286 réponses à ce sujet

[Sunnie]

Arppis wrote...

Why even argue about facts anyhows? It is how it is, males are generaly stronger than females.

And yes, games aren't realistic. So I do understand if they want to make female Shepard as strong as male Shepard is. But wouldn't it be more impressive if she would use her brain to replace the lack of size and muscle mass? I'd think it would be great if they would have done it like that and bit more realistic too.

If you want to introduce a lot more reality into the game, that would be fine, and I would expect that would be the case. though that would also require a lot of what is in the game to be thrown out as implausible for the game world in turn. The truth of the matter is that it's a game, on a tight schedule, and creating separate content to divide male/female protagonists by something as trivial as strength/pound of mass would cost a lot more in both time and money, only to have it nulled out by the introduction of cybernetic devices and enhancements anyway. Discussing strength within the context of the game world is one thing, bringing reality into it is another since clearly, reality has no bearing within the game world.

[Arppis]

Arcian wrote...

Wow, people really still think "musclemass = physical prowess"?

Men and women both have the same muscle capacity, it's just that women's muscles are much more tightly packed. Swollen muscles in men are primarily a sexual characteristic, and not a physical one. Also, men have a much easier time building muscles than women due to significantly larger amounts of testosterone, which incidentally happens to be the male sexual hormone.

Besides, in combat hysterical strength takes over, anyway.

No, men have more muscle mass then women do. Men have more muscle fibers due their greater muscle mass. Men remain stronger than females, when adjusting for differences in
total body mass. But this is ofcourse on average. This study I read said that women have basicaly only 60% of total male strength, if I recall right...

[looloolooigotsomeapples]

Brand New wrote...

looloolooigotsomeapples wrote...

Brand New wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

Brand New wrote...

There is no logical disagreement or atleast for the mostp art. It is just a bunch of people crying sexist and making up gentic altercations in their heads. My opinion is mere fact theirs is speculation.

By saying your opinion is fact doesn't make it an opinion.

Male Shep is possibly physically superior but so much so that it would make a difference. They are obviously close enough that most situations can be handled the same way. The only true difference is paragon and renegade. I prefer it that way since it makes things less complicated.

Ok then I'll be more clear.

My opinion is based of facts and not jargon I am making up as I go along like most in this thread. Men and Women are different. If anything it is sexist the they make femshep just like male shep.

There are so many obvious faults in almost all these disagreements.

Miranda even states all your talent is natural.

Talent. Talent is not physical prowess or the strength of an implant. Shepard also said that they noticed a few "upgrades", implying that they were . . . upgraded. Feasibly, part of that could be strength. That being said, it is speculation and you're right, concrete evidence that is available suggests male Shepards are stronger. However, like I said in my previous post, it is clearly on a small scale due to what femshep has done so far and she is just as capable in every situation we've seen, so there's really no reason to change it when resources would have to be spent. 

Capable because this was never taken into consideration. Herp Derp.
You obviously can't base their strenthgh on cutscenes etc in past games when the argument is that it should have een different and should be in this game.

Thanks for the herp derp, very necessary <_<

My point is that it has clearly not been an issue before, except things like the Yahg or Grunt that you've mentioned. Even then, speculating that femshep actually wouldn't have had the physical prowess to do it is just as well-founded as people speculating about implants. You're right, the male shepard does probably have more physical strength than femshep does, but femsheps strength is nonetheless adequate for the situations they are portraying, clearly. So it really shouldn't matter and they shouldn't squander budget, time, and resources on such a dubious feature. 

[Arppis]

Sunnie22 wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Why even argue about facts anyhows? It is how it is, males are generaly stronger than females.

And yes, games aren't realistic. So I do understand if they want to make female Shepard as strong as male Shepard is. But wouldn't it be more impressive if she would use her brain to replace the lack of size and muscle mass? I'd think it would be great if they would have done it like that and bit more realistic too.

