286 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
 Fact is fact. People should acccept it and move on with their lives.

In the same vein, they're not going to downgrade a video game character because such an argument is presented.

Perhaps it is you that needs to "move on."

I'm not saying they should. Too late for it anyway.

If *I* were makign a game, I might make that destinction. But I like ot argue a point, so there

[Lotion Soronarr]

Zu Long wrote...

You bring up the combat readiness center a lot. I'm not sure I'm going to take the word of a non-military, third party organization dedicated to the idea that women shouldn't be in combat roles. They don't seem like a good source of unbiased info.

Seem like you got a bias towards the CRC.

Plenty of material on the net. If you dont' trust CRC you'll find more of it.

[Zu Long]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

You bring up the combat readiness center a lot. I'm not sure I'm going to take the word of a non-military, third party organization dedicated to the idea that women shouldn't be in combat roles. They don't seem like a good source of unbiased info.

Seem like you got a bias towards the CRC.

Plenty of material on the net. If you dont' trust CRC you'll find more of it.

The net has plenty on both sides, such as the opinion of the Secretary of Defense on the matter, which I believe I already pointed out. It's not bias to call the CRC what it is: a third party lobbying organization dedicated to a specific goal.

As I said earlier though ultimately this topic's question comes down not to who is stronger, but rather what evidence do we have that Femshep ISN'T strong enough to accomplish what they depict. As far as I can tell, the only argument put forth so far on that score is, basically, "Come on! A girl couldn't do that !" Which doesn't strike me as particularly compelling.

[Whereto]

This will get locked but before it does I want my input. Factually men are generally physically more able than women, clear evidence of this is in weight lifting and running, women and men doing the same training will nearly always end up with men coming out on top. The problem with this is one, the training for men and women is different so it's incomparable and two, this is very different for shepard. In mass effect one male shep would of in most probability been strong and faster than fem shep(not confirmed but it could be hypothesized), in the case of me2 we don't know the leave of augmentation Shepard went through, if it is high enough for the augments to surpass male sheps strength it would mean that the strength increase men get would be irrelevant. Hence making fem shep as strong and fast as male shep. In short, men are more or less built to be more physically "active" mainly as a result of hormonal and structural differences, but in the case of mass effect it is almost pointless modeling it due to the augmentations and exosuit suit Shepard wears.

I would also like to note: to anyone that thinks men and women are equal physically should look at it biologically wise. Structural and hormonal differences cause men as a general rule to be physically better in strength etc, this does not mean women do not have some physically abilities over men, flexibility is a key feature many women can exibt with ease, but many men struggle. For me personally, I have to stretch everyday to keep flexible, many girls I know don't stretch nearly as much as me and are far more flexible (obviously you can not conclude women flexibility as a given from my perosnal experience but from far more samples it becomes slightly more obvious)

[Giant ambush beetle]

Zu Long wrote...

 As far as I can tell, the only argument put forth so far on that score is, basically, "Come on! A girl couldn't do that !" Which doesn't strike me as particularly compelling.

No. A girl could very well do all the things Fem Shep did in ME2, BUT, - and thats my point- twig armed Fem Shep lacks the physique to be believable when doing physical demanding tasks. 
I loved my Fem Shep playthrough, and a better more believable body model would be sweet. . 

[Darkelefantos1]

I believe the point OP was trying to make was that FemShep shouldn't fight like MaleShep. MaleShep fighting like a mindless brute, trying to punch out people with the first shot is okay. FemShep doing the same, instead of using quickness and combination, looks strange in comparison.
But since this is a game, they should feel equal, changing it would only take time and money anyway. Not to forget the name-calling :"All devs are sexist!".

Modifié par Darkelefantos1, 17 août 2011 - 10:17 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Zu Long wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

You bring up the combat readiness center a lot. I'm not sure I'm going to take the word of a non-military, third party organization dedicated to the idea that women shouldn't be in combat roles. They don't seem like a good source of unbiased info.

Seem like you got a bias towards the CRC.

Plenty of material on the net. If you dont' trust CRC you'll find more of it.

