256 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

nerdage wrote...

Construcion worker metaphor works quite nicely, actually. If the appropriate means of protection is a hard hat, then a worker without one is a fatality waiting to happen, and if the appropriate protection for a rogue is light armour (as is more often than not the case with NPCs), why won't my rogues wear it?

I'm getting around to the other replys. Be patient. 

In the mean time, I'll add another reply.

Following that metaphor, you were still able to recognize the construction worker based on his/her outfit, which is the central issue here. There are an infinite number of visual ways for a character to express himself. By adding armor customization, this places a large constraint on that expression.

If Isabela must be in armor, then make it unique armor. Armor which anyone can change any time they want does not add to a character's identity, as established by the game.

Modifié par Il Divo, 17 août 2011 - 12:29 .

[Zanallen]

nerdage wrote...
Construcion worker metaphor works quite nicely, actually. If the appropriate means of protection is a hard hat, then a worker without one is a fatality waiting to happen, and if the appropriate protection for a rogue is light armour (as is more often than not the case with NPCs), why won't my rogues wear it?

I'm getting around to the other replys. Be patient. 

I have to say though, rogue is their class and not their profession. The NPC rogues are all dressed like lightly armored soldiers. And in fact, most are soldiers or mercenaries or the like. Sebastian is a rogue, but he is also a prince. Varric is a rogue, but his profession is merchant. Isabela is a rogue, but she is a sailor and a pirate.

[Nerdage]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Suppose they are both wearing the same helmets that obscure their faces and hair. You know, the kind that areeverywhere in Dragon Age.

Isabela isn't supposed to look like a generic rogue, because she's not a generic rogue. She's a pirate, a swashbuckler, and a duelist, and her outfit helps show that. Quickness and speed, some armor for defensive fighting, just like she says. Isabela is supposed to look like Isabela. That's why I want her to look recognizable.

I'd say that if you were given the freedom to equip them however you want and you chose to give them amour with identical models, that's your fault.

But there's the helmet toggle there now if you're willing to hand wave their not visibly wearing a helmet, and *only* allowing them to wear outfits that don't even resemble amour isn't the same, that's like not even giving me the option to see the helmet I equip in the first place, it's a hand wave made for me and not one I agree with in this case.

And I never said she needs to look like every other rogue, or that she shouldn't look unique, but she could at least follow conventions set by other fighters, namely: armour. Cailan looked unique; Loghain looked unique; Duncan looked unique, they were still all wearing armour. There's still plenty of room for characterization and uniqueness within 'realistic' parameters.

[leggywillow]

Zanallen wrote...

nerdage wrote...
Construcion worker metaphor works quite nicely, actually. If the appropriate means of protection is a hard hat, then a worker without one is a fatality waiting to happen, and if the appropriate protection for a rogue is light armour (as is more often than not the case with NPCs), why won't my rogues wear it?

I have to say though, rogue is their class and not their profession. The NPC rogues are all dressed like lightly armored soldiers. And in fact, most are soldiers or mercenaries or the like. Sebastian is a rogue, but he is also a prince. Varric is a rogue, but his profession is merchant. Isabela is a rogue, but she is a sailor and a pirate.

This.  Nerdage missed the point of my metaphor.  Rogue is not a specific profession with a specific dress code.  Why do you want Isabela, Varric, and Sebastian to dress like mercenaries when they are not mercenaries?  They have no reason to wear the kind of leather armor we see in Origins or on some of the NPCs.

Modifié par leggywillow, 17 août 2011 - 12:39 .

[Il Divo]

nerdage wrote...


And I never said she needs to look like every other rogue, or that she shouldn't look unique, but she could at least follow conventions set by other fighters, namely: armour. Cailan looked unique; Loghain looked unique; Duncan looked unique, they were still all wearing armour. There's still plenty of room for characterization and uniqueness within 'realistic' parameters.

What was unique about Loghain, aside from his face? 

[Nerdage]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Hmmm...do you prefer they look similar based on "all rogues should dress about the same" or based on "this is what's practical in battle"?  In Origins the female rogue armor with the low-cut tops look just as impractical to me.

The latter I suppose, but it's not a question of real world practicality, rather in game consistency. Also, I'm not sure I'd use the word "similar", I just want them to be loosely consistent.

Il Divo wrote...
What was unique about Loghain, aside from his face? 

... His armour?

leggywillow wrote...

This.  Nerdage missed the point of my metaphor.  Rogue is not a specific profession with a specific dress code.  Why do you want Isabela, Varric, and Sebastian to dress like mercenaries when they are not mercenaries?  They have no reason to wear the kind of leather armor we see in Origins or on some of the NPCs.

But I'm not using them as ship captains or merchants, when they're following me around they basically are mercenaries. If they're allowed to dress in their day-to-day clothes then why not go one step further and unequip their weapons? Why would a merchant even need a crossbow day-to-day? What's being a prince got to do with wielding a bow?