If you want to introduce a lot more reality into the game, that would be fine, and I would expect that would be the case. though that would also require a lot of what is in the game to be thrown out as implausible for the game world in turn. The truth of the matter is that it's a game, on a tight schedule, and creating separate content to divide male/female protagonists by something as trivial as strength/pound of mass would cost a lot more in both time and money, only to have it nulled out by the introduction of cybernetic devices and enhancements anyway. Discussing strength within the context of the game world is one thing, bringing reality into it is another since clearly, reality has no bearing within the game world.

I know, but trying to make it more realistic in some ways usualy leads to better game... But not always, wouldn't want to spend 3 months in hospital after every gunshot wound. XD

[Lotion Soronarr]

jreezy wrote...
What case? There's nothing that proves Sheploo is physically superior to FemShep.

You mean other than the fact that all special forces in the world are male?
Or that all world records are male?

All other thing being equal, men have a physical advantage. It's a fact of life. Deal with it.

[magicalzero]

Arppis wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Wow, people really still think "musclemass = physical prowess"?

Men and women both have the same muscle capacity, it's just that women's muscles are much more tightly packed. Swollen muscles in men are primarily a sexual characteristic, and not a physical one. Also, men have a much easier time building muscles than women due to significantly larger amounts of testosterone, which incidentally happens to be the male sexual hormone.

Besides, in combat hysterical strength takes over, anyway.

No, men have more muscle mass then women do. Men have more muscle fibers due their greater muscle mass. Men remain stronger than females, when adjusting for differences in
total body mass. But this is ofcourse on average. This study I read said that women have basicaly only 60% of total male strength, if I recall right...

"On average" men are stronger than women, sure. There are many reasons for that, some biological and some social like for example an aversion to weight lifting and physically demanding jobs among women.(This is actually problematic in real life because it means women are much more likely to develop **** like osteoporosis)

So? Please explain why the "average" would matter in a game about a superhuman space marine. Shepard is not average in any way, shape or form. Both males and females can achieve a very high level of physical strength and fitness, and while males could go further it's incredibly difficult and not feasible unless you basically devote your life to it, like athletes or bodybuilders. Either way, there would be no benefit for a soldier.

[Reptillius]

Jeth Prime wrote...

Reptillius wrote...

Your argueing a smaller lighter frame vs. a bigger heavier one...  Male vs. female aside (even if part of the argument here revolves around females having smaller lighter frames)...  My point remains valid.

I'm not arguing anything. The game is what it is. They're equal, or at least close to it.

However; logicaly, if both of them have the same training, and what not, the one with more muscle mass should be able to do more, with that training. Right or wrong?

no. Not necessarily.  Not only can I point to my above example. to illustrate that they do not necessarily become more capable for increased size.

But I can also point to something more complicated and over dramatized.  That of Martial Arts...

In Martial Arts when you have two people of equal training and equal skill. It is not usually the one with more mass that wins the confrontation despite what various sources want to claim. It is the one that best mixes multiple factors of their body.   The one that has the best mix of Agility, Strength, Stamina, and Mental acuity is the one that the contest favors.    This is actually true for many forms of close combat.

Incidently it is also why various martial arts promote emotional and physical control over oneself and peace of mind.

Modifié par Reptillius, 16 août 2011 - 09:06 .

[Darkelefantos1]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jreezy wrote...
What case? There's nothing that proves Sheploo is physically superior to FemShep.

You mean other than the fact that all special forces in the world are male?
Or that all world records are male?

All other thing being equal, men have a physical advantage. It's a fact of life. Deal with it.

Wait...so the record for largest breast size is held by a man? Implications unpleasant. <_<

[Giant ambush beetle]

I know men & women equality and so on, but lets be realistic, men are physically stronger than women. You can argue about the physical enhancements Shepard has received during project Lazarus, but man Shep is still stronger than fem Shep if both have received the same enhancements. And it doesn't look like Cerberus has rebuilt Shepard's biceps with hydraulic cylinders.
However, in my opinion thats not an issue in ME, its not like man Shepard is lifting Krogan around or wrestles Reapers with his bare hands so Fem Shep should be able do what Man Shep does. Though adding more believability wouldn't hurt, man Shep is kind of trained while fem Shep has twig arms like a catwalk model, if shes physically strong make her look physically strong(er).