The net has plenty on both sides, such as the opinion of the Secretary of Defense on the matter, which I believe I already pointed out. It's not bias to call the CRC what it is: a third party lobbying organization dedicated to a specific goal.

And there aren't other third parties lobbying the opposite?
Lord know there aren't special interest groups in both side of the fence...and in this climate of Plitical Correctness Gone Mad....well...

As I said earlier though ultimately this topic's question comes down not to who is stronger, but rather what evidence do we have that Femshep ISN'T strong enough to accomplish what they depict. As far as I can tell, the only argument put forth so far on that score is, basically, "Come on! A girl couldn't do that !" Which doesn't strike me as particularly compelling.

She doesn't look like she could, but again, that doesn't bother me as I never play female commandos. To me, it falls into the same category as pink unicorns.

[Zu Long]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As I said earlier though ultimately this topic's question comes down not to who is stronger, but rather what evidence do we have that Femshep ISN'T strong enough to accomplish what they depict. As far as I can tell, the only argument put forth so far on that score is, basically, "Come on! A girl couldn't do that !" Which doesn't strike me as particularly compelling.

She doesn't look like she could, but again, that doesn't bother me as I never play female commandos. To me, it falls into the same category as pink unicorns.

Meaning...what, exactly?

[RPGamer13]

When I was in the second half of my military training, I went to basic training where there were no female trainees, there were some females that performed better than me and a lot of other males.

So, you can't tell me it's not possible for a female to perform on the same level or outperform men. They may have to work harder, but it's still possible.


Again, this is why thy should have given and should give FemShep more musculature to more accurately depict how strong she is. Look at Makoto from Street Fighter IV, she's a brute force character and she's got the muscles in her arms to prove it.

Just because I say they should give her muscles doesn't mean I think they shpuld give her bodbuilder size arms, there's a such thing as lean muscle that would help make FemShep look the part.

[Lotion Soronarr]

RPGamer13 wrote...

When I was in the second half of my military training, I went to basic training where there were no female trainees, there were some females that performed better than me and a lot of other males.

So, you can't tell me it's not possible for a female to perform on the same level or outperform men. They may have to work harder, but it's still possible.

And I take it you were regular military?

That hardly impresses me, given that I know plenty of couch potatos in the military (which makes you wonder on their standards, but I digress).

Shep is supposed to be a top commando.
I'll buy your argument when I see women in Delta Force.

[LGTX]

You ever read up on the cybernetic augmentations that Shep has tucked inside of him/her? And the ones you can further reinforce her/him with? In a future universe where living above a century is small talk, how do you know the physical properties and differences of opposite genders are the same? Also, are you new to videogames?

[Zu Long]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

RPGamer13 wrote...

When I was in the second half of my military training, I went to basic training where there were no female trainees, there were some females that performed better than me and a lot of other males.

So, you can't tell me it's not possible for a female to perform on the same level or outperform men. They may have to work harder, but it's still possible.

And I take it you were regular military?

That hardly impresses me, given that I know plenty of couch potatos in the military (which makes you wonder on their standards, but I digress).

Shep is supposed to be a top commando.
I'll buy your argument when I see women in Delta Force.

Only a matter of time. At the beginning of the 20th Century women couldn't even vote, and people argued that they didn't have the intellectual capacity to make good voting choices. Men, it was argued, were clearly superior in terms of reasoning powers.

They were wrong then, and I think history will show ME to be correct when it comes to women in being Specialist Operatives 170 years from now.

[RPGamer13]

That's not even a fair argument because they aren't allowing women to even try to get into such a group. And then, you'd most likely still discredit that with "oh, those women are only there because they had to put some women now that they're allowed."

I have also seen female Marines with bigger arms than some of the males they were with. And Shepard is supposed to be the equivalent of a Marine, well she certainly doesn't look the part.

