286 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

>.> Well, OP, I appreciate that you don't "mean" it to be degrading, but it still comes across pretty arrogant.

Now, in the case of Femshep vs Sheploo in terms of strength, they've both been augmented and you can buy all kinds of bone and muscle weaves that increased your strength. I'd say they're pretty much even, considering the work Cerberus went through to put them back together.

I say not. If two things do not look equal and are not equal internally, then they are not equal.

[magicalzero]

Arppis wrote...

Testosterone actualy affects the muscle mass. So yeah.

"The greater muscle mass of males is in turn due to a greater capacity for muscular hypertrophy as a result of men's higher levels of testosterone."

You have to remember too that there are heavy weight boxers and such.

Please tell me you understand that hypertrophy (size gains) is not the only result of resistance training.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Maggot4everr wrote...

Everyone arguing with OP is freaking ridiculous. People are arguing, "Some men are weaker than women!" or, "That's sexist!" Realistically, Sheploo is freaking huge compared to FemShep. BUT, the loophole with their strength being equal is I'm sure their suit amplifies their strength or something to that effect.

Even if that's the case, Malesheps starting strength would be greater. So if you double that, it's still greater.

[Maggot4everr]

Arppis wrote...

Maggot4everr wrote...

God can a moderator come in here and lock this thread? It's become a war over which gender is better.

Chill, dude. It's not that bad yet! It's under control... Under control... 

I sense trolls on the horizon!

[Maggot4everr]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Maggot4everr wrote...

Everyone arguing with OP is freaking ridiculous. People are arguing, "Some men are weaker than women!" or, "That's sexist!" Realistically, Sheploo is freaking huge compared to FemShep. BUT, the loophole with their strength being equal is I'm sure their suit amplifies their strength or something to that effect.

Even if that's the case, Malesheps starting strength would be greater. So if you double that, it's still greater.

Just trying to be the supporter of both sides.

[Crimmsonwind]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

>.> Well, OP, I appreciate that you don't "mean" it to be degrading, but it still comes across pretty arrogant.

Now, in the case of Femshep vs Sheploo in terms of strength, they've both been augmented and you can buy all kinds of bone and muscle weaves that increased your strength. I'd say they're pretty much even, considering the work Cerberus went through to put them back together.

I say not. If two things do not look equal and are not equal internally, then they are not equal.

I say they're doing the right thing. It doesn't impact or ruin anyone else's experience. My femshep's strength and smaller frame does not ruin the experience for someone using maleshep. Plus, presenting a weaker character would create a sh*tstorm. If the media flipped out over alien sideboob, imagine how they'd throw a fit over this.

They're putting both characters on even footing, and I think that's a sensible and fair choice.

[Maggot4everr]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

>.> Well, OP, I appreciate that you don't "mean" it to be degrading, but it still comes across pretty arrogant.

Now, in the case of Femshep vs Sheploo in terms of strength, they've both been augmented and you can buy all kinds of bone and muscle weaves that increased your strength. I'd say they're pretty much even, considering the work Cerberus went through to put them back together.

I say not. If two things do not look equal and are not equal internally, then they are not equal.

I say they're doing the right thing. It doesn't impact or ruin anyone else's experience. My femshep's strength and smaller frame does not ruin the experience for someone using maleshep. Plus, presenting a weaker character would create a sh*tstorm. If the media flipped out over alien sideboob, imagine how they'd throw a fit over this.

They're putting both characters on even footing, and I think that's a sensible and fair choice.

Well said.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Reptillius wrote...

Darkelefantos1 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jreezy wrote...
What case? There's nothing that proves Sheploo is physically superior to FemShep.

You mean other than the fact that all special forces in the world are male?
Or that all world records are male?

All other thing being equal, men have a physical advantage. It's a fact of life. Deal with it.

Wait...so the record for largest breast size is held by a man? Implications unpleasant. <_<

Drake's mental image potentially leaving me scarred aside... his Sarcasm has basis.

Most special forces in the world are male for a reason.  Very few militaries are big on women being in their number. Even those that do still have issues about them being in front line or heavy combat positions.  That means that the argument of men's better capability by using these as an example as a falacy from the get go.

You know what the reason is? The training is too demanding for women.
The Combat Readynes Center confirmed this..the statstics are waaay in mens favor here. (with women being also far more prone to injury during training, especaily back injuries..youch)

I mena..c'mon. Think for a sec. Why are all the sports devided into male/female groups/tournaments. Why are all olympic record holders male? By a huge margin I might add.

Multiple times have they tried o
to pit male and female athletes agasint eachother - it never ended well. I belive that last attempt was Serena Williams (who's pumped wiht steroids so much I can harldy call her a woman anymore ) agaisnt some guy they pulled from the bottom of hte ATP list. He destroyed her.

