Prince_12 wrote...
Ramza_1 wrote...
Well done. A brick is a brick. A frog is a frog. A phone is a phone. Your contribution is appreciated, but why don't you sit quietly and let the adults with the slightly more developed reasoning ability have their turn?
I wish adults would stop making old threads and bringing old topics up again and again...
Modifié par GabrielXL, 17 août 2011 - 11:14 .
Elhanan wrote...
Actually, because all choices matter, whether or not they seem significant at the time.
Many of the choices one makes in DAO and DAA can have a carrying effect within DA2, and when properly patched, more should follow. Such things as who sits on the throne, dead or alive and appears (or is mentioned) in Kirkwall, whether the Circle had a royal decree of freedom from which to help defend their cause, whether the curse of lycanthropy was lifted, Circle was razed, etc.
Generally, only time will reveal the historical significance of choice, but each bears value. Small choices matter; Rosa Parks springs to mind, as does newsman Paul Harvey and The Rest of the Story. Now some say that within a game, choice loses such significance, but as we see from DAO, DAA, and within DA2, small choices still have weight; how much weight is determined by the writers and design staff.
FieryDove wrote...
Someone else would have filled the role and you don't even need to recruit Isabela so the point is moot.
.
Yrkoon wrote...
Third, if both games are railroads, then I'll choose the one that offers most scenic ride, and takes me to the most places.
whykikyouwhy wrote...
Same with Loghain from DAO. He was a complex individual; even at the very end it is arguable that he was a villain or simply misled. There is contention about whether he should be killed or not.
From where I sit, there was nothing complex or "arguable" about Loghain. He was a self-absorbed prig who enjoyed basking in his own legend and was too pigheaded (like Cailan) to embrace the truth surrounding his situation at present.
Modifié par GabrielXL, 17 août 2011 - 11:28 .
Of course I do. Since DA:O actually had a closure-type ending where we get to see what happened. While DA: 2 gives us some vague "to be continued, maybe" type ending that does not change AT ALL regardless of anything you did in the game.Vormaerin wrote...
Yrkoon wrote...
How about: more significant than they are in DA2....
Tell me, how did you enjoy the interactive, mutable epilogue that DA2 had?
Oh wait. lol
You have no idea if your decisions are more significant in DAO than they are in DA2.
Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 août 2011 - 11:35 .
GabrielXL wrote...
Au contraire mon ami...
Vormaerin wrote...
To be fair, you don't actually know what the Orlesians intended to do with their army once it entered the country. The only "Truth" he was definitely wrong about was not needing the Wardens and he had absolutely no way of knowing the 'must have a warden to defeat the archdemon' thing existed. If not for that secret, who's to say he couldn't have defeated the blight militarily? He couldn't have come up with a stupider battle plan than Eamon did, that's for sure.
He's certainly a villain, but he's not a scumbag like Rendon Howe.
Zanallen wrote...
Going by Bioware's current track record for imports, I am hesitant to believe that your choices will have any more impact than a cameo or maybe a quest or two. That being said, who ruled in Ferelden had no real bearing on DA2 other than a cameo. Same with what happened to Leliana or anyone else. Cameos and a couple of quests. They can't do much else beyond that because it creates too many variables that screw up the plot.
Elhanan wrote...
And there it goes; just because one may see choices as insignificant does not mean all do. If so, the furor and work Bioware is doing on patching these events would not be needed.
Personally, I hold the appearance of Leliana as one of the major moments for myself, and was pleased in one playthrough to see Nathaniel Howe offer his bow during the conclusion. And the spirits that attack the party during Merrill's personal quest have names; making the moment a bit richer for the inclusion.
Guess the same could be said for Codex Entries and Item Histories; not small concerns for everyone, and can improve the game for many. Personally, I have not read many of them, but am aware that they help enrich the overall experience.
Small choices matter.
Zanallen wrote...
A good number of issues spring up from broken flags in Origins and won't ever be patched. At best, you can hope that Bioware releases something similar to the comic for ME2 or maybe just a way to click what decisions you want to import. It won't be all the decisions, just the major ones.
Modifié par Elhanan, 17 août 2011 - 12:53 .
Vormaerin wrote...
