551 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

short of imagining things in regards to the quests? I don't think so, though I haven't played DAII for a while now. Well, maybe the Amaranthine Conspirators quest could count, if you want to think of it as Hawke forging an alliance between himself and Amaranthine, which could then serve later on as him forging an alliance between Ferelden and Kirkwall.

Or grooming Sebastian to be ruler of Starkhaven I guess.
Meh, too much imagining for my tastes.

I admit that having to imagine so much, even for an RPG, means something is wrong (at least to me anyway. might not be that way for other people). I don't want to imagine an entire fanfiction (though I'm going to) to make the game enjoyable.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A slightly related question. Can anyone remember moments were Hawke displayed actual intelligence?

In Origins, while few, you had moments like playing both Bhelen and Harrowmont out of your own volition, lying to and backstabbing Anora, tricking Kolgrim, putting a weak Alistair on the throne and becoming his chancellor, tricking nobles in Slim Couldry quests, making your own potions / traps / poisons...etc.
In Kotor, you had the awesome Korriban academy scenario where you can pull off a Xanatos roulette, not to mention all the mathematical equations and puzzles, all the skills that can actually be employed often (computer skills, repairing, hacking...etc), murder investigations...etc

But I genuinely cannot remember a single moment like that in DA2. I never once recall feeling I was playing someone who could be intelligent.

Suggesting Orsino's diversion during Demands of the Qun, thus directly saving several lives.
Leading on Torpor and then backstabbing it.
Arguably double-crossing the Deep Roads hunger demon.
Playing as a humorous Hawke and using your own lies to make your way past people.
Playing as a diplomatic Hawke and knowing how to speak to certain people to influence them in some heavily positive ways.
Deducing that Corypheus can't be controlled.
In a similar vein, solving the various puzzles of Legacy.
The city is much larger than it looks and no place has a quest marker on it in reality, so simply hunting and finding certain things and locations would take skill and probably intelligence, at least in the matter of tracking.
Remembering to keep the Arishok informed to keep up his respect.
Probably more.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
Suggesting Orsino's diversion during Demands of the Qun, thus directly saving several lives.

Wasn't that Orsino's idea?

I'd have to re-read these scenarios, but thanks for replying.
Nothing sounds that impressive to me and which would compensate for the rest. But at least something seems to be there.

[Thor Rand Al]

Another topic where someone thinks Hawke is useless?  FFS how many of these are there, pretty sure if you type in Hawke is useless you might actually find a lot of threads like this. 

Ugh, n sorry to say but Hawke is far from worthless, useless, boring, powerless and whatever else has been said about him.  :Bangs head against desk: Just don't get it. 

[Vormaerin]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

The Warden is more irrelevant? The same guy/gal who gathered an army (of the player's chosing no less) to fight the Blight and either sacrifieced themselves or made a deal to create an old god baby? Yeah totally irrelevant... 

If Hawke never shows up in Kirkwall guess what? Anders still starts a war. Anders is far more important to the history of Thedas than Hawke will ever be. Isabella still steals from the Quanari and at best left Kirkwall in a mess, which doesn't matter because Anders is going to blow it up anyways. If you want to give Hawke credit for anything you can blame Hawke for allowing Flemeth to survive. Hawke is maybe the 5th or 6th most important person in DA2.

Yes, the Warden is more irrelevant.   The only reason you get credit for doing those things is because the person who should be doing them, namely Alistair, says "oh, you be the leader."   It doesn't even make any sense storywise that they pay attention to you instead of Alistair, given that he's senior to you and not a commoner and felon, like most of the warden origins. Besides which, either Alistair or Loghain are equally capable of doing the "godbaby or sacrifice" thing.

The Warden's only important because he's the POV character and the devs said  "people listen to you just because".


The thing that Hawke does that no one else seems likely to be able to do is deal with the Qunari.  No one else has the chance to sort it out without massive bloodshed.  Only Hawke, by virtue of his personality (not his job description), can convince Isabella to return the book (or not) and only Hawke is able to garner enough respect from the Arishok to settle the matter by a duel instead of all out war.

If you want an example of a quest that can play out multiple ways, the Sister Petrice story arc is a good example.   You can kill all the human fanatics, you can let them go, or you can join them in inciting the Qunari to violence.    There's also Feynriel, a quest with a number of distinct endings.  Grace's quest line plays differently depending on various decisions you make at various stages. 

Hawke is important because of what he does.  There's no Duncan to wander up and tap him with the "be important for no reason" wand.  100% of the Warden's significance comes from the fact that Duncan picked him or her to be Alistair's sidekick.  People listen to Hawke after he does impressive stuff, not before.  And not because he's part of some group or has papers telling people they have to.