Pepople then start talking about, how it's all just based on "average". Well folks, the difference between an average man and woman is the same (if not smaller) as the difference betwene an above-avarage man and an above-average woman.
And people who go into special forces are not gonna be couch potatos. Your above-average woman will be competing agaisnt above-average men. And the olyimpic hows us how that goes.

In the last 10 years of olympic games, find the worst 100 meter dash male runner. Compare his time with the best female runner.

That's the cold, harsh reality of the world folks.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Maggot4everr wrote...

God can a moderator come in here and lock this thread? It's become a war over which gender is better.

Eh?
Only if you consider greater pysical prowess a mesure of "overall betterness".. and that is rubbish.

[Arppis]

magicalzero wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Testosterone actualy affects the muscle mass. So yeah.

"The greater muscle mass of males is in turn due to a greater capacity for muscular hypertrophy as a result of men's higher levels of testosterone."

You have to remember too that there are heavy weight boxers and such.

Please tell me you understand that hypertrophy (size gains) is not the only result of resistance training.

Yeah, I know that.

Testosterone is one of the body's major growth hormnes and because of this men have easier time to acheve hypertrophy. And yeah, it's just easier. But as you said, men have bigger potential for strength and that is all I wanted to really point out and the fact that female shepard has almost no real muscle mass on her body.

Now I will cowardly go to bed and get some sleep for work tommorrow. Night. :3

Modifié par Arppis, 16 août 2011 - 09:50 .

[Crimmsonwind]

You're right, Lotion. By real world statistics and everything, yes. Men are physically more adept than women int he real world. Even by just a little bit. But there's still a difference. When I was still training, in my black-belt class I was the best female fighter. I still couldn't stand up quite as well against the best male fighters. It's an unfortunate truth of nature.

But you're off topic. We're talking about the confines of a game, not the real world. While ME is based on the real world history and physics, it is still a game, and for the sake of saving them time and money, there's no reason invest in a whole second set of animations just to show Femshep being a little weaker.

There isn't supposed to be serious difference between femshep's and sheploo's characters. They are, first and foremost, kick*ss soldiers fighting for their cause.

Modifié par Crimmsonwind, 16 août 2011 - 09:48 .

[Zu Long]

The Woldan wrote...

Zu Long wrote...
You mean the fact that the current Secretary of Defense admitted there isn't a good reason for this and that it will be phased out over time?

Politics.
A lot of specialized military branches accept women, the problem is they don't pass the physical acceptance test (obstacle course). For example the Marines.

Actually they CAN pass the Marine physical acceptance test, the problem is that current US military policy forbids women in what it calls "frontline combat positions" due to gender discrimantion. Again, as women not in "frontline combat positions" have encountered combat situations due to the chaos of war and performed well, these policies are coming under review and being shown as mostly baseless.

It's a fact that women in general aren't as strong physically, but at a certain point the question stops being "how strong are you?", and becomes instead "are you strong enough to get the job done?" We are increasingly discovering that our assumptions about women in the later category to be incorrect, and that in my mind is what this topic is about.

Whether or not male Shepard is actually stronger is immaterial (though he almost certainly is). The premise put forth is that a female Shepard simply wouldn't be capable of doing what Shepard does in game.That premise is simply groundless, especially given that this about a Special Forces Operative we KNOW has been augmented.

[magicalzero]

Nobody has argued that men do not have a higher max level of physical strength. However, for a soldier like Shepard this difference would be completely irrelevant. An Olympic level athlete spends the majority of his waking (and sleeping as well, through proper rest) hours training or preparing in some way for his choice of sport. To reach that level requires immense dedication, and yes, on this level the best male will outperform the best female.

That is what results in world records, etc.

But if you ever had any experience with the military, you'd realize that this is not how you train in that environment. You train for a level of physical fitness achievable by both males and females, and gains beyond that are superfluous. At this point you people would be better off arguing that female Shepard should do less damage because, obviously, women are not as aggressive as males - and so on and so forth. (in a game with faster than light travel and various humanoid alien species)

Modifié par magicalzero, 16 août 2011 - 09:51 .

[morrie23]

No I don't think BioWare should show differences in the physical-adeptness between male and female Shepard. Partly because it is a waste of finite development resources, but mainly because the physicality of FemShep is part of her appeal and removing it would be detrimental to her as a character IMHO.

Modifié par morrie23, 16 août 2011 - 09:53 .

[naddaya]

They have synthetic muscles, a reinforced skull and tons of overly complex enhancements. I doubt gender is an issue anymore.

[Arppis]

magicalzero wrote...

Nobody has argued that men do not have a higher max level of physical strength. However, for a soldier like Shepard this difference would be completely irrelevant. An Olympic level athlete spends the majority of his waking (and sleeping as well, through proper rest) hours training or preparing in some way for his choice of sport. To reach that level requires immense dedication, and yes, on this level the best male will outperform the best female. This results in world records, etc.

