551 réponses à ce sujet

[devSin]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well this thread certainly jumped a lot of pages since I was last here. What's the discussion about now?

Chuck Norris?

[Persephone]

alex90c wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well this thread certainly jumped a lot of pages since I was last here. What's the discussion about now?

apparently Hawke actually serves a purpose besides killing stuff & being important dude #326236's lackey

and what duskwarden said

Yeah, just like the Warden. Funny stuff, really!

[alex90c]

Persephone wrote...

alex90c wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well this thread certainly jumped a lot of pages since I was last here. What's the discussion about now?

apparently Hawke actually serves a purpose besides killing stuff & being important dude #326236's lackey

and what duskwarden said

Yeah, just like the Warden. Funny stuff, really!

^oh and this repeated ad nauseam

even when i don't mention the warden

[Persephone]

alex90c wrote...

Persephone wrote...

alex90c wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well this thread certainly jumped a lot of pages since I was last here. What's the discussion about now?

apparently Hawke actually serves a purpose besides killing stuff & being important dude #326236's lackey

and what duskwarden said

Yeah, just like the Warden. Funny stuff, really!

^oh and this repeated ad nauseam

even when i don't mention the warden

The Warden is ominpotent and demands it! Er....

[Thor Rand Al]

LOL Persephone

[TEWR]

DuskWarden wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well this thread certainly jumped a lot of pages since I was last here. What's the discussion about now?

I think we've established that Hawke has power, and are now arguing about his application (or lack thereof) of said power. With the inability to investigate the murder of Leandra being the main case in point.

I thought as much. I'll still disagree on the power part, simply because it's not believable how he acquired it. But...


He had enough information to warrant a search. 

• He knew the trail ended in an old foundry in the "rusty metal spike district" as Varric put it
• He had influence with the Captain of the Guard. More than Emeric did.
• He saw Quentin fleeing the scene of the crime.
• He found a severed hand in the old foundry.
• He has found out 4 times prior to Leandra's abduction that lilies were involved in the kidnappings
• He had Gascard DuPuis to testify that someone was indeed kidnapping women using lilies.
• He found information incriminating the Circle

That is more than enough to warrant a search and more than likely turn up something. Even if he didn't turn up anything, I would've been content if he had at least attempted to figure out who assisted Quentin.

[TEWR]

devSin wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well this thread certainly jumped a lot of pages since I was last here. What's the discussion about now?

Chuck Norris?

They say that he has no chin underneath his beard. Only a third fist.

[Fallstar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well this thread certainly jumped a lot of pages since I was last here. What's the discussion about now?

I think we've established that Hawke has power, and are now arguing about his application (or lack thereof) of said power. With the inability to investigate the murder of Leandra being the main case in point.

I thought as much. I'll still disagree on the power part, simply because it's not believable how he acquired it. But...


He had enough information to warrant a search. 

• He knew the trail ended in an old foundry in the "rusty metal spike district" as Varric put it
• He had influence with the Captain of the Guard. More than Emeric did.
• He saw Quentin fleeing the scene of the crime.
• He found a severed hand in the old foundry.
• He has found out 4 times prior to Leandra's abduction that lilies were involved in the kidnappings
• He had Gascard DuPuis to testify that someone was indeed kidnapping women using lilies.
• He found information incriminating the Circle

That is more than enough to warrant a search and more than likely turn up something. Even if he didn't turn up anything, I would've been content if he had at least attempted to figure out who assisted Quentin.

             
[*]To clarify, I meant the player's inability to investigate - I too think Hawke should have investigated.

[LobselVith8]

Persephone wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

He aknowledges your right once you enforce the treaty, you mean?

No.  He aknowledges your right from the start when you insist on your legal rights as a Grey Warden.  He hates that (if you helped Jowan) but he aknowledges it.  The treaty has nothing to do with it and isn't binding on the Templars.