IMHO, the real reason that some people are dissatisfied with Hawke compared to the Warden is not Hawke is less effective or has fewer choices.  Its entirely because the Warden story is a traditional epic with a clear cut  "yay, we win" moment at the end.   Hawke doesn't win in that sense.  The story is set up so that the villain wins no matter what you do, except perhaps be a knowing ally of the villain.

The devs want the world in a worse place, so they told a story of hopeless heroism and the best Hawke can do is save some lives along the way.   The villain, Anders, wins and gets his war.   A good friend of mine hated "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" the first time he saw it, because the heroes didn't win like you'd expect in a Hollywood movie.  DAO is a Hollywood style action movie.   DA2 is like one of those Chinese epics where the hero doesn't get a clean victory.

[Thor Rand Al]

Vormaerin wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

The Warden is more irrelevant? The same guy/gal who gathered an army (of the player's chosing no less) to fight the Blight and either sacrifieced themselves or made a deal to create an old god baby? Yeah totally irrelevant... 

If Hawke never shows up in Kirkwall guess what? Anders still starts a war. Anders is far more important to the history of Thedas than Hawke will ever be. Isabella still steals from the Quanari and at best left Kirkwall in a mess, which doesn't matter because Anders is going to blow it up anyways. If you want to give Hawke credit for anything you can blame Hawke for allowing Flemeth to survive. Hawke is maybe the 5th or 6th most important person in DA2.

Yes, the Warden is more irrelevant.   The only reason you get credit for doing those things is because the person who should be doing them, namely Alistair, says "oh, you be the leader."   It doesn't even make any sense storywise that they pay attention to you instead of Alistair, given that he's senior to you and not a commoner and felon, like most of the warden origins. Besides which, either Alistair or Loghain are equally capable of doing the "godbaby or sacrifice" thing.

The Warden's only important because he's the POV character and the devs said  "people listen to you just because".


The thing that Hawke does that no one else seems likely to be able to do is deal with the Qunari.  No one else has the chance to sort it out without massive bloodshed.  Only Hawke, by virtue of his personality (not his job description), can convince Isabella to return the book (or not) and only Hawke is able to garner enough respect from the Arishok to settle the matter by a duel instead of all out war.

If you want an example of a quest that can play out multiple ways, the Sister Petrice story arc is a good example.   You can kill all the human fanatics, you can let them go, or you can join them in inciting the Qunari to violence.    There's also Feynriel, a quest with a number of distinct endings.  Grace's quest line plays differently depending on various decisions you make at various stages. 

Hawke is important because of what he does.  There's no Duncan to wander up and tap him with the "be important for no reason" wand.  100% of the Warden's significance comes from the fact that Duncan picked him or her to be Alistair's sidekick.  People listen to Hawke after he does impressive stuff, not before.  And not because he's part of some group or has papers telling people they have to.


IMHO, the real reason that some people are dissatisfied with Hawke compared to the Warden is not Hawke is less effective or has fewer choices.  Its entirely because the Warden story is a traditional epic with a clear cut  "yay, we win" moment at the end.   Hawke doesn't win in that sense.  The story is set up so that the villain wins no matter what you do, except perhaps be a knowing ally of the villain.

The devs want the world in a worse place, so they told a story of hopeless heroism and the best Hawke can do is save some lives along the way.   The villain, Anders, wins and gets his war.   A good friend of mine hated "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" the first time he saw it, because the heroes didn't win like you'd expect in a Hollywood movie.  DAO is a Hollywood style action movie.   DA2 is like one of those Chinese epics where the hero doesn't get a clean victory.

Ty, ty so very much, you've nailed it.  I honestly don't need to say more.  This, this is right on.  

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 17 août 2011 - 06:41 .

[Elhanan]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't consider betraying *spoiler* a good way to be earn power and influence.....

You may not like the selection, but the choice is still available.

And this thread is so full of Spoilers now that it may get Locked before morning....

[phaonica]

Vormaerin wrote...

The thing that Hawke does that no one else seems likely to be able to do is deal with the Qunari.  No one else has the chance to sort it out without massive bloodshed.  Only Hawke, by virtue of his personality (not his job description), can convince Isabella to return the book (or not) and only Hawke is able to garner enough respect from the Arishok to settle the matter by a duel instead of all out war.

If you want an example of a quest that can play out multiple ways, the Sister Petrice story arc is a good example.   You can kill all the human fanatics, you can let them go, or you can join them in inciting the Qunari to violence.    There's also Feynriel, a quest with a number of distinct endings.  Grace's quest line plays differently depending on various decisions you make at various stages. 

