Thor Rand Al wrote...
How does that NOT prove that Meredith knew, she obviously KNEW that Hawke's mom died of a blood mage or she wouldn't of said it n if she KNEW that then she would know the rest. You don't think that the evidence was turned over to her. Then how did she know mom died by a blood mages hand???
Thor Rand Al wrote...
How does that NOT prove that Meredith knew, she obviously KNEW that Hawke's mom died of a blood mage or she wouldn't of said it n if she KNEW that then she would know the rest. You don't think that the evidence was turned over to her. Then how did she know mom died by a blood mages hand???
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 09:28 .
The Warden has his power purely by virtue of being a warden only, not because of who he is. Hawke has a ceremonial title (not a rank) with no real role in Kirkwall attached to it and no alignment to the institutions which rule the city. I disagree strongly that Hawke could just wave his hands and remove the templars. The chantry is powerful in Kirkwall they installed Dumar, the Guard are clearly not strong enough to challenge the templars. He garners some support amongst the nobles but they mostly seem to be a useless lot and the situation escalates in Act 3 before Hawke really has a chance to capitalise on his alignment with the few nobles that are opposing Meredith.DuskWarden wrote...
The majority of us are not saying that Hawke is powerless, as he clearly isn't. He has a great deal of power, its just that he doesn't seem to use it. The Warden could use his influence in several situations, going so far as to decide the fate of entire kingdoms. Where does Hawke make decisions on this magnitude? He has the ability to; as champion, he is popular enough with the people, and powerful enough as a character to simply remove the Templars from Kirkwall, declare himself Viscount and free the mages.
Why would he want to at that stage? Meredith's lunacy is not yet evident, blood mages are not yet running rife. At the end of Act 2 using the templars for security probably seems like a good idea at the time while the city settles.DuskWarden wrote...Well, from a blood mage's point of view, the templars won't pose of problem when they're dead . And the champion is a rank granted based on services to Kirkwall; immediately after the Qunari battle, when everything was in disarray, I think Hawke could easily have gathered the support to overthrow the Templars. Especially if he could point to Chantry/Templar sympathetic figures such as Mothe Petrice who instigated the whole thing and caused the deaths of so many.
While he has power of a sort I still disagree that he has any real power to dictate events, and indeed I reiterate that IMHO this is one of the points of the game.DuskWarden wrote...
I think we've established that Hawke has power, and are now arguing about his application (or lack thereof) of said power. With the inability to investigate the murder of Leandra being the main case in point.
Modifié par Morroian, 18 août 2011 - 01:24 .
Monica21 wrote...
If you play a mage you're walking around Kirkwall with a staff strapped to your back. Even if people can't "see" the magey-ness about you, how do they ignore the staff strapped to your back? Is that magically invisible too?
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Realmzmaster wrote...
The warden gets a treaty and blunders his way to gather an army. Without said treaty the warden would be unable to get help from elves or dwavres.
Except no one cared about the treaty (2 armies don't even have a treaty) and it's not enforceable by anyone, and the Warden had to help them before. Yes, he acted like an errand boy. But it also provided opportunity to be pro-active. To do something from your own volition.
For instance, playing both Bhelen and Harrowmont. No one tells you to do that. Recruiting the Werewolves. An entirely pro-active choice. Seeking to save the mages when you are told they are all dead, is a choice out of your own volition. Backstabbing Kolgrim...etc
These are things the warden can do from his own volition amnd it involves more than just killing. I do nto recal a single instance of that in DA2, except siding with Petrice, which has a stupid logic to it.
Yes, all Bioware PCs are killing machines. Some however have more choice / options / opportunity to show skills...etc than others.
TheAwesomologist wrote...
Alistar conceeds to you because he's incompetent (sorry Alistar fans but he says it himself, as do other companions). But the bolded part tickled me the most. You've just described every video game ever made. No one wants to play Robin, they want to play Batman.Vormaerin wrote...
TheAwesomologist wrote...
The Warden is more irrelevant? The same guy/gal who gathered an army (of the player's chosing no less) to fight the Blight and either sacrifieced themselves or made a deal to create an old god baby? Yeah totally irrelevant...
If Hawke never shows up in Kirkwall guess what? Anders still starts a war. Anders is far more important to the history of Thedas than Hawke will ever be. Isabella still steals from the Quanari and at best left Kirkwall in a mess, which doesn't matter because Anders is going to blow it up anyways. If you want to give Hawke credit for anything you can blame Hawke for allowing Flemeth to survive. Hawke is maybe the 5th or 6th most important person in DA2.
Yes, the Warden is more irrelevant. The only reason you get credit for doing those things is because the person who should be doing them, namely Alistair, says "oh, you be the leader." It doesn't even make any sense storywise that they pay attention to you instead of Alistair, given that he's senior to you and not a commoner and felon, like most of the warden origins. Besides which, either Alistair or Loghain are equally capable of doing the "godbaby or sacrifice" thing.