-Polaris

Um, no. The Warden cites the ancient treaty and THEN he backs down. Played it only recently.

I believe you're thinking of Carroll by the boat (who Shale can threaten to crush) who The Warden can provide papers to as proof that he's actually a Grey Warden. Greagoir will explain the situation with The Warden saying he's a mage or a Warden, and the Knight-Commander will explain the situation that transpired. (Points to avatar) Trust me.

[phaonica]

Persephone wrote...

I would have liked a follow up to this plot line, phaonica, believe me. It is one of my fave plot lines in the game and seeing it fizzle out until *spoiler* was kinda sad. It just still works for me PERSONALLY.

I'm glad you had fun!

For me, if this had been an isolated case, it wouldn't have been so bad. But it was pretty much a constant problem for me. Even if I came across side quests that were anti-Meredith, pro-mage, or pro-Templar, they were inconsequential and did not give me any sense of empowerment.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

He aknowledges your right once you enforce the treaty, you mean?

No.  He aknowledges your right from the start when you insist on your legal rights as a Grey Warden.  He hates that (if you helped Jowan) but he aknowledges it.  The treaty has nothing to do with it and isn't binding on the Templars.

-Polaris

Um, no. The Warden cites the ancient treaty and THEN he backs down. Played it only recently.

I believe you're thinking of Carroll by the boat (who Shale can threaten to crush) who The Warden can provide papers to as proof that he's actually a Grey Warden. Greagoir will explain the situation with The Warden saying he's a mage or a Warden, and the Knight-Commander will explain the situation that transpired. (Points to avatar) Trust me.

You don't even need it with Carroll.  You can intimidate/persude him (without the treaties), Shale can threaten to crush him, Sten can bribe him with a box of cookies, etc.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thor Rand Al wrote..
How do you know she did nothing n seriously yes the letter was from someone in the Circle but again only evidence there is is with someone with the letter O.  That could of been one of the many reason's she tightened her fist on the mages because of moms death n the use of blood magic.  We know for a fact she tightens her fist around the mages.  Everyone says it and she and Orsino have this dispute at the beginnin of act 3.  Again how do you know that moms death and the fact that blood magic was involved n that it stemmed from somewhere in the circle didn't have somethin to do with her fist tightening???

Because it's never mentionned. She never once made mention of the evidence when she wanted to investigate the Circle 3 years later. Why? That was the perfect evidence she needed. Why wait that long? Why not mention it and use it as proof that blood magic is in the Circle?

This is all headcanon you are coming up with to justify the absence of something that should have been in the game.

Since Meredith had virtually no character development, bringing the evidence in to develop her paranoia was something that could have been done (instead of the moronic idol) but was not.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 08:03 .

[Elhanan]

From what I recall, those being able to identify Mages were (non-exhaustive list):

* Ser Wesley - before Kirkwall
* Anders/ Justice - connection to the Fade
* A party Mage in a life and death struggle
* Fenris - after his initial quest

It seems time and again, the idea that someone should have been able to see this more clearly is mentioned. It seems that certain statements in DA2, Legacy, and perhaps Codex entries mention a blanket covering the awareness making discovery more difficult.

This notion intrigues me as there may have been purpose behind the idea that Mage Hawke and others could walk about Kirkwall so freely.

Modifié par Elhanan, 17 août 2011 - 08:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
There are countless phylacteries. And many mages. Do we just pick one? Or torture them all until one confesses? And if Gascard and Quentin are apostates, who's to say where they got those books from, they aren't unique. And that note is not helping either.

Meredith does not mind collective punishment. And I see no investigation in the first place for me to say they tried and failed. The letter clearly came from the Circle. An investigation was warranted and that was an opportunty Meredith would not have passed up.

And again, Jack had the advantage of being able to hide anywhere. We are talking about a mage who is confined in a damn tower.

