551 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
All right. Now, in Act 2, you can't really search for more power because the crises are piling high and fast; there's simply too much to do personally. If anything, what should have been added is a chance to make use of connections you made during the last three years, when it was all quiet.

Crisis is a perfect opportunity for accumulating power, always was. Many who rose to power used a criris to justify it.

And what was Hawke doing personally anyways? Other than recieving orders from the Arishok and the Viscount? Nothing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 04:40 .

[TEWR]

Elhanan wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the sad thing is that when Varric asks you what you want to do, you can make Hawke say he wants to get involved in politics.

....I was not happy when I couldn't actually make him work towards that goal in an honest, believable fashion that involved more than becoming a mass murderer of Qunari.

Again, there are options:

http://dragonage.wik...ands_of_the_Qun

I don't consider betraying *spoiler* a good way to earn power and influence.

Hawke came from the streets of Lowtown and possibly worked with the smugglers, more than likely going through Darktown. He knows what the people have had to face. He's made countless forays into the Alienage just to visit Merrill.

The game should've had an entire arc centered around smugglers/mercenaries (with an Athenril romance too because she's awesome.). This would've showed us how Hawke was important to both sides and shown us that he has allies he can call on when **** hits the fan (climax of Act 2 and Act 3).

The game also should've had certain side quests in Act 1 (Amaranthine Conspirators, Magistrate's Orders, etc) tie into Hawke's rise to power later on.

He could be either pro-mage or pro-templar, so to that end working for or against the Mage Underground would've helped his influence. By being pro-mage and working towards garnering influence, he could show that he isn't afraid to stand up to the Templars and won't let them bully him around. For being pro-templar, he's showing that he believes the Mage Underground is a threat to the city and the Templars aren't doing a good enough job. Either way, he's standing up to the ones who really control the city.



edit: how is it that small grammatical errors escape my notice?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 août 2011 - 06:54 .

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
All right. Now, in Act 2, you can't really search for more power because the crises are piling high and fast; there's simply too much to do personally. If anything, what should have been added is a chance to make use of connections you made during the last three years, when it was all quiet.

Crisis is a perfect opportunity for accumulating power, always was. Many who rose to power used a criris to justify it.

And what was Hawke doing personally anyways? Other than recieving orders from the Arishok and the Viscount? Nothing.

Not nothing. You can make an effort to build a connection with Petrice's movement that doesn't involve her giving you orders.
Otherwise... well, what could you do about this situation in particular? What would you want to do, that the game could handle?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
Not nothing. You can make an effort to build a connection with Petrice's movement that doesn't involve her giving you orders.
Otherwise... well, what could you do about this situation in particular? What would you want to do, that the game could handle?

By effort you mean that one choice that only an aggressive Hawke can make? That's too much? Why couldn't he do it before?

What could have been done in this situation, is establishing tighter ties with the nobles, showing them that you and not the Viscount, are strong enough to deal with the Qunari and Templar encroachement, while obviously faking utmost loyalty to the viscount because rare are those who like or feel comfortable around backstabbers. 

What could have been done is providing financial support to the Guards (call it charitable donations) and working towards bringing Aveline under your influence, instead of just doing errands for her that are of no consequence.
Use Varric's financial resources that we never see, for once.

We know that Templars like Thrashk exist in Act 2. Great, establish a connection with them. Hint to them that change is required and that Meredith is dangerous to everyone. Secretly support them and help cultivate dissent amongst Templars. We know the mage resistance existed. Awesome, why not actually get in touch instead of just doing inconsequential errands?

Develop a powerbase amongst Ferelden refugees. Use old contacts established between the prologue and act 1 for something useful, instead of just forgetting about them.

There was a lot a man of vision, skill (beyond killing) and intelligence could have done (or at least attempted to do). Hawke however does not possess any of those traits. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 04:56 .

[Willybot]

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, KoP: Is Act 1 basically acceptable to you, when Hawke has no real power and no logical means of exercising it, and thus just acts as an errand girl/boy?