But if you ever had any experience with the military, you'd realize that this is not how you train in that environment. You train for level of physical fitness achievable by both males and females, and gains beyond that are superfluous. At this point you people would be better of arguing that female Shepard should do less damage because, obviously, women are not as aggressive as males - and so on and so forth. (in a game with faster than light travel and various humanoid alien species)

Yeah, in army it's stamina > strength, basicaly. You don't need physical strength as much as you did in the ancient warfare. Was in the army too! Gah, but off to bed!

[Jack Package]

Sunnie22 wrote...

[...]
The truth of the matter is
that it's a game, on a tight schedule, and creating separate content to
divide male/female protagonists by something as trivial as
strength/pound of mass would cost a lot more in both time and money,
only to have it nulled out by the introduction of cybernetic devices and
enhancements anyway.
[...]

this,

Crimmsonwind wrote...

[...]
But you're off topic. We're talking about the confines of a game, not the real world. While ME is based on the real world history and physics, it is still a game, and for the sake of saving them time and money, there's no reason invest in a whole second set of animations just to show Femshep being a little weaker.
[...]

and this.

I do not get why there is such a discussion anyway. When you have problems with FemShep being equally strong ingame then just play DudeShep.  Easy as that.

[Giant ambush beetle]

But if you ever had any experience with the military, you'd realize that this is not how you train in that environment. You train for level of physical fitness achievable by both males and females, and gains beyond that are superfluous.

There are still major physical problems with female soldiers in combat, let me make a practical example: a soldier gets shot and injured and can't move, he needs help to get out of the immediate danger zone as quickly as possible. He weighs 200 lbs + 60 lbs of combat gear. A male trained squad mate can pick him up, shoulder him and carry him out of the danger zone ( 50 meters). Now show me a female soldier who can do the same. If there is an imbalance of power and / or skill in a front line squad things get screwed up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an anti-feminist ore anything like that, just telling facts.

Modifié par The Woldan , 16 août 2011 - 10:01 .

[Crimmsonwind]

The Woldan wrote...

But if you ever had any experience with the military, you'd realize that this is not how you train in that environment. You train for level of physical fitness achievable by both males and females, and gains beyond that are superfluous.

There are still major physical problems with female soldiers in combat, let me make a practical example: a soldier gets shot and injured and can't move, he needs help to get out of the immediate danger zone as quickly as possible. He weighs 200 lbs + 60 lbs of combat gear. A male trained squad mate can pick him up, shoulder him and carry him out of the danger zone ( 50 meters). Now show me a female soldier who can do the same. If there is a imbalance of power and / or skill in a front line squad things get screwed up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an anti-feminist ore anything like that, just telling facts.

With the right kind of carry and torque, that's easy. I couldn't tell you how to do it, seeing as I've never tried or looked into it, but I've seen people do it. There was a female firefighter in my area who could do it.

EDIT: Plus adrenaline would be a big help.

Modifié par Crimmsonwind, 16 août 2011 - 10:03 .

[Giant ambush beetle]

I've never seen people do it, but I'm always willing to learn.

[jlb524]

Mash Mashington wrote...

I wonder where's Busomjack right now

Admiring his own manly form in the mirror.

Jack Package wrote...

I do not get why there is such a discussion anyway. When you have problems with FemShep being equally
strong ingame then just play DudeShep. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie] Easy as that.

But but....I got nothing.

Modifié par jlb524, 16 août 2011 - 10:04 .

[ChurchOfZod]

OP +1000. It's not sexist to recognize differences between genders.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Zu Long wrote...
Actually they CAN pass the Marine physical acceptance test, the problem is that current US military policy forbids women in what it calls "frontline combat positions" due to gender discrimantion. Again, as women not in "frontline combat positions" have encountered combat situations due to the chaos of war and performed well, these policies are coming under review and being shown as mostly baseless.

Average marine trials? Yes they can pass them. Those are not nearly as demanding as Special Forces.

Also, there are other reasons why woman are generally kept out of combat. Mostly practical and psychological.

[Homey C-Dawg]

Gender difference topics can sure get people riled. I've never really understood why. Good old mother nature created the differences between people, we shouldn't get upset with each other for noticing them.

I sort of agree with OP on the concept, but not on adding gameplay changes.

The simple truth that a lot of people seem to want to ignore is that, as many have pointed out, mansheps arms, torso, etc. are much bigger than femsheps. Generally speaking, that equals more physical strength. There is the argument that they are the same due to the cybernetics, but I don't think that's the case, as "improving" Shepard was something the Lazerus project was trying to avoid.

However, while I think manshep probably would be physically stronger than femshep, I don't think it should make a difference in gameplay. I never really use the "it's just a video game" argument (because it's cheap and thoughtless), but this time I gotta say from a gameplay point of view it's not something I think needs to be addressed. It's just not a big enough deal considering the space armor and 500lbs of guns they both strap to their backs regardless.

If they did want to make a gameplay difference, it would probably have to be something small and superficial, like slightly stronger melee for manshep and slightly faster storm speed for femshep (just as an example). But I really don't think it's necessary.