TheAwesomologist wrote...
The Warden is more irrelevant? The same guy/gal who gathered an army (of the player's chosing no less) to fight the Blight and either sacrifieced themselves or made a deal to create an old god baby? Yeah totally irrelevant...
If Hawke never shows up in Kirkwall guess what? Anders still starts a war. Anders is far more important to the history of Thedas than Hawke will ever be. Isabella still steals from the Quanari and at best left Kirkwall in a mess, which doesn't matter because Anders is going to blow it up anyways. If you want to give Hawke credit for anything you can blame Hawke for allowing Flemeth to survive. Hawke is maybe the 5th or 6th most important person in DA2.
Yes, the Warden is more irrelevant. The only reason you get credit for doing those things is because the person who should be doing them, namely Alistair, says "oh, you be the leader." It doesn't even make any sense storywise that they pay attention to you instead of Alistair, given that he's senior to you and not a commoner and felon, like most of the warden origins. Besides which, either Alistair or Loghain are equally capable of doing the "godbaby or sacrifice" thing.
The Warden's only important because he's the POV character and the devs said "people listen to you just because".
The thing that Hawke does that no one else seems likely to be able to do is deal with the Qunari. No one else has the chance to sort it out without massive bloodshed. Only Hawke, by virtue of his personality (not his job description), can convince Isabella to return the book (or not) and only Hawke is able to garner enough respect from the Arishok to settle the matter by a duel instead of all out war.
If you want an example of a quest that can play out multiple ways, the Sister Petrice story arc is a good example. You can kill all the human fanatics, you can let them go, or you can join them in inciting the Qunari to violence. There's also Feynriel, a quest with a number of distinct endings. Grace's quest line plays differently depending on various decisions you make at various stages.
Hawke is important because of what he does. There's no Duncan to wander up and tap him with the "be important for no reason" wand. 100% of the Warden's significance comes from the fact that Duncan picked him or her to be Alistair's sidekick. People listen to Hawke after he does impressive stuff, not before. And not because he's part of some group or has papers telling people they have to.
IMHO, the real reason that some people are dissatisfied with Hawke compared to the Warden is not Hawke is less effective or has fewer choices. Its entirely because the Warden story is a traditional epic with a clear cut "yay, we win" moment at the end. Hawke doesn't win in that sense. The story is set up so that the villain wins no matter what you do, except perhaps be a knowing ally of the villain.
The devs want the world in a worse place, so they told a story of hopeless heroism and the best Hawke can do is save some lives along the way. The villain, Anders, wins and gets his war. A good friend of mine hated "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" the first time he saw it, because the heroes didn't win like you'd expect in a Hollywood movie. DAO is a Hollywood style action movie. DA2 is like one of those Chinese epics where the hero doesn't get a clean victory.
phaonica wrote...
Vormaerin wrote...
The thing that Hawke does that no one else seems likely to be able to do is deal with the Qunari. No one else has the chance to sort it out without massive bloodshed. Only Hawke, by virtue of his personality (not his job description), can convince Isabella to return the book (or not) and only Hawke is able to garner enough respect from the Arishok to settle the matter by a duel instead of all out war.
If you want an example of a quest that can play out multiple ways, the Sister Petrice story arc is a good example. You can kill all the human fanatics, you can let them go, or you can join them in inciting the Qunari to violence. There's also Feynriel, a quest with a number of distinct endings. Grace's quest line plays differently depending on various decisions you make at various stages.
I understand what you're saying, that these quests play out different ways based on Hawke's choices, but other than changing the way small, disconnected story arcs play out, they don't seem to *change* anything. The choices give me several different scenic paths to take, but the roads all lead to the same place. And if they do lead to different places, they don't seem impactful, to me, because they in no way alter the main conflict.
GabrielXL wrote...
whykikyouwhy wrote...
Same with Loghain from DAO. He was a complex individual; even at the very end it is arguable that he was a villain or simply misled. There is contention about whether he should be killed or not.
Au contraire mon ami...
Vormaerin wrote...
At least with Hawke, you don't feel like your companions are more important to the plot than you are (except maybe Anders, but then he's a villain).
