion wrong.

I respect the opinions express here even if I disagree with them. Nothing I state will change your opinion and nothing you state will change my opinion. I am going back to playing DA2. I am into my eighth playthrough.

But have no fear, I shall return.

The majority of us are not saying that Hawke is powerless, as he clearly isn't. He has a great deal of power, its just that he doesn't seem to use it. The Warden could use his influence in several situations, going so far as to decide the fate of entire kingdoms. Where does Hawke make decisions on this magnitude? He has the ability to; as champion, he is popular enough with the people, and powerful enough as a character to simply remove the Templars from Kirkwall, declare himself Viscount and free the mages. But does he? No. Because if he did, Anders would not have needed to start a war, which is probably going to play an important role to the future of the franchise. So you can argue that it is a fault of Hawke as a character, or that it is a deep flaw in the writing (or maybe you felt that your Hawke did exactly what you wanted him to). 

A lot of events in DA:2 feel forced; event X must happen, therefore the player cannot do Y, even if Y is a perfectly reasonable thing to do that could save the lives of thousands and remove a tyrannical organisation. In my opinion, this lack of choice was down to the short development cycle - at the end of the day, there's only so many man hours and the team had to prioritise what the thought was more important. But to me, a better allocation of resources would have been to make fewer changes to combat, and have a more branching storyline.

Although I would like to say, for the record, that I think Legacy is a giant step in the right direction; Hawke makes multiple choices that have an impact on gameplay, and I hope Bioware continues in this vein in future content.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 17 août 2011 - 07:09 .

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'd imagine Hawke should be able to tell that a person who is now acting dramatically different than before, and is talking like the antagonist Hawke faced off with moments ago, should have been a clue. I'm a little tired of Hawke being so ineffectual and foolish.

Well, he gives an explanation, and even if you have a Grey Warden sibling, they don't consider it implausible. What can you say? "No, stay here and die!"?

Larius gives a lousy explanation, and Hawke (as usual) does nothing. I'm tired of Hawke doing nothing - I want an intelligent and proactive protagonist. Is that honestly too much to ask for? It's not like possessed Larius couldn't escape without making Hawke look like a fool. I wanted a protagonist who could be a leader to the mages - now I'm not even sure I'd trust Hawke to make waffles in the morning.

Mr.House wrote...

Jeneka is more subtle then Larius is by far. Same voice, not acting wierd, the only strange thing is her last word and a smile that Hawke does not see.

True, it's more subtle with Jeneka.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

The Templars always were in the DA universe. The guards....no more than the police who also will not be able to catch every killer out there. Famous example with better forensics established: Jack The Ripper. And a whole NATION wanted to find that dude. So Victorian England was incompetent & lazy? Yeah, no.

Except we are talking about someone who is trapped in a tower, with Templars who can sense magic, use phylacteries and the like. Poor analogy.

[phaonica]

Persephone wrote...

The Templars always were in the DA universe. The guards....no more than the police who also will not be able to catch every killer out there. Famous example with better forensics established: Jack The Ripper. And a whole NATION wanted to find that dude. So Victorian England was incompetent & lazy? Yeah, no.

But do you not think that if you discover that the Templars/Guards investigators haven't found anything, that wanting to take the investigation into your own hands, and not wanting to settle with accusing somone of doing their job poorly, is not also a valid reaction?

[Blastback]

Persephone wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

There were books as well. But that's circumstantial at best. Cases with more evidence and more advanced forensics have remained unsolved. I.E. The Zodiac Killer.

Actually just tracking the missing mage's phylactery to that warehouse and the presence of demons (sorry for the minor spoilers) should have been enough for Meredith to authorize a full scale cleansing of that warehouse/foundry.  No way a secret door should have remained secret for THREE YEARS esp not with Hawke's supposed pull.  At the very least Hawke should have had the opporuntity to go see the KC with Emric and demand (based on his very real encounter with Shades), official action and support (or at least a thorough search).