[ZenJestr]

the only time this bothered me (Femshep doing something Manshep did) was the scene where Shep plays Punch-Out!! with the Shadow Broker....it wasn't even believable that Manshep could punch out a space bear fish demon thing....but when Femshep's twigs she calls arms not only punched the Shadow Broker but made him stagger back ...no...I'm sorry...

everything else, though is fine...

the only way I can rationalize the SB scene is if the Lazarus Project gave Shep super strength via cybernetics...which seems to be the case...

[Crimmsonwind]

>.> Well, OP, I appreciate that you don't "mean" it to be degrading, but it still comes across pretty arrogant.

Now, in the case of Femshep vs Sheploo in terms of strength, they've both been augmented and you can buy all kinds of bone and muscle weaves that increased your strength. I'd say they're pretty much even, considering the work Cerberus went through to put them back together.

Men and women are supposed to be equals at this point in time, in the game. There are still a couple of characters that treat you differently (Harkin in ME1, for one) but if you were to present Femshep as struggling just a little bit more to lift a chunk of metal as opposed to sheploo, it would imply that she's weaker and therefore unequal in some way. Which is the wrong visual cue to send.

And then there's the technical side of it. You'd have to animate and code two different sets of animations and values and put in a ton of work that just wouldn't be worth it. There is a time and a place for different animations. Physically exerting scenes are not that place. Femshep walking like a man in a dress is a good time for a different animation, especially when she's trying to blend in to a party.

Modifié par Crimmsonwind, 16 août 2011 - 09:08 .

[Arppis]

magicalzero wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Wow, people really still think "musclemass = physical prowess"?

Men and women both have the same muscle capacity, it's just that women's muscles are much more tightly packed. Swollen muscles in men are primarily a sexual characteristic, and not a physical one. Also, men have a much easier time building muscles than women due to significantly larger amounts of testosterone, which incidentally happens to be the male sexual hormone.

Besides, in combat hysterical strength takes over, anyway.

No, men have more muscle mass then women do. Men have more muscle fibers due their greater muscle mass. Men remain stronger than females, when adjusting for differences in
total body mass. But this is ofcourse on average. This study I read said that women have basicaly only 60% of total male strength, if I recall right...

"On average" men are stronger than women, sure. There are many reasons for that, some biological and some social like for example an aversion to weight lifting and physically demanding jobs among women.(This is actually problematic in real life because it means women are much more likely to develop **** like osteoporosis)

So? Please explain why the "average" would matter in a game about a superhuman space marine. Shepard is not average in any way, shape or form. Both males and females can achieve a very high level of physical strength and fitness, and while males could go further it's incredibly difficult and not feasible unless you basically devote your life to it, like athletes or bodybuilders. Either way, there would be no benefit for a soldier.

Surely, but as we can see the mass male Shepard has is bigger than what female Shepard has. And Male Shepard isn't fat by any means, he has more muscle fiber, clearly. He also has bit more weight to put that behind the punches and such. Not to mention, he is carrying heavier gear than female Shepard is. He may not be "average", but even his body size and type and muscle mass says that he SHOULD BE physicaly stronger than female Shepard...

But as I said before, this game rarely bets on realism. So it's not really important that female Shepard can do what male Shepard can. As people said earlier, it's something that saves time for developers.

Modifié par Arppis, 16 août 2011 - 09:09 .

[Maggot4everr]

Everyone arguing with OP is freaking ridiculous. People are arguing, "Some men are weaker than women!" or, "That's sexist!" Realistically, Sheploo is freaking huge compared to FemShep. BUT, the loophole with their strength being equal is I'm sure their suit amplifies their strength or something to that effect.

[Crimmsonwind]

The Woldan wrote...

I know men & women equality and so on, but lets be realistic, men are physically stronger than women. You can argue about the physical enhancements Shepard has received during project Lazarus, but man Shep is still stronger than fem Shep if both have received the same enhancements. And it doesn't look like Cerberus has rebuilt Shepard's biceps with hydraulic cylinders.
However, in my opinion thats not an issue in ME, its not like man Shepard is lifting Krogan around or wrestles Reapers with his bare hands so Fem Shep should be able do what Man Shep does. Though adding more believability wouldn't hurt, man Shep is kind of trained while fem Shep has twig arms like a catwalk model, if shes physically strong make her look physically strong(er).