I understand what you're saying, that these quests play out different ways based on Hawke's choices, but other than changing the way small, disconnected story arcs play out, they don't seem to *change* anything. The choices give me several different scenic paths to take, but the roads all lead to the same place. And if they do lead to different places, they don't seem impactful, to me, because they in no way alter the main conflict.

IMHO, the real reason that some people are dissatisfied with Hawke compared to the Warden is not Hawke is less effective or has fewer choices.  Its entirely because the Warden story is a traditional epic with a clear cut  "yay, we win" moment at the end.   Hawke doesn't win in that sense. The story is set up so that the villain wins no matter what you do, except perhaps be a knowing ally of the villain.

You seem to be saying that some people don't like Hawke because the ending is not a traditional happy ending.
I don't like the ending because, imo, it is railroaded, which is a direct result of Hawke being ineffective.

[Vormaerin]

phaonica wrote...

You seem to be saying that some people don't like Hawke because the ending is not a traditional happy ending.
I don't like the ending because, imo, it is railroaded, which is a direct result of Hawke being ineffective.

Whereas I don't understand how one can think that DAO isn't at least as much of a railroad.   You can make some cosmetic decisions about how to solve the first four zones (Redcliffe, Forest, Orzammar, Temple), but nothing that impacts the rest of the story noticeably.   And then you have no choice but to go to the Landsmeet doing Eamon's bidding.

From that point on, literally nothing you do makes a jot of difference (except whether you have Loghain or Alistair as your other Warden).   You could alienate every noble in Ferelden or form the greatest coalition in history and it won't change a thing about the Landsmeet.   You fight a duel with Loghain for control of the government.  End of story.  The entire rest of the chapter is just smoke.

And then... you follow Eamon's inept battle plans on a greased chute to the final battle with the archdemon.   Sure, you get a couple more choices about which epilogue slides you get, but that's it.

Bioware's games are always railroads. Attacking DA2 for being a railroad is....bizarre, imho.

[Yrkoon]

Vormaerin wrote...


At least with Hawke, you don't feel like your companions are more important to the plot than you are (except maybe Anders, but then he's a villain).

Your game must not have had Varric in it.

[t0mm06]

Vormaerin wrote...

phaonica wrote...

You seem to be saying that some people don't like Hawke because the ending is not a traditional happy ending.
I don't like the ending because, imo, it is railroaded, which is a direct result of Hawke being ineffective.

Whereas I don't understand how one can think that DAO isn't at least as much of a railroad.   You can make some cosmetic decisions about how to solve the first four zones (Redcliffe, Forest, Orzammar, Temple), but nothing that impacts the rest of the story noticeably.   And then you have no choice but to go to the Landsmeet doing Eamon's bidding.

From that point on, literally nothing you do makes a jot of difference (except whether you have Loghain or Alistair as your other Warden).   You could alienate every noble in Ferelden or form the greatest coalition in history and it won't change a thing about the Landsmeet.   You fight a duel with Loghain for control of the government.  End of story.  The entire rest of the chapter is just smoke.

And then... you follow Eamon's inept battle plans on a greased chute to the final battle with the archdemon.   Sure, you get a couple more choices about which epilogue slides you get, but that's it.

Bioware's games are always railroads. Attacking DA2 for being a railroad is....bizarre, imho.

I'll agree with this almost completly, the difference is that Origins hid it better then DA2 did, BUT i prefer how DA2 ended as origins was just basically a bunch of place cards that te.ll you how everything works out, but DA2 sort of points that the epilouge cards will be replaced with, well DA3 so there is a better connections between games

[Yrkoon]

  And wow, the following post is  a mass of contradictions

Vormaerin wrote...


Whereas I don't understand how one can think that DAO isn't at least as much of a railroad.   You can make some cosmetic decisions about how to solve the first four zones (Redcliffe, Forest, Orzammar, Temple), but nothing that impacts the rest of the story noticeably.   And then you have no choice but to go to the Landsmeet doing Eamon's bidding.

From that point on, literally nothing you do makes a jot of difference (except whether you have Loghain or Alistair as your other Warden).   You could alienate every noble in Ferelden or form the greatest coalition in history and it won't change a thing about the Landsmeet.   You fight a duel with Loghain for control of the government.  End of story.  The entire rest of the chapter is just smoke.

And then... you follow Eamon's inept battle plans on a greased chute to the final battle with the archdemon.   Sure, you get a couple more choices about which epilogue slides you get, but that's it.

Bioware's games are always railroads. Attacking DA2 for being a railroad is....bizarre, imho.