-Polaris

I would have liked such an option, I will say that. Just seeing Anders squirm/flip would be worth it.

That would be real fun.

Ideally, we would have had an option of how to let Hawke grieve, including initaiting an investigation, only for him/her not to find anything due to Orsino using his power and influence to cover his tracks too darn well.

[Persephone]

DuskWarden wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I guess I will have to agree to disagree with the OP and other s on this thread. I do not see Hawke as powerless. Nothing stated here has changed that opinion. As I stated before your POV is different from mine. It does not make your wrong it does not make my opinion wrong.

I respect the opinions express here even if I disagree with them. Nothing I state will change your opinion and nothing you state will change my opinion. I am going back to playing DA2. I am into my eighth playthrough.

But have no fear, I shall return.

The majority of us are not saying that Hawke is powerless, as he clearly isn't. He has a great deal of power, its just that he doesn't seem to use it. The Warden could use his influence in several situations, going so far as to decide the fate of entire kingdoms. Where does Hawke make decisions on this magnitude? He has the ability to; as champion, he is popular enough with the people, and powerful enough as a character to simply remove the Templars from Kirkwall, declare himself Viscount and free the mages. But does he? No. Because if he did, Anders would not have needed to start a war, which is probably going to play an important role to the future of the franchise.

Although I would like to say, for the record, that I think Legacy is a giant step in the right direction; Hawke makes multiple choices that have an impact on gameplay, and I hope Bioware continues in this vein in future content.

Not exactly. Removing the Templars would be no simple feat at all, look at the Magi boon in Origins going awry and that was granted by a KING/QUEEN to the savior of his/her country. Would be like....I dunno, a 16th century monarch simply removing the Inquisition. Hello, the Pope? (The Divine) The faithful who'd rebel? The mage haters who'd rebel?

I agree re: Legacy though.:happy:

[IanPolaris]

Blastback wrote...

That would be real fun.

Ideally, we would have had an option of how to let Hawke grieve, including initaiting an investigation, only for him/her not to find anything due to Orsino using his power and influence to cover his tracks too darn well.

Yes, EXACTLY!  At least then we'll have had the option for Hawke to use his power and actually try....and failing...and in failing would fortell problems in the circle at the highest levels that we get no indication of right now.

I have no issue if Hawke is allowed to try something and it fails.  It's not being able to try that gets under my skin.

-Polaris

[phaonica]

DuskWarden wrote...

The majority of us are not saying that Hawke is powerless, as he clearly isn't. He has a great deal of power, its just that he doesn't seem to use it. The Warden could use his influence in several situations, going so far as to decide the fate of entire kingdoms. Where does Hawke make decisions on this magnitude? He has the ability to; as champion, he is popular enough with the people, and powerful enough as a character to simply remove the Templars from Kirkwall, declare himself Viscount and free the mages. But does he? No. Because if he did, Anders would not have needed to start a war, which is probably going to play an important role to the future of the franchise. So you can argue that it is a fault of Hawke as a character, or that it is a deep flaw in the writing (or maybe you felt that your Hawke did exactly what you wanted him to). 

A lot of events in DA:2 feel forced; event X must happen, therefore the player cannot do Y, even if Y is a perfectly reasonable thing to do that could save the lives of thousands and remove a tyrannical organisation. In my opinion, this lack of choice was down to the short development cycle - at the end of the day, there's only so many man hours and the team had to prioritise what the thought was more important. But to me, a better allocation of resources would have been to make fewer changes to combat, and have a more branching storyline.

Although I would like to say, for the record, that I think Legacy is a giant step in the right direction; Hawke makes multiple choices that have an impact on gameplay, and I hope Bioware continues in this vein in future content.

I agree. Again.

[Persephone]

phaonica wrote...

Persephone wrote...

The Templars always were in the DA universe. The guards....no more than the police who also will not be able to catch every killer out there. Famous example with better forensics established: Jack The Ripper. And a whole NATION wanted to find that dude. So Victorian England was incompetent & lazy? Yeah, no.