Modifié par csfteeeer, 17 août 2011 - 01:47 .
Vormaerin wrote...
At least with Hawke, you don't feel like your companions are more important to the plot than you are (except maybe Anders, but then he's a villain).
Vormaerin wrote...
TheAwesomologist wrote...
The Warden is more irrelevant? The same guy/gal who gathered an army (of the player's chosing no less) to fight the Blight and either sacrifieced themselves or made a deal to create an old god baby? Yeah totally irrelevant...
If Hawke never shows up in Kirkwall guess what? Anders still starts a war. Anders is far more important to the history of Thedas than Hawke will ever be. Isabella still steals from the Quanari and at best left Kirkwall in a mess, which doesn't matter because Anders is going to blow it up anyways. If you want to give Hawke credit for anything you can blame Hawke for allowing Flemeth to survive. Hawke is maybe the 5th or 6th most important person in DA2.
Yes, the Warden is more irrelevant. The only reason you get credit for doing those things is because the person who should be doing them, namely Alistair, says "oh, you be the leader." It doesn't even make any sense storywise that they pay attention to you instead of Alistair, given that he's senior to you and not a commoner and felon, like most of the warden origins. Besides which, either Alistair or Loghain are equally capable of doing the "godbaby or sacrifice" thing.
The Warden's only important because he's the POV character and the devs said "people listen to you just because".
The thing that Hawke does that no one else seems likely to be able to do is deal with the Qunari. No one else has the chance to sort it out without massive bloodshed. Only Hawke, by virtue of his personality (not his job description), can convince Isabella to return the book (or not) and only Hawke is able to garner enough respect from the Arishok to settle the matter by a duel instead of all out war.
If you want an example of a quest that can play out multiple ways, the Sister Petrice story arc is a good example. You can kill all the human fanatics, you can let them go, or you can join them in inciting the Qunari to violence. There's also Feynriel, a quest with a number of distinct endings. Grace's quest line plays differently depending on various decisions you make at various stages.
Hawke is important because of what he does. There's no Duncan to wander up and tap him with the "be important for no reason" wand. 100% of the Warden's significance comes from the fact that Duncan picked him or her to be Alistair's sidekick. People listen to Hawke after he does impressive stuff, not before. And not because he's part of some group or has papers telling people they have to.
IMHO, the real reason that some people are dissatisfied with Hawke compared to the Warden is not Hawke is less effective or has fewer choices. Its entirely because the Warden story is a traditional epic with a clear cut "yay, we win" moment at the end. Hawke doesn't win in that sense. The story is set up so that the villain wins no matter what you do, except perhaps be a knowing ally of the villain.
The devs want the world in a worse place, so they told a story of hopeless heroism and the best Hawke can do is save some lives along the way. The villain, Anders, wins and gets his war. A good friend of mine hated "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" the first time he saw it, because the heroes didn't win like you'd expect in a Hollywood movie. DAO is a Hollywood style action movie. DA2 is like one of those Chinese epics where the hero doesn't get a clean victory.
jlb524 wrote...
Anders' villain status depends on what side of this war you fall on.
Monica21 wrote...
I've just woken up, so can someone explain if we're talking about the game being railroaded or Hawke being powerless? Because the two are not the same.
Mostly agree, but for different reasons.alex90c wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
I've just woken up, so can someone explain if we're talking about the game being railroaded or Hawke being powerless? Because the two are not the same.
Still both true though
Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 17 août 2011 - 02:58 .
Alistar conceeds to you because he's incompetent (sorry Alistar fans but he says it himself, as do other companions). But the bolded part tickled me the most. You've just described every video game ever made. No one wants to play Robin, they want to play Batman.Vormaerin wrote...
TheAwesomologist wrote...
The Warden is more irrelevant? The same guy/gal who gathered an army (of the player's chosing no less) to fight the Blight and either sacrifieced themselves or made a deal to create an old god baby? Yeah totally irrelevant...
If Hawke never shows up in Kirkwall guess what? Anders still starts a war. Anders is far more important to the history of Thedas than Hawke will ever be. Isabella still steals from the Quanari and at best left Kirkwall in a mess, which doesn't matter because Anders is going to blow it up anyways. If you want to give Hawke credit for anything you can blame Hawke for allowing Flemeth to survive. Hawke is maybe the 5th or 6th most important person in DA2.
