551 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

@TheAwesomologist - I don't mind paying money for DLCs and new games so long as the story is continuing to be told and told well, and I'm being entertained. But then, I felt that Hawke mattered. I was invested and immersed in that story. I went in with little expectations however and didn't pay much attention to the slogan and ads. I just wanted to play a kick*ss fantasy game and DA2 delivered, imo.

Not an exact parallel, but I waited years before the Star Wars original trilogy storyline fully manifested itself. Sometimes it takes awhile for the full story to be told. I'm fine with that if the story is good and I like the hero.

[Yrkoon]

Vrex_12 wrote...

Ramza_1 wrote...

didn't feel powerful (...)

Didn't feel powerfull? You're talking about being powerful by taking down tough opponets, like in DA:O right? While in DA2 opponets where easy to kill? Isn't that what powerful trully means? Taking on enemies with ease?

Since DA2 tries its hardest to be  so voguely political, I'd say, no, that's not what powerful means.

Powerful here means you become a political mover/shaker.  That your actions cause a ripple effect in the game  world and change the  political landscape.

Does that happen in DA2?  Nope.  The Mage vs. Templar civil war would have happened without Hawke.  In fact,  Hawke doesn't  even have the power to slow it down.


At least in Origins your warden can stop the blight in its tracks.... and  even dethrone the queen while he's at it.
 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 16 août 2011 - 02:19 .

[Ramza_1]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@TheAwesomologist - I don't mind paying money for DLCs and new games so long as the story is continuing to be told and told well, and I'm being entertained. But then, I felt that Hawke mattered. I was invested and immersed in that story. I went in with little expectations however and didn't pay much attention to the slogan and ads. I just wanted to play a kick*ss fantasy game and DA2 delivered, imo.

Not an exact parallel, but I waited years before the Star Wars original trilogy storyline fully manifested itself. Sometimes it takes awhile for the full story to be told. I'm fine with that if the story is good and I like the hero.

I don't know about your history with bioware, but I have played all of their games minus jade empire.

So, yes, I had expectations (no, they weren't for DAO2).  They were more about quality, polish, the impact of choice, winning characters (especially villains with deep, complex, or masked motivations and goals, or simple motivations shrouded in mystery.  Complexity.) and tactical gameplay.
DA2 is NOT a bad game.  It just pales in comparison to what came before, and what I know bioware can deliver if they devote enough *time* to their work.  

Modifié par Ramza_1, 16 août 2011 - 02:20 .

[Elhanan]

Ramza_1 wrote...

The choices were meaningless.

To you and some others; not to all. Butterfly effect perhaps....

Example: one playthrough I chose to let feynreal turn into an abomination.  I was so looking forward to meeting this hellishly powerful abomination later because of the opportunity presented by the framed narrative.  Nothing happened. 

Again, to you. What of any future victims, should any suffer from it? Look outside the blinders now and again, or better yet; remove 'em.

[King Cousland]

Elhanan wrote...

Ramza_1 wrote...

The choices were meaningless.

To you and some others; not to all. Butterfly effect perhaps....

Example: one playthrough I chose to let feynreal turn into an abomination.  I was so looking forward to meeting this hellishly powerful abomination later because of the opportunity presented by the framed narrative.  Nothing happened. 

Again, to you. What of any future victims, should any suffer from it? Look outside the blinders now and again, or better yet; remove 'em.

I'm not sure I understand your argument. You're saying even though  two people might make the exact same choice, one player doesn't get a consequence while the other does? Or are you saying that we should make up our own consequences despite Laidlaw's peomise of seeing consequences happen then and there?

[Yrkoon]

Elhanan wrote...

Example: one playthrough I chose to let feynreal turn into an abomination.  I was so looking forward to meeting this hellishly powerful abomination later because of the opportunity presented by the framed narrative.  Nothing happened. 

Again, to you. What of any future victims, should any suffer from it?

None do.

We're not even given a slide show explanation, (let alone anything in the game)  to tell us that  any consequence came from  Fenryel turning into an abomination.