I am not saying the investigation should have been a success. I am saying the evidence was utterly dismissed as non-existent by the game, which makes everyone, Hawke included, look lazy.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 08:13 .

[Thor Rand Al]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote..
How do you know she did nothing n seriously yes the letter was from someone in the Circle but again only evidence there is is with someone with the letter O.  That could of been one of the many reason's she tightened her fist on the mages because of moms death n the use of blood magic.  We know for a fact she tightens her fist around the mages.  Everyone says it and she and Orsino have this dispute at the beginnin of act 3.  Again how do you know that moms death and the fact that blood magic was involved n that it stemmed from somewhere in the circle didn't have somethin to do with her fist tightening???

Because it's never mentionned. She never once made mention of the evidence when she wanted to investigate thee Circle 3 years later. Why? That was the perfect evidence she needed.

This is all headcanon you are coming up with to justify something that should have been in the game.

And once again your looking for an excuse to not like DA2 that you can't see whats litereally right in front of you.  WHY DID MEREDITH'S "FIST TIGHTEN", (ya she's a luney) but something triggered her FIST being tightened around the mages.  That is written and told in the game, funny coincidence how it all happens after moms death and the fact that the Circle had something to do with it and there was blood magic involved.  Something besides that blasted idol made Meredith squeeze the mages harder.  She had proof that blood magic was involved and that someone from the Circle was helping Quentin.  That proof amonst other things happening in Kirkwall was the reason she came down harder on the mages.   You don't need to rp that fact, it's put out there in black and white.
I'm sorry it's not put on a silver platter right in front of your face.

[Tremere]

Vormaerin wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

The Warden is more irrelevant? The same guy/gal who gathered an army (of the player's chosing no less) to fight the Blight and either sacrifieced themselves or made a deal to create an old god baby? Yeah totally irrelevant... 

If Hawke never shows up in Kirkwall guess what? Anders still starts a war. Anders is far more important to the history of Thedas than Hawke will ever be. Isabella still steals from the Quanari and at best left Kirkwall in a mess, which doesn't matter because Anders is going to blow it up anyways. If you want to give Hawke credit for anything you can blame Hawke for allowing Flemeth to survive. Hawke is maybe the 5th or 6th most important person in DA2.

Yes, the Warden is more irrelevant.   The only reason you get credit for doing those things is because the person who should be doing them, namely Alistair, says "oh, you be the leader."   It doesn't even make any sense storywise that they pay attention to you instead of Alistair, given that he's senior to you and not a commoner and felon, like most of the warden origins. Besides which, either Alistair or Loghain are equally capable of doing the "godbaby or sacrifice" thing.

The Warden's only important because he's the POV character and the devs said  "people listen to you just because".


The thing that Hawke does that no one else seems likely to be able to do is deal with the Qunari.  No one else has the chance to sort it out without massive bloodshed.  Only Hawke, by virtue of his personality (not his job description), can convince Isabella to return the book (or not) and only Hawke is able to garner enough respect from the Arishok to settle the matter by a duel instead of all out war.

If you want an example of a quest that can play out multiple ways, the Sister Petrice story arc is a good example.   You can kill all the human fanatics, you can let them go, or you can join them in inciting the Qunari to violence.    There's also Feynriel, a quest with a number of distinct endings.  Grace's quest line plays differently depending on various decisions you make at various stages. 

Hawke is important because of what he does.  There's no Duncan to wander up and tap him with the "be important for no reason" wand.  100% of the Warden's significance comes from the fact that Duncan picked him or her to be Alistair's sidekick.  People listen to Hawke after he does impressive stuff, not before.  And not because he's part of some group or has papers telling people they have to.


IMHO, the real reason that some people are dissatisfied with Hawke compared to the Warden is not Hawke is less effective or has fewer choices.  Its entirely because the Warden story is a traditional epic with a clear cut  "yay, we win" moment at the end.   Hawke doesn't win in that sense.  The story is set up so that the villain wins no matter what you do, except perhaps be a knowing ally of the villain.