Yes, the Warden is more irrelevant. The only reason you get credit for doing those things is because the person who should be doing them, namely Alistair, says "oh, you be the leader." It doesn't even make any sense storywise that they pay attention to you instead of Alistair, given that he's senior to you and not a commoner and felon, like most of the warden origins. Besides which, either Alistair or Loghain are equally capable of doing the "godbaby or sacrifice" thing.
The Warden's only important because he's the POV character and the devs said "people listen to you just because".
Hey I'm in full agreement that the Qunari quest line is the best in DA2 even if you're just the errand boy for the Arishok and the Viscount. If you take Fenris with you the first time you speak with the Arishok in Act 1 you'll find he's pretty competent as well with dealing with the Qunari, so shouldn't he be taking the lead? No because it's a game where you get to play the main character not the sidekick. See the Alistair falicy swings both ways.The thing that Hawke does that no one else seems likely to be able to do is deal with the Qunari. No one else has the chance to sort it out without massive bloodshed. Only Hawke, by virtue of his personality (not his job description), can convince Isabella to return the book (or not) and only Hawke is able to garner enough respect from the Arishok to settle the matter by a duel instead of all out war.
DA:O had tons of these moments, that had a bigger impact on Ferelden and Thedas as a whole no less (The fate of Redcliff, the fate of the Dalish Elves/Werewolves, The fate of the Circle in Ferelden, The fate of Orzimar. At best Hawke deals with a angry Sister, a scared elf boy, and a bunch of inexplecable psychotic blood mages. His influence only ever extends to one city and it's tenous at best (you get 3 years of being a Champion yet you see or gain nothing for it. If you become Viscount you see even less and still disappear).If you want an example of a quest that can play out multiple ways, the Sister Petrice story arc is a good example. You can kill all the human fanatics, you can let them go, or you can join them in inciting the Qunari to violence. There's also Feynriel, a quest with a number of distinct endings. Grace's quest line plays differently depending on various decisions you make at various stages.
100% of what Hawke does is because Flemeth tapped him on the shoulder. Your point? None of what Hawke does matters because at the end, Anders starts a war. At best you're Anders' sidekick.Hawke is important because of what he does. There's no Duncan to wander up and tap him with the "be important for no reason" wand. 100% of the Warden's significance comes from the fact that Duncan picked him or her to be Alistair's sidekick. People listen to Hawke after he does impressive stuff, not before. And not because he's part of some group or has papers telling people they have to.
I'm fine if Hawke loses. In fact I would have preffered if he had died at the end of DA2 since it would have made much more sense being a Martyr for either cause. Oh wait we have a Martyr already in Anders... I'm also fine with a cliff hanger ending, but this one sucked. I know that's entirely my opinion but I can't help but look at the last Act of DA2 and wonder what kind of stupid pills were taken to write that story. Orsino and Meredith are last minute scooby-doo bad guys, Hawke is utterly innefective, Cullen and Thrask are dumber than bricks, and every mage is batshiat crazy. How does that make for a compelling story? This has nothing to do with a Traditional story or not. When Varric finished his story you know what I expected? A Kaiser Soze moment where it's revealed that Varric and Anders planned the whole thing all along and Casandra doesn't figure it out until Varric has left the building.IMHO, the real reason that some people are dissatisfied with Hawke compared to the Warden is not Hawke is less effective or has fewer choices. Its entirely because the Warden story is a traditional epic with a clear cut "yay, we win" moment at the end. Hawke doesn't win in that sense. The story is set up so that the villain wins no matter what you do, except perhaps be a knowing ally of the villain.
What the devs got was the Dragon Age franchise in a worse place.The devs want the world in a worse place, so they told a story of hopeless heroism and the best Hawke can do is save some lives along the way. The villain, Anders, wins and gets his war. A good friend of mine hated "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" the first time he saw it, because the heroes didn't win like you'd expect in a Hollywood movie. DAO is a Hollywood style action movie. DA2 is like one of those Chinese epics where the hero doesn't get a clean victory.
Retour en haut
