551 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...
I don't think the above poster meant to say that Alexander the Great was lucky, just that given his station it was easier for him to reach where he did relative to some Lanista or slave that rose though the ranks to run Rome, neither of which happened as far as I can remember my Roman history.

There is Muhammad Ibn Abi 'Amer Al Mansur (known as Al Manzor), in Muslim Spain. He started off as a peasant, and became the sovereign chancellor / hajib of the Umayyad Caliphate and actual ruler in everything but name. Through his skill.

Sure, Alexander had solid foundations (that's why I prefer his father and see him as greater). But there is no denying that he was a tactical genius. If he wasn't skilled, it wouldn't matter how good the foundations were, an idiot would not have been able to do anything with it.

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...
I don't think the above poster meant to say that Alexander the Great was lucky, just that given his station it was easier for him to reach where he did relative to some Lanista or slave that rose though the ranks to run Rome, neither of which happened as far as I can remember my Roman history.

There is Muhammad Ibn Abi 'Amer Al Mansur (known as Al Manzor), in Muslim Spain. He started off as a peasant, and became the sovereign chancellor / hajib of the Umayyad Caliphate and actual ruler in everything but name. Through his skill.

Sure, Alexander had solid foundations (that's why I prefer his father and see him as greater). But there is no denying that he was a tactical genius. If he wasn't skilled, it wouldn't matter how good the foundations were, an idiot would not have been able to do anything with it.

Hawke didn't show that skill of actively desiring power, though.  Though you kind of alluded to that before.  But better example.  I kind of feel that Bioware didn't actually study people in the pasts' ascent to power when they thought of writing Hawke's story though.  They were just going for grimdark angst and melodrama.  To use a video game example, there is a reason why I saw Delita's (Final Fantasy Tactics) grab for power as being plausible versus it falling in Hawke's lap.

I do agree with you about Alexander's tactical genius.  It's something we should have seen in the Arishok, given the fact that he, I dunno, controlls an entire people's military force, and he was not alluded to having stumbled into the position.  But I digress.

Modifié par Harid, 17 août 2011 - 03:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
Lottery winners are in the right place at the right time, not people who've had almost as many books written about them as Jesus.

Napoleon was in the right place at the right time. The Revolution and the massacring of Aristocrats, paved a way in the army for quick promotions.

But Napoleon had the right skills and the determination to take advantage of that. Throw any skilless idiot in his exact position, and he would not have accomplished anything.

[whykikyouwhy]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...
I don't think the above poster meant to say that Alexander the Great was lucky, just that given his station it was easier for him to reach where he did relative to some Lanista or slave that rose though the ranks to run Rome, neither of which happened as far as I can remember my Roman history.

There is Muhammad Ibn Abi 'Amer Al Mansur (known as Al Manzor), in Muslim Spain. He started off as a peasant, and became the sovereign chancellor / hajib of the Umayyad Caliphate and actual ruler in everything but name. Through his skill.

Sure, Alexander had solid foundations (that's why I prefer his father and see him as greater). But there is no denying that he was a tactical genius. If he wasn't skilled, it wouldn't matter how good the foundations were, an idiot would not have been able to do anything with it.

Fictitious, but perhaps you could use Aladdin as an example? And then Varric could be the djinn.

[Harid]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...
I don't think the above poster meant to say that Alexander the Great was lucky, just that given his station it was easier for him to reach where he did relative to some Lanista or slave that rose though the ranks to run Rome, neither of which happened as far as I can remember my Roman history.

There is Muhammad Ibn Abi 'Amer Al Mansur (known as Al Manzor), in Muslim Spain. He started off as a peasant, and became the sovereign chancellor / hajib of the Umayyad Caliphate and actual ruler in everything but name. Through his skill.

Sure, Alexander had solid foundations (that's why I prefer his father and see him as greater). But there is no denying that he was a tactical genius. If he wasn't skilled, it wouldn't matter how good the foundations were, an idiot would not have been able to do anything with it.

Fictitious, but perhaps you could use Aladdin as an example? And then Varric could be the djinn.

He married a princess. >_>

[whykikyouwhy]

Harid wrote...

He married a princess. >_>

Open to interpretation based on who your Hawke romances. Princess is in the eye of the beholder. But first there was a quest - and a cave (Deep Roads) - and a lot of gold.

[Elhanan]

Personally, I do not require all that much realism in a Fantasy tale of demonic possesion, Blood magic, etc. While Orsino's wrap up left me wanting more, the remaining conclusion was fine by me.

And Legacy helped explain why Kirkwall has so many problems with the Fade, possibly veiling the identity of mages; other like nugget or two was ref in the main game, too

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...
Hawke didn't show that skill of actively desiring power, though.  Though you kind of alluded to that before.  But better example.  I kind of feel that Bioware didn't actually study people in the pasts' ascent to power when they thought of writing Hawke's sotry though.  They were just going for grimdark angst and melodrama.  To use a video game example, there is a reason why I saw Delita's (Final Fantasy Tactics) grab for power as being plausible versus it falling in Hawke's lap.