But do you not think that if you discover that the Templars/Guards investigators haven't found anything, that wanting to take the investigation into your own hands, and not wanting to settle with accusing somone of doing their job poorly, is not also a valid reaction?

Sure it is. If I am playing my character that way. And at least two of my Hawkes WERE mad at not getting revenge.

[Thor Rand Al]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...
Obviously the evidence is given to Meredith, how else could she stand there n say to your own face that your own mother died of bloodmagic.

The evidence is not needed to know blood magic is involved. The evidence implicated the Circle, aka implicated the Circle with a bloog mage. Are you honestly telling me that Meredith did nothing with that if she knew?
Investigations could have been made. It's not an excuse to do nothing.

@ Persephone.
I dismiss most of them because it all goes back to the same thing. Headcanon . How am I supposed to discuss this? It's not in the game. It's great that you enjoy it, fine. It's great that you can headcanon. But that's not an argument when it comes to ther actual game.

I am dismissing them, because it's not what I am talking about.

How do you know she did nothing n seriously yes the letter was from someone in the Circle but again only evidence there is is with someone with the letter O.  That could of been one of the many reason's she tightened her fist on the mages because of moms death n the use of blood magic.  We know for a fact she tightens her fist around the mages.  Everyone says it and she and Orsino have this dispute at the beginnin of act 3.  Again how do you know that moms death and the fact that blood magic was involved n that it stemmed from somewhere in the circle didn't have somethin to do with her fist tightening???

[phaonica]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes, EXACTLY!  At least then we'll have had the option for Hawke to use his power and actually try....and failing...and in failing would fortell problems in the circle at the highest levels that we get no indication of right now.

I have no issue if Hawke is allowed to try something and it fails.  It's not being able to try that gets under my skin.

-Polaris

I would add that his failing also has to make sense. Being told by templars "We'll look into it" and then the subject being dropped, for example, is not imo an acceptable way to fail.

[IanPolaris]

phaonica wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes, EXACTLY!  At least then we'll have had the option for Hawke to use his power and actually try....and failing...and in failing would fortell problems in the circle at the highest levels that we get no indication of right now.

I have no issue if Hawke is allowed to try something and it fails.  It's not being able to try that gets under my skin.

-Polaris

I would add that his failing also has to make sense. Being told by templars "We'll look into it" and then the subject being dropped, for example, is not imo an acceptable way to fail.

Agreed.

-Polaris

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

The Templars always were in the DA universe. The guards....no more than the police who also will not be able to catch every killer out there. Famous example with better forensics established: Jack The Ripper. And a whole NATION wanted to find that dude. So Victorian England was incompetent & lazy? Yeah, no.

Except we are talking about someone who is trapped in a tower, with Templars who can sense magic, use phylacteries and the like. Poor analogy.

There are countless phylacteries. And many mages. Do we just pick one? Or torture them all until one confesses? And if Gascard and Quentin are apostates, who's to say where they got those books from, they aren't unique. And that note is not helping either. And Jack left a MOUNTAIN of evidence, never mind several EYE WITNESSES.

[Fallstar]

Persephone wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I guess I will have to agree to disagree with the OP and other s on this thread. I do not see Hawke as powerless. Nothing stated here has changed that opinion. As I stated before your POV is different from mine. It does not make your wrong it does not make my opinion wrong.

I respect the opinions express here even if I disagree with them. Nothing I state will change your opinion and nothing you state will change my opinion. I am going back to playing DA2. I am into my eighth playthrough.

But have no fear, I shall return.

The majority of us are not saying that Hawke is powerless, as he clearly isn't. He has a great deal of power, its just that he doesn't seem to use it. The Warden could use his influence in several situations, going so far as to decide the fate of entire kingdoms. Where does Hawke make decisions on this magnitude? He has the ability to; as champion, he is popular enough with the people, and powerful enough as a character to simply remove the Templars from Kirkwall, declare himself Viscount and free the mages. But does he? No. Because if he did, Anders would not have needed to start a war, which is probably going to play an important role to the future of the franchise.