Er... that's quite a few choices/consequences there.  Thanks for pointing them out?

I've got a few more.  You can Defile the Sacred Ashes,  causing open warfare to break out between you and at least 2 of your party members.  (result: you lose them)  You can KILL one of Fereldan's preiminent scholars  (you know, the one who's writings make up almost HALF of DA2's codex entries.  Or... you can choose not to do any of the above.

You can choose to not save Redcliffe village... allowing it to fall, but you mentioned that already.  That one ALONE trumps every single  illusion of choice you get in the entirely of DA2. 

You can sacrifice yourself and  DIE at the end of the game...  but only if you want to.  And I don't know why you're  ho-humming the epilogue slide show.  DA2 doesn't even have  that


And then there's gameplay choices.  You could be a dwarf in DA:O.   Or you can be an elf.  Or a Human.  in DA2 you  can only be Hawke... the human.  In DA:O you  can choose from 6 completely different prologues.    In DA2 you can choose from.. ONE.

In DAO  Your warrior can dual wield, or be an Archer.  In DA2   he  can't
In DA:O your Rogue can equip a sword and shield, Or a 2 handed weapon.  In DA2 he can't
In DA:O your mage can equip and use ANY weapon, Wear ANY armor.    in DA2 he can't
In DA:O you can equip your companions with whatever gear you want them to wear.    Equip them with any weapon,  But you have no such choice in DA2.
in DA:O  Dualwielding is an open, free thing with plenty of choice in and of itself.  Your rogue  (or warrior, or mage) can dual wield swords, maces, daggers, axes... or any combination of these.  In DA2, only your rogue can dual wield, and he can only dual wield daggers.

But I digress.  it's SILLY to even compare the two games.  One is a masterpiece that took 6 years to make, while the other is an 18 month rush job.  

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 août 2011 - 10:12 .

[Zanallen]

@Yrkoon

But none of those choices actually effect anything in game. The game follows the same exact path no matter what choice you make.

[FieryDove]

Vormaerin wrote...

The thing that Hawke does that no one else seems likely to be able to do is deal with the Qunari.  No one else has the chance to sort it out without massive bloodshed.  Only Hawke, by virtue of his personality (not his job description), can convince Isabella to return the book (or not) and only Hawke is able to garner enough respect from the Arishok to settle the matter by a duel instead of all out war.

Someone else would have filled the role and you don't even need to recruit Isabela so the point is moot.

The rest all basically ends the same way with the choice not mattering. If Hawke had been smashed by an ogre at the start of the game things still would have happened without him/her. They just might have taken a bit longer. The companions (some) were the movers and shakers of the entire game. Not a bad thing in itself but many people don't like that kind of story or feeling of having a powerless *hero*.

For my owns gripes/feedback however is not the above it would be:
I wish act 3 was a heck of a lot different and the support the mage ending. I will never understand it. Too much *sameness* is all I can think of atm.

Need coffee.

[Yrkoon]

Zanallen wrote...

@Yrkoon

But none of those choices actually effect anything in game. .

Except, you know... gameplay.

And I'd say doing the ultimate sacrifice affects quite a bit...  mainly the friggin ENDING

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 août 2011 - 10:16 .

[Zanallen]

Yrkoon wrote...

Except, you know... GAMEPLAY

And I'd say doing the ultimate sacrifice affects quite a bit...  mainly the friggin ENDING

Not really. The archdemon dies. The day is saved. The people are slightly more sad than they are otherwise.

[Aradace]

Zanallen wrote...

@Yrkoon

But none of those choices actually effect anything in game. The game follows the same exact path no matter what choice you make.

It's pointless discussing it with him Zan.  At this point his mind is made up and nothing you say will change his mind.  In his mind Origins is a masterpiece and it's inconceivable that anyone could think DA2 is better because if they do they're wrong.  That's what Im getting out of it anyway.  At this point, you just smile and nod and let them have their way.  Placate him.

[Yrkoon]

Zanallen wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Except, you know... GAMEPLAY

And I'd say doing the ultimate sacrifice affects quite a bit...  mainly the friggin ENDING

Not really. The archdemon dies. The day is saved. The people are slightly more sad than they are otherwise.

Uh no,  You can't just  ignore the fact that the game doesn't go to the credits the moment you kill the archdemon.     Because  it doesn't.    The epilogue which follows is utterly mutable based on the decisions you made in the game.  And we're not even talking about the slideshow here.  Your in game actions determine who's there at the cerimony, and what they say to you.  Or even if they say anything to you at all.  because again, you could sacrifice yourself and DIE, and the epilogue will be significiantly different.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 août 2011 - 10:23 .