Yes, because he had a goal, and worked to achieve it.
I do not find the goal of accumulating wealth that interesting, but I'd say it makes sense.

Would it alone have made a fun game to me? No. But as a bginning, it was adequate I thought.

All right. Now, in Act 2, you can't really search for more power because the crises are piling high and fast; there's simply too much to do personally. If anything, what should have been added is a chance to make use of connections you made during the last three years, when it was all quiet.

I'd disagree that even with the events going on, Hawke couldn't build and/or expand a power base. The one resource Hawke has at the begining to the Act, money, is largely ignored. Apart from purchasing the estate for whatever unknown sum it was, nothing of note is done with the supposed riches found in the deep roads. Hawke could have used his/her newfound wealth to invest in businesses, sponsered other expeditions, cornered the rune/potion/poison supply market using the 'nodes' you find....many many options.
The Bone Pit could have been a great oppertunity to take things in this direction. As a side feature, Hawke could have invested capital to make the pace safer or more productive. I initially found it very odd that it's current owner (name slips me at the moment) would hand over '50%' of the mine, but as events progressed I found myself admiring his accumen. Dispite 'owning' half the mine, Hawke makes no revenue off of it. Instead, the owner has in Hawke an incredably able monster hunter on call for a relative pittance. If it wasnt for the fact that the Pit evidently is the home of 1/3 the monster population in the Free Marches, things would have worked out great for him.

All in all, it's just a facet that the game simply didn't take since it was so action-oriented. No matter what tone/choices/etc you take in a playthrough, you end up very proficient in exactly one thing: mass murder. An while being the most prolific killer in the land carries power, it's a pretty narrow one.

[Xilizhra]

By effort you mean that one choice that only an aggressive Hawke can make? That's too much? Why couldn't he do it before?

Petrice dropped off the map before now.

What could have been done in this situation, is establishing tighter ties with the nobles, showing them that you and not the Viscount, are strong enough to deal with the Qunari and Templar encroachement, while obviously faking utmost loyalty to the viscount because rare are those who like or feel comfortable around backstabbers.

How would this help? You can't directly become viscount yourself, and you're already de facto in charge of qunari affairs. What would you do?

What could have been done is providing financial support to the Guards (call it charitable donations) and working towards bringing Aveline under your influence, instead of just doing errands for her that are of no consequence.
Use Varric's financial resources that we never see, for once.

Unnecessary with the relationship meters. Why do you need to be sneaky and underhanded to your friend/teammate?

We know that Templars like Thrashk exist in Act 2. Great, establish a connection with them. Hint to them that change is required and that Meredith is dangerous to everyone. Secretly support them and help cultivate dissent amongst Templars. We know the mage resistance existed. Awesome, why not actually get in touch instead of just doing inconsequential errands?

I think that not only does Anders do this, but he deliberately shuts you off from joining in because you're too politically important.

Develop a powerbase amongst Ferelden refugees. Use old contacts established between the prologue and act 1 for something useful, instead of just forgetting about them.

Would be interesting to see, but what exactly are they good for?

I suppose a major difference between us is that I don't mind gaps like this because I fill them in in my mind with whatever doesn't break canon, whereas you want to see everything in the presented story directly.

[TEWR]

Willybot wrote...



I'd disagree that even with the events going on, Hawke couldn't build and/or expand a power base. The one resource Hawke has at the begining to the Act, money, is largely ignored. Apart from purchasing the estate for whatever unknown sum it was, nothing of note is done with the supposed riches found in the deep roads. Hawke could have used his/her newfound wealth to invest in businesses, sponsered other expeditions, cornered the rune/potion/poison supply market using the 'nodes' you find....many many options.
The Bone Pit could have been a great oppertunity to take things in this direction. As a side feature, Hawke could have invested capital to make the pace safer or more productive. I initially found it very odd that it's current owner (name slips me at the moment) would hand over '50%' of the mine, but as events progressed I found myself admiring his accumen. Dispite 'owning' half the mine, Hawke makes no revenue off of it. Instead, the owner has in Hawke an incredably able monster hunter on call for a relative pittance. If it wasnt for the fact that the Pit evidently is the home of 1/3 the monster population in the Free Marches, things would have worked out great for him.