So um... what's your point?

[Elhanan]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Most of that's just standard game play. It's like saying Mario has a choice on which block to break or which koopa to stomp on.

Yes there were some decent storytelling moments with companions and so on. In fact any choices that Hawke had any real effect over were limited almost entirely to companion quests and side quests (Fenryiel's fate for instance). The main quest and story line had little to no input from the player and Hawke.

Never played Mario; sure did not learn about the power of choice from him, either.

The main story is a narrative to the Seeker about the events that placed her in the room. So no; Hawke could not alter the outcome of the eventual conflict. But Hawke, like any single individual has the power to influence others in that event. While history may only ever know the eventual grandeur of choice, this does not define that choice of any size has merit.

These quotes seem rather relevant:

"History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. "

"We are not makers of history. We are made by history."

- Martin Luther King, Jr

Modifié par Elhanan, 16 août 2011 - 02:37 .

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

None do.

We're not even given a slide show explanation, (let alone anything in the game)  to tell us that  any consequence came from  Fenryel turning into an abomination.

So um... what's your point?

The point is that you had the power of choice, whether or not you have knowledge of the outcome.

The abomination could slaughter or enslave thousands, as Hawke is warned. Hawke could choose out of greed.

Hawke could choose to make the mage Tranquil.

Hawke could choose freedom or imprisonment.

Hawke could be empathetic or harsh with comapanions based on their decisions.

Choices have power.

[Yrkoon]

Elhanan wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

None do.

We're not even given a slide show explanation, (let alone anything in the game)  to tell us that  any consequence came from  Fenryel turning into an abomination.

So um... what's your point?

The point is that you had the power of choice, whether or not you have knowledge of the outcome.
.

We were discussing consequences of choices, Elhanan.

You can imagine all the UNCREATED-BY-THE-DEVS consequences... in your head.   But they don't exist outside of it, and therefore, they don't exist in DA2.

Stop pretending otherwise.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 16 août 2011 - 02:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

My problem with choices in this game are two fold:

- The first is subjective. Choices are too micro-centric, as in focused on individuals of little importance in the larger scheme of things, with the exception of Feynriel. My preference is choices on a more macro-level. Not big enough to alter the region or prevent what happens at the end, but to alter the city in some ways as time goes on. And for Hawke to at least seriously attempt to make his mark in the city and do something that goes beyond mindless killing. That attempt, even if a failure, would have gone a long way to give the impression that he isn't lazy, useless and only good at killing like he is now in my eyes.

- Consequences, or lack thereof. Consequences are not present in the game, and the extent we get is a dialogue change that I consider meaningless. The world doesn't react to your choices and *show* consequences. What the game offers does not change based on choice. But to be fair, this is a problem with all Bioware games, they rarely show consequences or have game changing ones, but they at least did the first point well that it kept me interested. In DA2, most choices do not interest me, and they are ultimately meaningless in the game itself (not the experience of the player, should he / she have bought into it in the first place).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 août 2011 - 03:08 .

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

We were discussing choices that have consequences, Elhanan.

Not exactly.
 
The OP offered the usual rant that major events had no consequence, but also stated that nothing mattered. I agreed that Hawke could not alter the main storyline; the conflict of Chantry vs Circles. But there is power in every choice on the way, on the kind of person Hawke will be in getting to the end game.

Currently, I am attempting to play a Mage that will eventually side with the Templars. The motivation I am trying to use is love of family, and trying to mend relationships. And I am also trying to finally explore the more harsh responses to see what occurs with Intimidation, but am finding that path extremly difficult as to who and when to choose those replies. My current rule of thumb is to be gracious or humoress with allies, but offer stone cold responses to foes.

The point is that all those small choices matter, whether they affect moral, friendship, rivalry, or not. Sometimes the replies simply do not mesh with the RP concept I wished to use. Sometimes there is no effect IG at all; just a greater or weaker gaming experience. And I contend that even that matters.