The devs want the world in a worse place, so they told a story of hopeless heroism and the best Hawke can do is save some lives along the way.   The villain, Anders, wins and gets his war.   A good friend of mine hated "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" the first time he saw it, because the heroes didn't win like you'd expect in a Hollywood movie.  DAO is a Hollywood style action movie.   DA2 is like one of those Chinese epics where the hero doesn't get a clean victory.

Well said. Well thought out... You have a fan!

Modifié par GabrielXL, 17 août 2011 - 08:13 .

[Tremere]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@GabrielXL - I think you may have attributed someone else's quote to me back there. I haven't mentioned Loghain here. Or if I did, I was somnambulistic at the time.

Ooops... Sorry about that. That wasn't my intention. I was just cutting and pasting the part I wanted to respond to. Mea culpa!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thor Rand Al wrote...
And once again your looking for an excuse to not like DA2 that you can't see whats litereally right in front of you.  WHY DID MEREDITH'S "FIST TIGHTEN", (ya she's a luney) but something triggered her FIST being tightened around the mages.  That is written and told in the game, funny coincidence how it all happens after moms death and the fact that the Circle had something to do with it and there was blood magic involved.  Something besides that blasted idol made Meredith squeeze the mages harder.  She had proof that blood magic was involved and that someone from the Circle was helping Quentin.  That proof amonst other things happening in Kirkwall was the reason she came down harder on the mages.

Show me right now where it is said that the evidence drove her to do this. Show me, if it's literraly right in front of me.

Why did her first tighten? Did you miss the mage resistance that was highly succesful initially? The overcrowding of the Circle? Her assumption of power after Dumar died? Those are what triggered her fist, the mage resistance especially, as Varric says.

And of course all that is more or less irrelevent due to the idol. It alone can be attributed to all this.

You don't need to rp that fact, it's put out there in black and white.

If it's a fact, show me. Where is it? who talks about? Who mentions it?

If you cannot support your claim, then your theory, while it has merit, is not a fact and does not excuse its absence in the game.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 08:21 .

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...

From what I recall, those being able to identify Mages were (non-exhaustive list):

* Ser Wesley - before Kirkwall
* Anders/ Justice - connection to the Fade
* A party Mage in a life and death struggle
* Fenris - after his initial quest

It seems time and again, the idea that someone should have been able to see this more clearly is mentioned. It seems that certain statements in DA2, Legacy, and perhaps Codex entries mention a blanket covering the awareness making discovery more difficult.

This notion intrigues me as there may have been purpose behind the idea that Mage Hawke and others could walk about Kirkwall so freely.

If you play a mage you're walking around Kirkwall with a staff strapped to your back. Even if people can't "see" the magey-ness about you, how do they ignore the staff strapped to your back? Is that magically invisible too?

[Nerevar-as]

Monica21 wrote...

If you play a mage you're walking around Kirkwall with a staff strapped to your back. Even if people can't "see" the magey-ness about you, how do they ignore the staff strapped to your back? Is that magically invisible too?

Gameplay-story segregation. DA2 has the worst I´ve seen in several years. What´s sad is that with all they copied from ME they could have used the multiple choice past so that Hawke wasn´t an apostate. Maybe having permission from the Ferelden Circle to take care of refugees or something like that.

[Thor Rand Al]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...
And once again your looking for an excuse to not like DA2 that you can't see whats litereally right in front of you.  WHY DID MEREDITH'S "FIST TIGHTEN", (ya she's a luney) but something triggered her FIST being tightened around the mages.  That is written and told in the game, funny coincidence how it all happens after moms death and the fact that the Circle had something to do with it and there was blood magic involved.  Something besides that blasted idol made Meredith squeeze the mages harder.  She had proof that blood magic was involved and that someone from the Circle was helping Quentin.  That proof amonst other things happening in Kirkwall was the reason she came down harder on the mages.