In terms of appearance, yeah, her arms are kind of thin, for her strength, but she doesn't look anorexic. I wouldn't mind if they gave us an option to bulk up our arms a little. Not body-builder arms, but toned. But she does have the body of an athletic individual.

[bleetman]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You mean other than the fact that all special forces in the world are male?
Or that all world records are male?

Really? Are you sure it's all? Are you sure it's not some?

[magicalzero]

Arppis wrote...

magicalzero wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Wow, people really still think "musclemass = physical prowess"?

Men and women both have the same muscle capacity, it's just that women's muscles are much more tightly packed. Swollen muscles in men are primarily a sexual characteristic, and not a physical one. Also, men have a much easier time building muscles than women due to significantly larger amounts of testosterone, which incidentally happens to be the male sexual hormone.

Besides, in combat hysterical strength takes over, anyway.

No, men have more muscle mass then women do. Men have more muscle fibers due their greater muscle mass. Men remain stronger than females, when adjusting for differences in
total body mass. But this is ofcourse on average. This study I read said that women have basicaly only 60% of total male strength, if I recall right...

"On average" men are stronger than women, sure. There are many reasons for that, some biological and some social like for example an aversion to weight lifting and physically demanding jobs among women.(This is actually problematic in real life because it means women are much more likely to develop **** like osteoporosis)

So? Please explain why the "average" would matter in a game about a superhuman space marine. Shepard is not average in any way, shape or form. Both males and females can achieve a very high level of physical strength and fitness, and while males could go further it's incredibly difficult and not feasible unless you basically devote your life to it, like athletes or bodybuilders. Either way, there would be no benefit for a soldier.

Surely, but as we can see the mass male Shepard has is bigger than what female Shepard has. And Male Shepard isn't fat by any means, he has more muscle fiber, clearly. He also has bit more weight to put that behind the punches and such. Not to mention, he is carrying heavier gear than female Shepard is. He may not be "average", but even his body size and type and muscle mass says that he SHOULD BE physicaly stronger than female Shepard...

But as I said before, this game rarely bets on realism. So it's not really important that female Shepard can do what male Shepard can. As people said earlier, it's something that saves time for developers.

I wrote a post on this a page ago so I'll just repeat myself:

Before making comments like this you might want to achieve at least a rudimentary understanding of human physiology. Even at exactly equal physical strength a female would still look smaller because of her lack of testosterone. That is why females do not get buff or bulk up in the same way males do; it has nothing do to with physical weakness. When you look at athletic and fit individuals, bulk is a very poor indicator of their capabilities - especially when you compare men and women.

Note: I agree that the female character model is pretty bad in several ways.

Modifié par magicalzero, 16 août 2011 - 09:14 .

[Reptillius]

Darkelefantos1 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jreezy wrote...
What case? There's nothing that proves Sheploo is physically superior to FemShep.

You mean other than the fact that all special forces in the world are male?
Or that all world records are male?

All other thing being equal, men have a physical advantage. It's a fact of life. Deal with it.

Wait...so the record for largest breast size is held by a man? Implications unpleasant. <_<

Drake's mental image potentially leaving me scarred aside... his Sarcasm has basis.

Most special forces in the world are male for a reason.  Very few militaries are big on women being in their number. Even those that do still have issues about them being in front line or heavy combat positions.  That means that the argument of men's better capability by using these as an example as a falacy from the get go.

[Giant ambush beetle]

Crimmsonwind wrote...
In terms of appearance, yeah, her arms are kind of thin, for her strength, but she doesn't look anorexic. I wouldn't mind if they gave us an option to bulk up our arms a little. Not body-builder arms, but toned. But she does have the body of an athletic individual.

I agree, shes actually athletic looking, and that makes the fact that her arms are mere twigs even more obvious and irritating. A bit more fem Shep arm muscle toning would be much appreciated.

[Arppis]

magicalzero wrote...