I do agree with you about Alexander's tactical genius.  It's something we should have seen in the Arishok, given the fact that he, I dunno, controlls an entire people's military force, and he was not alluded to having stumbled into the position.  But I digress.

Then I wonder why Hawke can tell Varric that he wants power, when the game does not offer us the ability to actually do that. Hawke is just coming off as a douche here. But yes, other than that useless convo, Hawke shows little desire to be active (let alone actually be active to deal with the larger issues). Some people could like that and it's their pregorative. I could like a character that has no interest in power or has little interest in the larger scheme of things if they have things to compensate for that (like Geralt), but I felt Hawke had nothing to compensate for that. I didn't care about his family and I didn't care about most companions. So there was nothing for me to look forward to.

Don't get me started on the Arishok's military incompetence <_<

[KnightofPhoenix]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Fictitious, but perhaps you could use Aladdin as an example? And then Varric could be the djinn.

I'd rather not play a Disney character, in an rpg thank you

EDIT: Heck, I'd much rather play Mulan over Hawke.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 04:03 .

[whykikyouwhy]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Fictitious, but perhaps you could use Aladdin as an example? And then Varric could be the djinn.

I'd rather not play a Disney character, in an rpg thank you

EDIT: Heck, I'd much rather play Mulan over Hawke.

I was going with the whole One Thousand and One Nights version. There's less breaking into song (not that breaking into song is bad).

While Mulan would trump many a hero, I happened to enjoy playing Hawke. But that's just me.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
Fictitious, but perhaps you could use Aladdin as an example? And then Varric could be the djinn.

I'd rather not play a Disney character, in an rpg thank you

EDIT: Heck, I'd much rather play Mulan over Hawke.

 I come into this thread to talk about Hawke being powerless because I agree and see talk of Disney characters. Makes me want to play Kingdom Hearts again.


I'd enjoy playing as Jack Skellington over Hawke. Or Jack Sparrow. Or even Beast. At least they get stuff done right and actually think.

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...
Hawke didn't show that skill of actively desiring power, though.  Though you kind of alluded to that before.  But better example.  I kind of feel that Bioware didn't actually study people in the pasts' ascent to power when they thought of writing Hawke's sotry though.  They were just going for grimdark angst and melodrama.  To use a video game example, there is a reason why I saw Delita's (Final Fantasy Tactics) grab for power as being plausible versus it falling in Hawke's lap.

I do agree with you about Alexander's tactical genius.  It's something we should have seen in the Arishok, given the fact that he, I dunno, controlls an entire people's military force, and he was not alluded to having stumbled into the position.  But I digress.

Then I wonder why Hawke can tell Varric that he wants power, when the game does not offer us the ability to actually do that. Hawke is just coming off as a douche here. But yes, other than that useless convo, Hawke shows little desire to be active (let alone actually be active to deal with the larger issues). Some people could like that and it's their pregorative. I could like a character that has no interest in power or has little interest in the larger scheme of things if they have things to compensate for that (like Geralt), but I felt Hawke had nothing to compensate for that. I didn't care about his family and I didn't care about most companions. So there was nothing for me to look forward to.

Don't get me started on the Arishok's military incompetence <_<

Trademark Bioware douche response that goes nowhere?  It's not like the game then gives you the option to place your companions in positions around the city to build your power around/with them or something that would have made sense.

But I largely agree.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Then I wonder why Hawke can tell Varric that he wants power, when the game does not offer us the ability to actually do that. Hawke is just coming off as a douche here. But yes, other than that useless convo, Hawke shows little desire to be active (let alone actually be active to deal with the larger issues). Some people could like that and it's their pregorative. I could like a character that has no interest in power or has little interest in the larger scheme of things if they have things to compensate for that (like Geralt), but I felt Hawke had nothing to compensate for that. I didn't care about his family and I didn't care about most companions. So there was nothing for me to look forward to.

Don't get me started on the Arishok's military incompetence <_<

Hawke does end up with power, but certainly not because sought it out. If you don't talk to the Arishok you don't advance the story. Granted, his power is in being called upon to make decisions that end up not mattering in the slightest, but it's an illusion of power that was either deliberately or accidentally ignored. (Note that I'm agreeing with you here.)

And you know that now I want to ask you about the Arishok's military (in)competence. 

Modifié par Monica21, 17 août 2011 - 04:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I was going with the whole One Thousand and One Nights version. There's less breaking into song (not that breaking into song is bad).

While Mulan would trump many a hero, I happened to enjoy playing Hawke. But that's just me.

Your right, and I am in no way suggesting that enjoying Hawke is incomprehensible or wrong. That would actually be pretty stupid.

Just that I find playing him was very unpleasant to me.

[whykikyouwhy]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I was going with the whole One Thousand and One Nights version. There's less breaking into song (not that breaking into song is bad).

While Mulan would trump many a hero, I happened to enjoy playing Hawke. But that's just me.

Your right, and I am in no way suggesting that enjoying Hawke is incomprehensible or wrong. That would actually be pretty stupid.

Just that I find playing him was very unpleasant to me.

No accusation meant, and by no means did I interpret your posts that way.