All in all, it's just a facet that the game simply didn't take since it was so action-oriented. No matter what tone/choices/etc you take in a playthrough, you end up very proficient in exactly one thing: mass murder. An while being the most prolific killer in the land carries power, it's a pretty narrow one.

What I would've liked to see is that Hawke could gain money depending on how many side quests he does in the Bone Pit.

After acquiring 50% of the mine, he should earn a profit of about 15-25 sovereigns at the beginning of Act 2 (at least that much).

Then, by doing all of the side quests in Act 3, he earns a profit of 200 sovereigns (it would be 150 if you only did 3, 75 if you only did 2, 25 if you only did 1, and none if you did none at all).

By the time he slays the High Dragon, a new quest should've opened up where he can hire more workers. At first they're reluctant, but he tells them that it was due to Hubert's greed and idiocy that things went bad, since in Act 2 he puts off hiring guards after the miners faced undead, spiders, and dragons.

[TEWR]

I think that not only does Anders do this, but he deliberately shuts you off from joining in because you're too politically important.

IIRC he says the mages are actually glad Hawke is a noble and want to be just like him, because he's what they aspire to (being a free mage with a home and family). I don't think he ever said Hawke's politics got in the way.

And even if that were the case, why not bring the Mage Underground up to Hawke in Act 1? They obviously were around, as Templars asked questions about them.

[Realmzmaster]

I was not saying that luck plays the only part in determining success. But even the best of plans require some luck. The best tactician will try his/her best to limit the influence of luck. Yes you still need skills to take advantage of a situation, but sometimes the situation occurs through pure luck.

And carefully laid plans have fallen victim to pure luck. Napoleon had the skills, but without the right amount of luck and being at the right place at the right time he would have never risen to the height he did. The same with a great many of our leaders. Luck has played a part.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Petrice dropped off the map before now.

The anti-qunari zealots did not. Why not join them?

How would this help? You can't directly become viscount yourself, and you're already de facto in charge of qunari affairs. What would you do?

You can either groom yourself to become the Viscount's successor, or his right hand man, aka the real ruler of the city. One possible motivation is the desire to re-establish a proper  and sovereign civilian government.

Or attempt to orchestrate a subtle coup d'etat with Dumar acknowledging his weakness and unsuitedness for his position, and gracefully retiring following the disinterested advice of Hawke's noble supporters.

And in charge of qunari affairs? So a tense political situation of this scale is delt with via mass murder only?
He was not in charge of anything except killing en masse.

Unnecessary with the relationship meters. Why do you need to be sneaky and underhanded to your friend/teammate?

Why not?
The relationship meter does nothing to make them valuable allies, outside of combat.

Aveline would not accept letting you control the guards if you act brashly. It needs to be done subtly.

I think that not only does Anders do this, but he deliberately shuts you off from joining in because you're too politically important.

I don't care what Anders is doing, and how can he block you off? Who is he to do that? The leader of the resistance when I wasn't looking?

I don't care what he thinks. There are ways to get into contact despite of him. That is no excuse for Hawke's laziness, as we don't even see him try to join. 

Would be interesting to see, but what exactly are they good for?

Mercs = muscle
Smugglers = well smugglers. They might be able to smuggle illegal or cheaper weapons for your use.
Merchants = some financial donations to make sure they are protected.

...etc etc.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 05:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I was not saying that luck plays the only part in determining success. But even the best of plans require some luck. The best tactician will try his/her best to limit the influence of luck. Yes you still need skills to take advantage of a situation, but sometimes the situation occurs through pure luck.

And carefully laid plans have fallen victim to pure luck. Napoleon had the skills, but without the right amount of luck and being at the right place at the right time he would have never risen to the height he did. The same with a great many of our leaders. Luck has played a part.

Sure, but it was far from being everything or even most of it.

Hawke's supposed "rise to power" is through pure luck and his mass murdering skills. Nothing more that actually involve using his head. 