The Warden's only important because he's the POV character and the devs said "people listen to you just because".Hey I'm in full agreement that the Qunari quest line is the best in DA2 even if you're just the errand boy for the Arishok and the Viscount. If you take Fenris with you the first time you speak with the Arishok in Act 1 you'll find he's pretty competent as well with dealing with the Qunari, so shouldn't he be taking the lead? No because it's a game where you get to play the main character not the sidekick. See the Alistair falicy swings both ways.The thing that Hawke does that no one else seems likely to be able to do is deal with the Qunari. No one else has the chance to sort it out without massive bloodshed. Only Hawke, by virtue of his personality (not his job description), can convince Isabella to return the book (or not) and only Hawke is able to garner enough respect from the Arishok to settle the matter by a duel instead of all out war.
DA:O had tons of these moments, that had a bigger impact on Ferelden and Thedas as a whole no less (The fate of Redcliff, the fate of the Dalish Elves/Werewolves, The fate of the Circle in Ferelden, The fate of Orzimar. At best Hawke deals with a angry Sister, a scared elf boy, and a bunch of inexplecable psychotic blood mages. His influence only ever extends to one city and it's tenous at best (you get 3 years of being a Champion yet you see or gain nothing for it. If you become Viscount you see even less and still disappear).If you want an example of a quest that can play out multiple ways, the Sister Petrice story arc is a good example. You can kill all the human fanatics, you can let them go, or you can join them in inciting the Qunari to violence. There's also Feynriel, a quest with a number of distinct endings. Grace's quest line plays differently depending on various decisions you make at various stages.
100% of what Hawke does is because Flemeth tapped him on the shoulder. Your point? None of what Hawke does matters because at the end, Anders starts a war. At best you're Anders' sidekick.Hawke is important because of what he does. There's no Duncan to wander up and tap him with the "be important for no reason" wand. 100% of the Warden's significance comes from the fact that Duncan picked him or her to be Alistair's sidekick. People listen to Hawke after he does impressive stuff, not before. And not because he's part of some group or has papers telling people they have to.
I'm fine if Hawke loses. In fact I would have preffered if he had died at the end of DA2 since it would have made much more sense being a Martyr for either cause. Oh wait we have a Martyr already in Anders... I'm also fine with a cliff hanger ending, but this one sucked. I know that's entirely my opinion but I can't help but look at the last Act of DA2 and wonder what kind of stupid pills were taken to write that story. Orsino and Meredith are last minute scooby-doo bad guys, Hawke is utterly innefective, Cullen and Thrask are dumber than bricks, and every mage is batshiat crazy. How does that make for a compelling story? This has nothing to do with a Traditional story or not. When Varric finished his story you know what I expected? A Kaiser Soze moment where it's revealed that Varric and Anders planned the whole thing all along and Casandra doesn't figure it out until Varric has left the building.IMHO, the real reason that some people are dissatisfied with Hawke compared to the Warden is not Hawke is less effective or has fewer choices. Its entirely because the Warden story is a traditional epic with a clear cut "yay, we win" moment at the end. Hawke doesn't win in that sense. The story is set up so that the villain wins no matter what you do, except perhaps be a knowing ally of the villain.
What the devs got was the Dragon Age franchise in a worse place.The devs want the world in a worse place, so they told a story of hopeless heroism and the best Hawke can do is save some lives along the way. The villain, Anders, wins and gets his war. A good friend of mine hated "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" the first time he saw it, because the heroes didn't win like you'd expect in a Hollywood movie. DAO is a Hollywood style action movie. DA2 is like one of those Chinese epics where the hero doesn't get a clean victory.
Look I see your point. You bought DA2, hook, line, and sinker. I'm glad you enjoyed it, I really am. I thought the ending sucked and made it feel like I wasted my time playing second fiddle to a companion character. I don't play video games to feel helpless and sidelined (though moments like that in game are great for dramatic effect). Real life offers enough of those opportunities. Perhaps this ending could have worked if they sold it and packaged it better but the way it was executed it just sucked.
Vormaerin wrote...
What the heck are you talking about? Flemeth tells you to go run along and play with your treaties, which you only have because she bothered to save them (and you, for that matter). Further, everyone acknowledges the treaties, they just beg off on the grounds of incompetence.
You don't have any more choice about gathering armies and doing what you are told than Hawke does with his storyline. You can't make any decision except doing what Flemeth told you to do or the game stalls. Once finish Flemeth's instructions, you get handed off to the keeping of Eamon and have to do what he says.
I'm not really sure how choosing to slaughter the elves instead of the werewolves exactly counts as more proactive than choosing to kill the templars or give them false leads or warn them about the surviving mages in the Decimus quest.
There's a lot more effort involved in resolving the Sundermount situation without killing all the elves than anything I recall from DAO.
You are right that DA2 does suffer more than most from the fact that all Bioware games fail completely at anything resembling investigation. One advantage the warden has is that his storyline is pretty much "find and kill the bad guys" so the limitations of Bioware's design isn't as obvious. The only investigative technique a Bioware PC has is "kill the bad guys and take their notes".
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 août 2011 - 05:56 .
IanPolaris wrote...