Although I would like to say, for the record, that I think Legacy is a giant step in the right direction; Hawke makes multiple choices that have an impact on gameplay, and I hope Bioware continues in this vein in future content.

Not exactly. Removing the Templars would be no simple feat at all, look at the Magi boon in Origins going awry and that was granted by a KING/QUEEN to the savior of his/her country. Would be like....I dunno, a 16th century monarch simply removing the Inquisition. Hello, the Pope? (The Divine) The faithful who'd rebel? The mage haters who'd rebel?

I agree re: Legacy though.:happy:

Well, from a blood mage's point of view, the templars won't pose of problem when they're dead . And the champion is a rank granted based on services to Kirkwall; immediately after the Qunari battle, when everything was in disarray, I think Hawke could easily have gathered the support to overthrow the Templars. Especially if he could point to Chantry/Templar sympathetic figures such as Mothe Petrice who instigated the whole thing and caused the deaths of so many.

The nobles would fall in line behind their saviour, and the lower classes would look up to the champion who came from amongst them. I think most people in game are generally neutral in the Templar/Mage conflict, apart from those whose family members suffer due to the brutality of the Templars, allowing Hawke to easily gather people to his cause. (I'm not saying this kind of meta-analysis should be present in the game, that'd be going a bit too far I think )

[Persephone]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...
Obviously the evidence is given to Meredith, how else could she stand there n say to your own face that your own mother died of bloodmagic.

The evidence is not needed to know blood magic is involved. The evidence implicated the Circle, aka implicated the Circle with a bloog mage. Are you honestly telling me that Meredith did nothing with that if she knew?
Investigations could have been made. It's not an excuse to do nothing.

@ Persephone.
I dismiss most of them because it all goes back to the same thing. Headcanon . How am I supposed to discuss this? It's not in the game. It's great that you enjoy it, fine. It's great that you can headcanon. But that's not an argument when it comes to ther actual game.

I am dismissing them, because it's not what I am talking about.

How do you know she did nothing n seriously yes the letter was from someone in the Circle but again only evidence there is is with someone with the letter O.  That could of been one of the many reason's she tightened her fist on the mages because of moms death n the use of blood magic.  We know for a fact she tightens her fist around the mages.  Everyone says it and she and Orsino have this dispute at the beginnin of act 3.  Again how do you know that moms death and the fact that blood magic was involved n that it stemmed from somewhere in the circle didn't have somethin to do with her fist tightening???

Thus disputing the notion "Lulz, she just went nuts!". Very interesting, such frustration WOULD fan her paranoia, the city's fear and spiral out of control. Never thought of that before.

[phaonica]

Persephone wrote...

phaonica wrote...
But do you not think that if you discover that the Templars/Guards investigators haven't found anything, that wanting to take the investigation into your own hands, and not wanting to settle with accusing somone of doing their job poorly, is not also a valid reaction?

Sure it is. If I am playing my character that way. And at least two of my Hawkes WERE mad at not getting revenge.

But when I try to fill in the blanks as to why the investigation failed, it makes either the NPCs or Hawke look incompetant, to me. If they wanted some crazy, intricate plot involving a coverup by Orsino, they should have actually put that into the game to make up for the obviousness of the evidence.

Edit: I should rephrase. "... the seeming obviousness of the evidence" 

Modifié par phaonica, 17 août 2011 - 07:24 .

[Persephone]

DuskWarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I guess I will have to agree to disagree with the OP and other s on this thread. I do not see Hawke as powerless. Nothing stated here has changed that opinion. As I stated before your POV is different from mine. It does not make your wrong it does not make my opinion wrong.

I respect the opinions express here even if I disagree with them. Nothing I state will change your opinion and nothing you state will change my opinion. I am going back to playing DA2. I am into my eighth playthrough.