[CaptainZaysh]

The Brits studied this issue a few years ago, when reviewing the ban on women being allowed into close combat roles (which was maintained). They found that:
- only 1% of female soldiers (0.01% of females recruits) could achieve the required fitness standard
- female soldiers are generally less aggressive than male ones

Obviously the Systems Alliance military is more inclusive than the British Army (they let a disabled man apply to become a combat pilot), but I think these findings indicate that Ash and Femshep are rarities - they're both the one in a hundred who were physiologically and psychologically capable of performing in a close combat role. I guess rather than screen out the 1% like the Brits do, the SA probably actively encourages them in. She may have been steered into special forces rather than other more feminine military careers simply because she was physically capable of doing it.

As to the feats of strength in-game, I think they're fine. Give your Femshep the combat exoskeleton armour mod, and that punch to Saren's face on Virmire is suddenly eye-watering. And of course in ME2 Femshep's cybernetic endoskeleton and artificial muscle bundles transform her into something much more fearsome and physically powerful than any other human (remember the Claymore shotgun would break a normal human's arm).

I see some scenes in ME2 as her coming to terms with her new physical strength (kicking a varren out of midair, going toe-to-toe with a yahg) in preparation for the omni-blade wielding close-quarters nightmare she's destined to become in ME3.

[CaptainZaysh]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

I would like to see that study if you can dig it up somhow.

Got the summary.  You can probably find the detailed report online as well (I haven't read it myself):
http://www.mod.uk/NR..._af_summary.pdf

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

I assume that "Close Combat Roles" they are talking about is already dipping into SpecOps resposibility as I fairly doubt that only 1% of females in the regular army trying to get into that position pass the physical requirements, otherwise if the difference in physical aptitude is that big, either those that teached me biology and by that extent some basic anatomy were horribly wrong in their lectures, or that British study had ridicously high standards and would then like to know how many males do pass the tests!

No, they define a close combat role as any one where the soldier is "required deliberately to close with and kill the enemy face-to-face".  They're talking about the regular infantry.

Here's the bit about the physical disparity:

"Differences between women and men in their capacity to develop muscle strength and aerobic fitness are such that only approximately 1% of women can equal the performance of the average man. In lifting, carrying and similar tasks performed routinely by the British Army, this means that, on average, women have a lower work capacity than men and, when exposed to the same physical workload as men, have to work 50-80% harder to achieve the same results. This puts them at greater risk of injury. In load marching, another fundamental military task, and in all other simulated combat tasks, women were found to perform worse than men, and the greater the load, the greater the discrepancy. The study concluded that about 0.1% of female applicants and 1 % of trained female soldiers would reach the required standards to meet the demands of these roles."

In the British Army the tasks will basically have been fast hill running carrying 35lb backpacks for distances of 3-20 miles.  I've done this and thinking about it, I think the weight requirement would be the bit that's hardest for a woman to overcome.  It might be that in a sci-fi military there's no longer a need for infantry soldiers to patrol long distances or carry much weight into battle, so this could well be an antiquated entry standard by Shepard's time.

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...
As for the aggressiveness, females as a whole are less aggressive in nature indeed, however they are on the other hand more emotionally stable than males in general. So the same time some aggression can make you live through some battles, the lack of control of such aggressiveness can just as easily let you rush into death on another day. But again, straddlers do exist in both camps and I encountered quite a few women that could put any man to shame regarding aggressiveness.

Yeah, you have to look at individuals of course (I'd rather Kara Thrace was flying on my wing than Lee Adama).  But in general high levels of aggression are what win fights in close combat.  All else being equal, the side more willing to get stuck in with bayonets is going to be the side left standing.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Zu Long wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

RPGamer13 wrote...

When I was in the second half of my military training, I went to basic training where there were no female trainees, there were some females that performed better than me and a lot of other males.

So, you can't tell me it's not possible for a female to perform on the same level or outperform men. They may have to work harder, but it's still possible.

And I take it you were regular military?

That hardly impresses me, given that I know plenty of couch potatos in the military (which makes you wonder on their standards, but I digress).

Shep is supposed to be a top commando.
I'll buy your argument when I see women in Delta Force.