Arppis wrote...

magicalzero wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Wow, people really still think "musclemass = physical prowess"?

Men and women both have the same muscle capacity, it's just that women's muscles are much more tightly packed. Swollen muscles in men are primarily a sexual characteristic, and not a physical one. Also, men have a much easier time building muscles than women due to significantly larger amounts of testosterone, which incidentally happens to be the male sexual hormone.

Besides, in combat hysterical strength takes over, anyway.

No, men have more muscle mass then women do. Men have more muscle fibers due their greater muscle mass. Men remain stronger than females, when adjusting for differences in
total body mass. But this is ofcourse on average. This study I read said that women have basicaly only 60% of total male strength, if I recall right...

"On average" men are stronger than women, sure. There are many reasons for that, some biological and some social like for example an aversion to weight lifting and physically demanding jobs among women.(This is actually problematic in real life because it means women are much more likely to develop **** like osteoporosis)

So? Please explain why the "average" would matter in a game about a superhuman space marine. Shepard is not average in any way, shape or form. Both males and females can achieve a very high level of physical strength and fitness, and while males could go further it's incredibly difficult and not feasible unless you basically devote your life to it, like athletes or bodybuilders. Either way, there would be no benefit for a soldier.

Surely, but as we can see the mass male Shepard has is bigger than what female Shepard has. And Male Shepard isn't fat by any means, he has more muscle fiber, clearly. He also has bit more weight to put that behind the punches and such. Not to mention, he is carrying heavier gear than female Shepard is. He may not be "average", but even his body size and type and muscle mass says that he SHOULD BE physicaly stronger than female Shepard...

But as I said before, this game rarely bets on realism. So it's not really important that female Shepard can do what male Shepard can. As people said earlier, it's something that saves time for developers.

I wrote a post on this a page ago so I'll just repeat myself:

Before making comments like this you might want to achieve at least a rudimentary understanding of human physiology. Even at exactly equal physical strength a female would still look smaller because of her lack of testosterone. That is why females do not get buff or bulk up in the same way males do; it has nothing do to with physical weakness. When you look at athletic and fit individuals, bulk is a very poor indicator of their capabilities - especially when you compare men and women.

Note: I agree that the female character model is pretty bad in several ways.

Testosterone actualy affects the muscle mass. So yeah.

"The greater muscle mass of males is in turn due to a greater capacity for muscular hypertrophy as a result of men's higher levels of testosterone."

You have to remember too that there are heavy weight boxers and such.

Modifié par Arppis, 16 août 2011 - 09:21 .

[Zu Long]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jreezy wrote...
What case? There's nothing that proves Sheploo is physically superior to FemShep.

You mean other than the fact that all special forces in the world are male?

You mean the fact that the current Secretary of Defense admitted there isn't a good reason for this and that it will be phased out over time?

[Arppis]

Zu Long wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jreezy wrote...
What case? There's nothing that proves Sheploo is physically superior to FemShep.

You mean other than the fact that all special forces in the world are male?

You mean the fact that the current Secretary of Defense admitted there isn't a good reason for this and that it will be phased out over time?

Good to hear! 

[Maggot4everr]

God can a moderator come in here and lock this thread? It's become a war over which gender is better.

Modifié par Maggot4everr, 16 août 2011 - 09:24 .

[Giant ambush beetle]

Zu Long wrote...
You mean the fact that the current Secretary of Defense admitted there isn't a good reason for this and that it will be phased out over time?

Politics.
A lot of specialized military branches accept women, the problem is they don't pass the physical acceptance test (obstacle course). For example the Marines.

[Arppis]

Maggot4everr wrote...

God can a moderator come in here and lock this thread? It's become a war over which gender is better.

Chill, dude. It's not that bad yet! It's under control... Under control... 

[Sunnie]

The Woldan wrote...

Zu Long wrote...
You mean the fact that the current Secretary of Defense admitted there isn't a good reason for this and that it will be phased out over time?

Politics.
A lot of specialized military branches accept women, the problem is they don't pass the physical acceptance test (obstacle course). For example the Marines.

There are female Rangers, the requirements are just as rigorous as any other special forces units in any branch of service.