Plus, I am all for the final storyline, as this was a motivation for several of my DAO characters going forward; not even knowing the events of DA2 at the time. Those choices now seem more important, though they were only small ones at the time.

And I choose not to whine like the OP over dead horses. Again.

Modifié par Elhanan, 16 août 2011 - 03:13 .

[King Cousland]

Elhanan wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

We were discussing choices that have consequences, Elhanan.

Not exactly.
 
The OP offered the usual rant that major events had no consequence, but also stated that nothing mattered. I agreed that Hawke could not alter the main storyline; the conflict of Chantry vs Circles. But there is power in every choice on the way, on the kind of person Hawke will be in getting to the end game.

Currently, I am attempting to play a Mage that will eventually side with the Templars. The motivation I am trying to use is love of family, and trying to mend relationships. And I am also trying to finally explore the more harsh responses to see what occurs with Intimidation, but am finding that path extremly difficult as to who and when to choose those replies. My current rule of thumb is to be gracious or humoress with allies, but offer stone cold responses to foes.

The point is that all those small choices matter, whether they affect moral, friendship, rivalry, or not. Sometimes the replies simply do not mesh with the RP concept I wished to use. Sometimes there is no effect IG at all; just a greater or weaker gaming experience. And I contend that even that matters.

Plus, I am all for the final storyline, as this was a motivation for several of my DAO characters going forward; not even knowing the events of DA2 at the time. Those choices now seem more important, though they were only small ones at the time.

And I choose not to whine like the OP over dead horses. Again.

If I wanted to play a game which determined what kind of person my character(s) will be,  I'd play the Sims. I play DA because I expect there to be choices which alter not only your own life and the people around you, but can alter a town, a city, a nation, perhaps even Thedas, in a variety of ways. I didn't receive that in DAII and I think it's my right to "whine" over false advertising (the most important person Thedas has ever seen specifically). 

Modifié par harkness72, 16 août 2011 - 03:18 .

[SkittlesKat96]

Prince_12 wrote...

Old topic is old

I disagree completely, the OP has worded his opinion really well and in a way that a lot of people have had trouble wording themselves.

The combat in Dragon Age Origins was just way more lethal and I completely agree with the OP.

As for 'Hawke being powerless' I have nothing to say about that...THAT is an old topic...

[Elhanan]

harkness72 wrote...

If I wanted to play a game which determined what kind of person my character(s) will be,  I'd play the Sims. I play DA because I expect there to be choices which alter not only your own life and the people around you, but can alter a town, a city, a nation, perhaps even Thedas, in a variety of ways. I didn't receive that in DAII and I think it's my right to "whine" over false advertising (the most important person Thedas has ever seen specifically). 

Is not the war one of the most important events in Thedas history? If played, was Hawke not involved? Could Hawke choose sides? Was there a GTD that Hawke could alter this final outcome?

As long as you choose to use your right to complain, pls attempt for accuracy. As for character, perhaps more practice is warranted.

[TheAwesomologist]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@TheAwesomologist - I don't mind paying money for DLCs and new games so long as the story is continuing to be told and told well, and I'm being entertained. But then, I felt that Hawke mattered. I was invested and immersed in that story. I went in with little expectations however and didn't pay much attention to the slogan and ads. I just wanted to play a kick*ss fantasy game and DA2 delivered, imo.

Hey I bought Legacy and it was a vast improvement in gameplay and story telling in the game. I don't think DA2 is the worst game ever, I just think it's Bioware's worst game. Bioware's worst game is still better than a lot of the crap being produced. I didn't want or expect DAO2, but I expected something better than what I got. Maybe that's purely subjective but I don't think I'm alone.

Not an exact parallel, but I waited years before the Star Wars original trilogy storyline fully manifested itself. Sometimes it takes awhile for the full story to be told. I'm fine with that if the story is good and I like the hero.