But have no fear, I shall return.

The majority of us are not saying that Hawke is powerless, as he clearly isn't. He has a great deal of power, its just that he doesn't seem to use it. The Warden could use his influence in several situations, going so far as to decide the fate of entire kingdoms. Where does Hawke make decisions on this magnitude? He has the ability to; as champion, he is popular enough with the people, and powerful enough as a character to simply remove the Templars from Kirkwall, declare himself Viscount and free the mages. But does he? No. Because if he did, Anders would not have needed to start a war, which is probably going to play an important role to the future of the franchise.

Although I would like to say, for the record, that I think Legacy is a giant step in the right direction; Hawke makes multiple choices that have an impact on gameplay, and I hope Bioware continues in this vein in future content.

Not exactly. Removing the Templars would be no simple feat at all, look at the Magi boon in Origins going awry and that was granted by a KING/QUEEN to the savior of his/her country. Would be like....I dunno, a 16th century monarch simply removing the Inquisition. Hello, the Pope? (The Divine) The faithful who'd rebel? The mage haters who'd rebel?

I agree re: Legacy though.:happy:

Well, from a blood mage's point of view, the templars won't pose of problem when they're dead . And the champion is a rank granted based on services to Kirkwall; immediately after the Qunari battle, when everything was in disarray, I think Hawke could easily have gathered the support to overthrow the Templars. Especially if he could point to Chantry/Templar sympathetic figures such as Mothe Petrice who instigated the whole thing and caused the deaths of so many.

The nobles would fall in line behind their saviour, and the lower classes would look up to the champion who came from amongst them. I think most people in game are generally neutral in the Templar/Mage conflict, apart from those whose family members suffer due to the brutality of the Templars, allowing Hawke to easily gather people to his cause. (I'm not saying this kind of meta-analysis should be present in the game, that'd be going a bit too far I think )

LOL

What about outright war with the Divine and all Chantry bound countries in Thedas though?

[Fallstar]

Persephone wrote...

Snip



LOL

What about outright war with the Divine and all Chantry bound countries in Thedas though?

Exalted March Expansion anyone? 

Modifié par DuskWarden, 17 août 2011 - 07:23 .

[Persephone]

phaonica wrote...

Persephone wrote...

phaonica wrote...
But do you not think that if you discover that the Templars/Guards investigators haven't found anything, that wanting to take the investigation into your own hands, and not wanting to settle with accusing somone of doing their job poorly, is not also a valid reaction?

Sure it is. If I am playing my character that way. And at least two of my Hawkes WERE mad at not getting revenge.

But when I try to fill in the blanks as to why the investigation failed, it makes either the NPCs or Hawke look incompetant, to me. If they wanted some crazy, intricate plot involving a coverup by Orsino, they should have actually put that into the game to make up for the obviousness of the evidence.

I would have liked a follow up to this plot line, phaonica, believe me. It is one of my fave plot lines in the game and seeing it fizzle out until *spoiler* was kinda sad. It just still works for me PERSONALLY.

[TEWR]

well this thread certainly jumped a lot of pages since I was last here. What's the discussion about now?

[Persephone]

DuskWarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Snip



LOL

What about outright war with the Divine and all Chantry bound countries in Thedas though?

Exalted March Expansion anyone? 

You are an evil genius and I love you...ahem.

Bioware, hire this person now!!!!

[Fallstar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well this thread certainly jumped a lot of pages since I was last here. What's the discussion about now?

I think we've established that Hawke has power, and are now arguing about his application (or lack thereof) of said power. With the inability to investigate the murder of Leandra being the main case in point.

[alex90c]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well this thread certainly jumped a lot of pages since I was last here. What's the discussion about now?

apparently Hawke actually serves a purpose besides killing stuff & being important dude #326236's lackey

and what duskwarden said

Modifié par alex90c, 17 août 2011 - 07:27 .