Although, it would be amusing to see some DA2 clips edited to "Be A Man." It could be subtitled "Hero Training - Kirkwall Style."

Not that I'm dropping random ideas or anything...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
Hawke does end up with power, but certainly not because sought it out. If you don't talk to the Arishok you don't advance the story. Granted, his power is in being called upon to make decisions that end up not mattering in the slightest, but it's an illusion of power that was either deliberately or accidentally ignored. (Note that I'm agreeing with you here.)

And you know that now I want to ask you about the Arishok's military (in)competence. 

Hawke does not end up with power. He ends up with wealth and with fame. Two things that could have given him power, if he sought it. The title of Champion in and of itself is powerless, and that we see because Hawke didn't bother to make it anything else.

The only semblance of power he had, was when the Arishok and Viscount needed him and I thought he was establishing connections. But the only thing he does there is mass murdering everyone who gets in his way without using his brain. So essentially, he ends up being an errand boy and hitman, more or less.  

As for the Arishok's incompetence:
http://social.biowar...22486/1#8124830

[KnightofPhoenix]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
No accusation meant, and by no means did I interpret your posts that way.

Although, it would be amusing to see some DA2 clips edited to "Be A Man." It could be subtitled "Hero Training - Kirkwall Style."

Not that I'm dropping random ideas or anything...

Ha, I actually was thinking that, no joke.

[Xilizhra]

So, KoP: Is Act 1 basically acceptable to you, when Hawke has no real power and no logical means of exercising it, and thus just acts as an errand girl/boy?

[TEWR]

the sad thing is that when Varric asks you what you want to do, you can make Hawke say he wants to get involved in politics.


....I was not happy when I couldn't actually make him work towards that goal in an honest, believable fashion that involved more than becoming a mass murderer of Qunari.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Hawke does end up with power, but certainly not because sought it out. If you don't talk to the Arishok you don't advance the story. Granted, his power is in being called upon to make decisions that end up not mattering in the slightest, but it's an illusion of power that was either deliberately or accidentally ignored. (Note that I'm agreeing with you here.)

And you know that now I want to ask you about the Arishok's military (in)competence. 

Hawke does not end up with power. He ends up with wealth and with fame.

Ah, memories of the first time I discussed this with you several months ago. I quickly learned that saying Hawke ends up with power is pressing one of your berserker buttons. 

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Hawke does end up with power, but certainly not because sought it out. If you don't talk to the Arishok you don't advance the story. Granted, his power is in being called upon to make decisions that end up not mattering in the slightest, but it's an illusion of power that was either deliberately or accidentally ignored. (Note that I'm agreeing with you here.)

And you know that now I want to ask you about the Arishok's military (in)competence. 

Hawke does not end up with power. He ends up with wealth and with fame. Two things that could have given him power, if he sought it. The title of Champion in and of itself is powerless, and that we see because Hawke didn't bother to make it anything else.

The only semblance of power he had, was when the Arishok and Viscount needed him and I thought he was establishing connections. But the only thing he does there is mass murdering everyone who gets in his way without using his brain. So essentially, he ends up being an errand boy and hitman, more or less.  

That was what I was referring to. He could certainly have done more with it, but having the Arishok ask for Hawke by name is a semblance of power in itself. Unfortunately Hawke does nothing with it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

So, KoP: Is Act 1 basically acceptable to you, when Hawke has no real power and no logical means of exercising it, and thus just acts as an errand girl/boy?

Yes, because he had a goal, and worked to achieve it.
I do not find the goal of accumulating wealth that interesting, but I'd say it makes sense.

Would it alone have made a fun game to me? No. But as a bginning, it was adequate I thought.

[Elhanan]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the sad thing is that when Varric asks you what you want to do, you can make Hawke say he wants to get involved in politics.

....I was not happy when I couldn't actually make him work towards that goal in an honest, believable fashion that involved more than becoming a mass murderer of Qunari.

Again, there are options:

http://dragonage.wik...ands_of_the_Qun

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
That was what I was referring to. He could certainly have done more with it, but having the Arishok ask for Hawke by name is a semblance of power in itself. Unfortunately Hawke does nothing with it.

Since all the Arishok ends up asking is for Hawke to just kill people, I am not sure if this is a semblance of power, or an unquestionable skill of being a brutish mass murderer.

Had the Arishok asked him for financial support, or political connections, or information or men under his command, or stuff like that, I would have felt Hawke was acting less like a hitman (on a massive scale) and more like...an actual ally.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 04:31 .

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, KoP: Is Act 1 basically acceptable to you, when Hawke has no real power and no logical means of exercising it, and thus just acts as an errand girl/boy?

Yes, because he had a goal, and worked to achieve it.
I do not find the goal of accumulating wealth that interesting, but I'd say it makes sense.

Would it alone have made a fun game to me? No. But as a bginning, it was adequate I thought.

All right. Now, in Act 2, you can't really search for more power because the crises are piling high and fast; there's simply too much to do personally. If anything, what should have been added is a chance to make use of connections you made during the last three years, when it was all quiet.