Dragon Age isn't about 1 character, it's about Thedas. Hawke pales in comparison to the Warden. If there's a story I'd rather see continued it's the Warden's story, as far as I'm concerned I just want to know what hole in the wall Hawke crawls into after Act 3 then I'd gladly be done with him. Hopefully DA3 will give us a protagonist that feels like a protagonist and not just some guy along for the ride.

Elhanan wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Most of that's just standard game play. It's like saying Mario has a choice on which block to break or which koopa to stomp on.

Yes there were some decent storytelling moments with companions and so on. In fact any choices that Hawke had any real effect over were limited almost entirely to companion quests and side quests (Fenryiel's fate for instance). The main quest and story line had little to no input from the player and Hawke.

Never played Mario; sure did not learn about the power of choice from him, either.

Never played a Mario game? Riiiiight....

Modifié par TheAwesomologist, 16 août 2011 - 03:45 .

[Xilizhra]

Meh. Hawke may not have a lot of power to change things on a grand scale, but she sure felt to me a lot more like a person than my Warden, whom I sincerely believe was hit hard and negatively by the lack of a voice and general tone. Also, Hawke seems to have an actual normal-ish life, as do her companions, as opposed to the always adventuring Warden. I find it slightly more interesting in some ways.

[King Cousland]

Elhanan wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

If I wanted to play a game which determined what kind of person my character(s) will be,  I'd play the Sims. I play DA because I expect there to be choices which alter not only your own life and the people around you, but can alter a town, a city, a nation, perhaps even Thedas, in a variety of ways. I didn't receive that in DAII and I think it's my right to "whine" over false advertising (the most important person Thedas has ever seen specifically). 

Is not the war one of the most important events in Thedas history? If played, was Hawke not involved? Could Hawke choose sides? Was there a GTD that Hawke could alter this final outcome?

As long as you choose to use your right to complain, pls attempt for accuracy. As for character, perhaps more practice is warranted.

Actually, I'd say it's you who needs more practice, maybe then you might realise that while Hawke was involved, he didn't start the war. Meredith was involved, so was Orsino. Are they also the most important people the world has ever seen?

[Dubya75]

This topic again? Really?

[Elhanan]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Never played a Mario game? Riiiiight....

Never; no twitch skills at all. I also try not to whine about it, and simply move on with the lesson learned....

[King Cousland]

Elhanan wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Never played a Mario game? Riiiiight....

Never; no twitch skills at all. I also try not to whine about it, and simply move on with the lesson learned....

Then do so, and stop coming to BSN threads to argue.

[Xilizhra]

I think the lesson learned here is that advertising is simply advertising. The purpose is to make you buy the game, and it's not necessarily trustworthy ever.

[Elhanan]

harkness72 wrote...

Actually, I'd say it's you who needs more practice, maybe then you might realise that while Hawke was involved, he didn't start the war. Meredith was involved, so was Orsino. Are they also the most important people the world has ever seen?

Considering Hawke may have killed them both, as well as a known terrorist that ignited the event, I would say that Hawke is fairly important to the story.

Nope; Hawke did not start the war; just rose from it as a legend and symbol.

[Elhanan]

harkness72 wrote...

Then do so, and stop coming to BSN threads to argue.

But... what of my right to complain?

[King Cousland]

Elhanan wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

Then do so, and stop coming to BSN threads to argue.

But... what of my right to complain?

Complain all you want, just don't be hypocrite by claiming to have moved on while arguing ****** for tat with others who may not have. 

[HTTP 404]

if hawke didn't exist, I actually think Kirkwall would be better off. the idol, empowering Anders, stopping the Qunaris. In fact Kirkwall would be runned by the Qun and the circle at Kirkwall would be eradicated by them. Which is the same ending anyways.except, the Chantry would have done an exalted march against the Qunari and both templars and mages would unite to fight the Qunari and would forget about there squabbles. there would be no mass outbreak of war. all because Hawke doesnt exists.

so in a way Hawke isn't powerless. he is quite the opposite.  he is just powerless to changing things unless he dies and you quit the game.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 16 août 2011 - 04:22 .