[Morroian]

Xilizhra wrote...

I suppose a major difference between us is that I don't mind gaps like this because I fill them in in my mind with whatever doesn't break canon, whereas you want to see everything in the presented story directly.

I do the same, fill in the blanks that is.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Morroian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I suppose a major difference between us is that I don't mind gaps like this because I fill them in in my mind with whatever doesn't break canon, whereas you want to see everything in the presented story directly.

I do the same, fill in the blanks that is.

It seems to me, you are filling the blanks to justify inaction.
In Origins, I too filled in the blanks, but to justify certain actions (specifically the useless sidequests).

I do not feel obligated to imagine reasons why my PC was forced to be lazy / ineffectual. At the end of the day, I am still playing a more or less inactive and ineffectual character. Not what I am interested in.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 05:27 .

[Xilizhra]

The anti-qunari zealots did not. Why not join them?

Why would you?

And in charge of qunari affairs? So a tense political situation of this scale is delt with via mass murder only?
He was not in charge of anything except killing en masse.

The killing was incidental. All of the missions you're sent on there are investigative; find out where the stolen saar-qamek went, find out what happened to the missing delegates, Hawke investigates personally, and those things just happen to eventually turn into bloodbaths because that's Kirkwall.

Why not?
The relationship meter does nothing to make them valuable allies, outside of combat.

Aveline would not accept letting you control the guards if you act brashly. It needs to be done subtly.

I suppose this is just something Hawke is defined into not doing, like siding with Quentin.

I'm too tired to argue the rest. Again, I suppose this is because I make up stuff I haven't seen and you just consider nothing other than what directly happens in-game to be applicable to your story.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would you?

Why not? Why would you side with Petrice?

The killing was incidental. All of the missions you're sent on there are investigative; find out where the stolen saar-qamek went, find out what happened to the missing delegates, Hawke investigates personally, and those things just happen to eventually turn into bloodbaths because that's Kirkwall.

So a private detective (lol at the thought but I digress). You still had to report back to the Viscount and the Arishok, and they took the decisons. They were in charge, you were the middle man / woman.

I suppose this is just something Hawke is defined into not doing, like siding with Quentin.

Or like not investigating the death of his own damn mother.

I'm too tired to argue the rest. Again, I suppose this is because I make up stuff I haven't seen and you just consider nothing other than what directly happens in-game to be applicable to your story.

What stuff up? I am curious.

Stuff that gives you the illuson that Hawke is not useless? Or reasons as to why he is useless?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 05:31 .

[Xilizhra]

What stuff up? I am curious.

Stuff that gives you the illuson that Hawke is not useless? Or reasons as to why he is useless?

I don't consider it an illusion, primarily because I believe the story happening in the game is less important than the story happening in my mind, unless it involves me making things up about the mage-templar conflict or something similar. For instance, I see my Hawke as having done a fair few things for the Fereldan Darktown population, helping as many as possible out of the place. If you have specific questions for things I've done, I'll answer them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't consider it an illusion, primarily because I believe the story happening in the game is less important than the story happening in my mind, unless it involves me making things up about the mage-templar conflict or something similar. For instance, I see my Hawke as having done a fair few things for the Fereldan Darktown population, helping as many as possible out of the place. If you have specific questions for things I've done, I'll answer them.

Not at the moment, though it might be interesting to write a blog about it or something like that.

Not that it would ever help me enjoy this game, but it might be an enjoyable read.

[Quething]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What I would've liked to see is that Hawke could gain money depending on how many side quests he does in the Bone Pit.

After acquiring 50% of the mine, he should earn a profit of about 15-25 sovereigns at the beginning of Act 2 (at least that much).

Then, by doing all of the side quests in Act 3, he earns a profit of 200 sovereigns (it would be 150 if you only did 3, 75 if you only did 2, 25 if you only did 1, and none if you did none at all).

By the time he slays the High Dragon, a new quest should've opened up where he can hire more workers. At first they're reluctant, but he tells them that it was due to Hubert's greed and idiocy that things went bad, since in Act 2 he puts off hiring guards after the miners faced undead, spiders, and dragons.