I have no issue if Hawke is allowed to try something and it fails. It's not being able to try that gets under my skin.
-Polaris
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I would not call a horrible paraphrase to be effort. Rather guessing.
Something that a lot of people said, including those who love DA2.
Vormaerin wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I would not call a horrible paraphrase to be effort. Rather guessing.
Something that a lot of people said, including those who love DA2.
Not at that point. That conversation is just badly done. I meant working your way towards getting Merrill not to be in that situation at all.
Modifié par Monica21, 18 août 2011 - 04:04 .
Not wholly accurate. It's possible for Hawke to come up with the idea of lying to the templars without Grace suggesting it.The example you provided is completely inconsequential (or has the exact same consequence, which led up to the rather stupid Grace going nuts scene), and Hawke didn't come with the idea, he was told and he picked one option or the other, based on what others tell him.
Sure is - only Qunari have gun powder. And they ain't selling it.happy_daiz wrote...
Every time I see this post, I keep thinking it says, "Hawke is powderless".
Xilizhra wrote...
Not wholly accurate. It's possible for Hawke to come up with the idea of lying to the templars without Grace suggesting it.The example you provided is completely inconsequential (or has the exact same consequence, which led up to the rather stupid Grace going nuts scene), and Hawke didn't come with the idea, he was told and he picked one option or the other, based on what others tell him.
It's still Hawke being proactive, even if it's a failure.IanPolaris wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Not wholly accurate. It's possible for Hawke to come up with the idea of lying to the templars without Grace suggesting it.The example you provided is completely inconsequential (or has the exact same consequence, which led up to the rather stupid Grace going nuts scene), and Hawke didn't come with the idea, he was told and he picked one option or the other, based on what others tell him.
Only if you are sarcastic Hawke (successfully anyway). Otherwise you need to have Varric bail you out if you have him with you. Otherwise you are out of luck.
-Polaris
Guest_Fiddles_stix_*
gettin to know mereidith you find her sister was a mage and for various reasons shes crazy it s because the repressed memory resurffaces after well no spoilers allowed so i wont mention what specifically but you can probably figur it out since if your making this thread you have probably beaten itRamza_1 wrote...
whykikyouwhy wrote...
Quite a few people have felt that Hawke was "powerless." I saw Hawke as someone moving along, trying to do the best thing for the family, and getting caught up in the circumstances and events around him/her. There is still a matter of choice in that. The end result will be the same - it's a game with a defined end bit after all, but the journey is what matters. Maybe 8 role-played Hawke somewhat differently than you.
And sure there were some extremes - it's a fantasy game. Lobbing fireballs from the sky is extreme. Wielding a greatsword and felling an ogre is extreme. That's part of the charm and beauty.
And you seem to have a negative connotation of sponges. I find sponges quite helpful when I'm doing the dishes.
It felt more like being caught on rails. The witcher 2 had the same premise; huge political events were in motion, and the witcher was just a piece in the chess set, but he could still change the shape of the board. If Hawke hadn't been there, it seems as though absolutely nothing would have changed. I agree, there should have been a matter of choice in the situation hawke was in, but gameplay and poor characterization of everyone but hawke and his companions made it seem like the only choice hawke had was in how he delivered his lines, which all amounted to the same thing: your wrong, and now lets fight.
Perhaps what I meant is that most of the bugs you squash in DA2 are characterized ONLY by extremes, and are uninteresting. Again, Irenicus from BG2 is a great example of an engaging villain. He wasn't going to end the world, he wasn't an unrelenting ancient evil like the Archdemon, his goals weren't even really known until 3/4 of the game was over even though you had been interacting with him throughout the entire game and he had somehwat hinted about them.
Same with Loghain from DAO. He was a complex individual; even at the very end it is arguable that he was a villain or simply misled. There is contention about whether he should be killed or not. There is no contention in DA2 about whether anyone should be killed. There is no choice. Meredith obviously needs to be killed when she goes bat crazy. Orsino too. There is no reason or desire to get to know these people before you kill them because there is nothing to know. Meredith is bat crazy. That is her entire story. Hawke has no power to choose- he must kill these lunatics like he killed the 1000s of other lunatics earlier when he was mowing the lawn.
Xilizhra wrote...
It's still Hawke being proactive, even if it's a failure.IanPolaris wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
Not wholly accurate. It's possible for Hawke to come up with the idea of lying to the templars without Grace suggesting it.The example you provided is completely inconsequential (or has the exact same consequence, which led up to the rather stupid Grace going nuts scene), and Hawke didn't come with the idea, he was told and he picked one option or the other, based on what others tell him.
Only if you are sarcastic Hawke (successfully anyway). Otherwise you need to have Varric bail you out if you have him with you. Otherwise you are out of luck.
-Polaris
Ramza_1 wrote...
Prince_12 wrote...
Old topic is old
Well done. A brick is a brick. A frog is a frog. A phone is a phone. Your contribution is appreciated, but why don't you sit quietly and let the adults with the slightly more developed reasoning ability have their turn?
Xilizhra wrote...
It's still Hawke being proactive, even if it's a failure.
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