Show me right now where it is said that the evidence drove her to do this. Show me, if it's literraly right in front of me.

Why did her first tighten? Did you miss the mage resistance that was highly succesful initially? The overcrowding of the Circle? Her assumption of power after Dumar died? Those are what triggered her fist, the mage resistance especially, as Varric says.

And of course all that is more or less irrelevent due to the idol. It alone can be attributed to all this.

You don't need to rp that fact, it's put out there in black and white.

If it's a fact, show me. Where is it? who talks about? Who mentions it?

If you cannot support your claim, then your theory, while it has merit, is not a fact and does not excuse its absence in the game.

Varric: "The more she squeezed the mages, the more they resisted.  The more they resisted, the tighter she squeezed."

Meredith: "How well did you gaurd your own mother?  Did she not die at a blood mages's hands?
Cold corpses speak louder than abstract freedoms, do they not?
As long as that's true, Kirkwall needs it's templars more than it needs a new ruler."

You can't sit there and tell me mom dying at a blood mages hand and the evidence that someone in the Tower was helping Quentin had nothing to do with Meredith's "squeezing" or she would never of used Hawke's mother as an example.

[phaonica]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

You can't sit there and tell me mom dying at a blood mages hand and the evidence that someone in the Tower was helping Quentin had nothing to do with Meredith's "squeezing" or she would never of used Hawke's mother as an example.

I think she only brought up Hawke's mother as an example to bait Hawke, which she could do whether there was an investigation or not. If Hawke's mother had never died to a blood mage, Meredith would still have squeezed tighter.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Varric: "The more she squeezed the mages, the more they resisted.  The more they resisted, the tighter she squeezed."

And how does that in any way prove that Meredith had the evidence?

Meredith: "How well did you gaurd your own mother?  Did she not die at a blood mages's hands?
Cold corpses speak louder than abstract freedoms, do they not?
As long as that's true, Kirkwall needs it's templars more than it needs a new ruler."

You can't sit there and tell me mom dying at a blood mages hand and the evidence that someone in the Tower was helping Quentin had nothing to do with Meredith's "squeezing" or she would never of used Hawke's mother as an example.

How does that imply let alone prove that Meredith knew that it was someone in the Circle helping the killer?
She knowing it was a blood mage who killed her, is not her knowing it was someone in the Circle helping him. Otherwise, she would have said "Need I remind you that your mother's killer was assisted by someone in the Circle I am trying to keep order in." That evidence is what she could have used to shut Orsino up when she wanted to investigate the Circle. But she made no mention of it.

Yes, I can and am sitting telling you that you are confusing theory, even if probable, with fact. And justifying the absence of an explicit mention, which is the core of my argument. That it should have been explicit, and no amount of headcanon and speculation makes it so. 

Your theory should have been implemented in the game mind you for it's better than the idol, but is not at all.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 09:14 .

[LobselVith8]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Varric: "The more she squeezed the mages, the more they resisted.  The more they resisted, the tighter she squeezed."

Meredith: "How well did you gaurd your own mother?  Did she not die at a blood mages's hands?
Cold corpses speak louder than abstract freedoms, do they not?
As long as that's true, Kirkwall needs it's templars more than it needs a new ruler."

You can't sit there and tell me mom dying at a blood mages hand and the evidence that someone in the Tower was helping Quentin had nothing to do with Meredith's "squeezing" or she would never of used Hawke's mother as an example.

All you seem to have done is address that the mages in Kirkwall are being oppressed, which was the very reason Anders came to Kirkwall six years prior to Act III (at the behest of Karl).

[Thor Rand Al]

How does that NOT prove that Meredith knew, she obviously KNEW that Hawke's mom died of a blood mage or she wouldn't of said it n if she KNEW that then she would know the rest. You don't think that the evidence was turned over to her. Then how did she know mom died by a blood mages hand???