Only a matter of time. At the beginning of the 20th Century women couldn't even vote, and people argued that they didn't have the intellectual capacity to make good voting choices. Men, it was argued, were clearly superior in terms of reasoning powers.

They were wrong then, and I think history will show ME to be correct when it comes to women in being Specialist Operatives 170 years from now.

Nah. It's not a matter of rights, it's a matter of ability.

No woman could outrun Ussain Bolt a thousand years before, and no woman will be able to either.
Any woman wanting to join the Spec Ops will be up against participants that are just as motivated and physicly superior. Man SpecOps vs. Female SpecOps is like man athletes vs. female athletes. It's not a fair contests to begin with (for a given definition of fair)

But no..some people think that it's insulting to say you can't do something. It's just how life goes. We are ALL limited by our own nature and bodies. Sucks, but there's nothing you can do about itanyway.

[CaptainZaysh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No woman could outrun Ussain Bolt a thousand years before, and no woman will be able to either.
Any woman wanting to join the Spec Ops will be up against participants that are just as motivated and physicly superior. Man SpecOps vs. Female SpecOps is like man athletes vs. female athletes. It's not a fair contests to begin with (for a given definition of fair)

Not sure I agree with that, Lotion.  Military recruits compete against a set of objective standards, not each other.  Marion Jones might not have been able to outrun Ussain Bolt, but she could sure as hell outrun me, and I was in the airborne.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 17 août 2011 - 12:30 .

[Vanaer]

Sure, but then let's limit the diplomatic capabilities and social intelligence of Sheploo. After all, we all know that's where boys are worse off than girls. Alpha and Gamma studies are the studies where the females prevail. Already 60% of the students on my faculty (Gamma - Economy) are female; they usually get the better grades and seem to be more discplined in their studies.

Modifié par Vanaer, 17 août 2011 - 12:33 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

RPGamer13 wrote...

That's not even a fair argument because they aren't allowing women to even try to get into such a group. And then, you'd most likely still discredit that with "oh, those women are only there because they had to put some women now that they're allowed."

I have also seen female Marines with bigger arms than some of the males they were with. And Shepard is supposed to be the equivalent of a Marine, well she certainly doesn't look the part.

I've seen plenty of strong women. Heck, half the women I know are in better shape then me. But then again, my job involves sitting in the office for half a day, and despite my good genes ( I had bodybuilders telling me they wished they had my physique), wihout excercise it's wasted potential.

The point is, those women won't be competing agaisnt me. They would be competing agaisnt a version of me that did make most of it. And men far superior to me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No woman could outrun Ussain Bolt a thousand years before, and no woman will be able to either.
Any woman wanting to join the Spec Ops will be up against participants that are just as motivated and physicly superior. Man SpecOps vs. Female SpecOps is like man athletes vs. female athletes. It's not a fair contests to begin with (for a given definition of fair)

Not sure I agree with that, Lotion.  Military recruits compete against a set of objective standards, not each other.  Marion Jones might not have been able to outrun Ussain Bolt, but she could sure as hell outrun me, and I was in the airborne.

And when 100 recruits pass the standard, and you're only taking 10?
Whom will you take? The point is that you take the best.

[Comsky159]

To be safe with all groups they should remain completely gender neutral. But I must admit I do sense an air of hypocrisy when the same people who complain about FemShep not always having a different (cross legged) sitting animation complain about having a different style of combat. Both are an acknowledgement of realistic femininity, nothing more or less.

But we should keep in perspective that this is ultimately a fantasy game and I don't see why people should be any less bad-ass when playing a woman than a man.

[atheelogos]

Brand New wrote...

It has nothing to do with "degrading women etc" -physcially bigger and thefore superiror.

Maybe you should have worded the above differently.... But I see where your coming from and I don't agree. Femshep has been genetically enhanced and for all we know the suits they wear give the user added strength. So I think most of the scenes are okay.

The ones I can't stand however is when Shepard overpowers someone in a suite. I mean come on how do you punch and knockout someone who has a helmet on with your bare fist? Those helmets btw can stop mass accelerated rounds  makes no sense.