[Zanallen]

Yrkoon wrote...

Uh no,  You can't just  ignore the fact that the game doesn't go to the credits the moment you kill the archdemon.     Because  it doesn't.    The epilogue which follows is utterly mutable based on the decisions you made in the game.  And we're not even talking about the slideshow here.  Your in game actions determine who's there at the cerimony, and what they say to you.  Or even if they say anything to you at all.  because again, you could sacrifice yourself and DIE, and the epilogue will be significiantly different.

Lol, so because you get a recap of your actions and then a dubious series of cards showing what might happen in the future, the choices are somehow significant?

[Yrkoon]

Zanallen wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Uh no,  You can't just  ignore the fact that the game doesn't go to the credits the moment you kill the archdemon.     Because  it doesn't.    The epilogue which follows is utterly mutable based on the decisions you made in the game.  And we're not even talking about the slideshow here.  Your in game actions determine who's there at the cerimony, and what they say to you.  Or even if they say anything to you at all.  because again, you could sacrifice yourself and DIE, and the epilogue will be significiantly different.

Lol, so because you get a recap of your actions and then a dubious series of cards showing what might happen in the future, the choices are somehow significant?

How about:  more significant than they are in DA2....

Tell me, how did you enjoy the interactive, mutable epilogue that DA2 had?


 Oh wait.   lol

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 août 2011 - 10:52 .

[Vormaerin]

Yrkoon wrote...


Er... that's quite a few choices/consequences there.  Thanks for pointing them out?

And in DA2, you can kill all the Dalish or not.   You can save Feynriel or not.  You can kill templars or lie to them or rat out mages to them in the Decimus quest.   You can oppose, ignore, or ally with the templar guy in Petrice's later quest.  You get different quest options depending on the personality you develop for Hawke.  And so on.

Seriously, you argue that choosing between Loghain and Alistair is significant, but not the choices involving Anders and Sebastian?  That being able to kill Wynne is important, but being able to sell Fenris back into slavery isn't?

Both games are railroads.  Both games have various choices you can make
within the confines of that railroad.  DA2 has more in game effects from
those choices.   DAO gets a lot of epilogue cards, when they weren't
bugged anyway.

[Zanallen]

Yrkoon wrote...

How about:  more significant than they are in DA2....

Tell me, how did you enjoy the interactive, mutable epilogue that DA2 had?

 Oh wait.   lol

I didn't 'cause it didn't. Neither game has actual choices with consequences present within the game. The illusion of choice was slightly better in Origins, but that doesn't make the choices any more real.

[Vormaerin]

Yrkoon wrote...

How about:  more significant than they are in DA2....

Tell me, how did you enjoy the interactive, mutable epilogue that DA2 had?


 Oh wait.   lol

You have no idea if your decisions are more significant in DAO than they are in DA2.   I'd wager that the fate of a unique magical talent capable of reshaping the Fade itself  like Feynriel's is more important than who is king of a backwater country.

And I thought the Seeker cinematics were more entertaining than a bunch of buggy flash cards that often didn't make any sense at all.   Somehow I got an elf on the royal council *and* the alienage pillaged.  That elf boon was sure effective...

[Elhanan]

Zanallen wrote...

Lol, so because you get a recap of your actions and then a dubious series of cards showing what might happen in the future, the choices are somehow significant?

Actually, because all choices matter, whether or not they seem significant at the time.

Many of the choices one makes in DAO and DAA can have a carrying effect within DA2, and when properly patched, more should follow. Such things as who sits on the throne, dead or alive and appears (or is mentioned) in Kirkwall, whether the Circle had a royal decree of freedom from which to help defend their cause, whether the curse of lycanthropy was lifted, Circle was razed, etc.

Generally, only time will reveal the historical significance of choice, but each bears value. Small choices matter; Rosa Parks springs to mind, as does newsman Paul Harvey and The Rest of the Story. Now some say that within a game, choice loses such significance, but as we see from DAO, DAA, and within DA2, small choices still have weight; how much weight is determined by the writers and design staff.

[Yrkoon]

Vormaerin wrote...


Seriously, you argue that choosing between Loghain and Alistair is significant,

First of all, I argued no such thing.  And don't start with the retarded internet  debate tactic of putting words into people's mouths.  I *hate* that.

Second, My  story examples were ALL  main-quests.   HUGE difference from  the  secondary/side quests you've cited.  The Patrice example being the exception, but what consequence, exactly, comes out of that... besides lowering  the  Arishok respect meter by 1 or 2 points?

Third, if both games are railroads, then  I'll  choose the one that offers most scenic ride, and takes me to the most places.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 août 2011 - 11:19 .