In the rewards.gda, there are a number of entries under the mine quest heading that don't do anything. A bunch are just "mine profits." I suspect they intended to work in a steady income for mine owners and just generally a more involved payoff story-wise for that business partnership, and it got cut for time.

Not that, even if they had, they would likely have worked it into the main plot. Hawke's powerlessness seems pretty clearly to have been a major conceptual foundation for the DA2 story, and they don't seem to know how to write "powerless" in a way that doesn't equal "incompetent" (and in fairness, it's not an easy task - particularly in a video game - though again in fairness, I thus question whether it's a wise thing to try to build a game around).

Modifié par Quething, 17 août 2011 - 05:43 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

A slightly related question. Can anyone remember moments were Hawke displayed actual intelligence?

In Origins, while few, you had moments like playing both Bhelen and Harrowmont out of your own volition, lying to and backstabbing Anora, tricking Kolgrim, putting a weak Alistair on the throne and becoming his chancellor, tricking nobles in Slim Couldry quests, making your own potions / traps / poisons...etc.
In Kotor, you had the awesome Korriban academy scenario where you can pull off a Xanatos roulette, not to mention all the mathematical equations and puzzles, all the skills that can actually be employed often (computer skills, repairing, hacking...etc), murder investigations...etc

But I genuinely cannot remember a single moment like that in DA2. I never once recall feeling I was playing someone who could be intelligent.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 05:48 .

[Chromie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A slightly related question. Can anyone remember moments were Hawke displayed actual intelligence?

But I genuinely cannot remember a single moment like that in DA2.

When...Hawke um. Challenge accepted! Not really.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A slightly related question. Can anyone remember moments were Hawke displayed actual intelligence?

None that you would accept, my sweet unbiased KOP.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A slightly related question. Can anyone remember moments were Hawke displayed actual intelligence?

In Origins, while few, you had moments like playing both Bhelen and Harrowmont out of your own volition, lying to and backstabbing Anora, tricking Kolgrim, putting a weak Alistair on the throne and becoming his chancellor, tricking nobles in Slim Couldry quests, making your own potions / traps / poisons...etc.
In Kotor, you had the awesome Korriban academy scenario where you can pull off a Xanatos roulette, not to mention all the mathematical equations and puzzles, all the skills that can actually be employed often (computer skills, repairing, hacking...etc), murder investigations...etc

But I genuinely cannot remember a single moment like that in DA2. I never once recall feeling I was playing someone who could be intelligent.

depends on how you define intelligence. I think there were a few. Do you mean where Hawke actually has a goal in mind, or where he does something that doesn't just boil down to "I think I'll stab this thing for no reason at all!"?

Also, the Warden can become the owner of a run down, shoddy tavern that sees more drunken buffoons than a Dwarven celebration on marriage with dancing nugs as entertainment. I like intimidating Lloyd into giving me the bar.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 août 2011 - 05:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am really not trying to be snarky. Maybe I really did miss something.

@ ethereal
Well not just "not gona stab you!". But something that involved using his brain (in a figurative sense naturally), like the examples I provided.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 05:54 .

[TEWR]

short of imagining things in regards to the quests? I don't think so, though I haven't played DAII for a while now. Well, maybe the Amaranthine Conspirators quest could count, if you want to think of it as Hawke forging an alliance between himself and Amaranthine, which could then serve later on as him forging an alliance between Ferelden and Kirkwall.

though that really comes down to the player's imagination. Still, I like to see it like that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 août 2011 - 05:59 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

short of imagining things in regards to the quests? I don't think so, though I haven't played DAII for a while now. Well, maybe the Amaranthine Conspirators quest could count, if you want to think of it as Hawke forging an alliance between himself and Amaranthine, which could then serve later on as him forging an alliance between Ferelden and Kirkwall.

Or grooming Sebastian to be ruler of Starkhaven I guess.
Meh, too much imagining for my tastes.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 05:59 .