Why do they arm themselves for combat but not dress for combat?

(Though I don't actually have a problem with Sebastian's armour, and I'm not sure Varric's a merchant..)

Modifié par nerdage, 17 août 2011 - 12:53 .

[willholt]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Wusword77 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
No, I'm complaining that I can't make her wear a jacket.  I found the tattoos unsightly, and since I couldn't modify her model I had to modify her texture.

But what if she doesn't want to wear armor?  Why are all companions supposed to be nothing but puppets for the player, when the player is only supposed to be a single character?

Lol? Of course they're puppets of the player, they're video game characters, we're people. We have authority over them. They do not share equality, we are their god. Who cares what she wants and doesn't want, the player trumps all, and if the player wants some god damn armour on that clothless body, the player should damn well get it.

Absolutely!

The day an in game character can do AI to the same level as the player is the day I say, "Oki Doki, wear what you like!"

As long as I have to tell them what tactics to use, where to move to, move them out of harm's way cause they are standing there like lemons while the enemy lays into them... and they insist on wearing a 70's disco shirt while fighting templers, then I want to control their costumes

Either total control or no control and they do their own thing (like the Witcher's companions when they accompany him on quests).

Either the game is a party-based RPG, or it's a single character RPG with some NPC's along for the ride.

[hoorayforicecream]

nerdage wrote...

I'd say that if you were given the freedom to equip them however you want and you chose to give them amour with identical models, that's your fault.

But there's the helmet toggle there now if you're willing to hand wave their not visibly wearing a helmet, and *only* allowing them to wear outfits that don't even resemble amour isn't the same, that's like not even giving me the option to see the helmet I equip in the first place, it's a hand wave made for me and not one I agree with in this case.

And I never said she needs to look like every other rogue, or that she shouldn't look unique, but she could at least follow conventions set by other fighters, namely: armour. Cailan looked unique; Loghain looked unique; Duncan looked unique, they were still all wearing armour. There's still plenty of room for characterization and uniqueness within 'realistic' parameters.

You haven't brought up realism in any post until now. Why didn't you say that was what you wanted in the first place? We've just been talking about how iconic and unique looks are a benefit to establishing character and ambient storytelling, while you've been saying that since they look different than NPC examples of similar classes, it's weird for you.

I just want my characters to look the way they say they look. If I dress Varric in the same armor as Carta Thug #35, then it takes away from his uniqueness as a character, and removes the ambient storytelling element of his visuals. I've said from the beginning that I am not against alternate outfits (or even realistic outfits, such as they are in a world where weapons can be perpetually on fire, demons can appear from thin air, and dragons the size of houses can fly) for the companions. However, I am against generic outfits for the followers (like there were in DAO), because I feel it takes away from that ambient storytelling element. I didn't like how my dwarf warrior Warden was completely indistinguishable from Oghren once suited up. I didn't like how my female human rogue Warden was indistinguishable from Leliana from behind.

I don't have these issues in DA2, because the followers in DA2 are clearly recognizable.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 17 août 2011 - 12:57 .

[ipgd]

bEVEsthda wrote...

We don't need you to tell us that our opinions are only our opinions. We don't need you to tell us that the developers may have different ideas than what we would like. These things you have this incessant need to drop all the time have no value.

Sylvius is special. I think he seriously might need a reminder from time to time.

But really, then don't wheel them out like they are definitive facts universally acknowledged by the entire playerbase, that you know how its implementation affects sales, or that Bioware has an obligation to appease consumers at the expense of their own design direction. You use these things as arguments to try to advocate for your position, but they're ultimately irrelevant because the entire thing is minor enough that Bioware can get away with ignoring them if that is what they want to do. There are other arguments for equipable companion armor that do not have to do with whether more or less people agree with you or that Bioware would make more or less money for implementing it, and those are the arguments that are going to be relevant in challenging a deliberate design decision they have made multiple times.

I'd say that if you were given the freedom to equip them however you want and you chose to give them amour with identical models, that's your fault.

It's not a matter of sometimes having the same armor model in the party. It means that the characters cannot be designed with any visual characterization below the neck. It means that Morrigan, Wynne and Leliana all have the same exact breast size and body type. Jack is a good example of a character whose unique body model is extremely integral to her characterization and actually has dialogue relevant to it.

Modifié par ipgd, 17 août 2011 - 01:04 .

[Zanallen]

willholt wrote...

Absolutely!

The day an in game character can do AI to the same level as the player is the day I say, "Oki Doki, wear what you like!"

As long as I have to tell them what tactics to use, where to move to, move them out of harm's way cause they are standing there like lemons while the enemy lays into them... and they insist on wearing a 70's disco shirt while fighting templers, then I want to control their costumes

Either total control or no control and they do their own thing (like the Witcher's companions when they accompany him on quests).
Either the game is a party-based RPG, or it's a single character RPG with some NPC's along for the ride.

And where does your total control end? Should we have IWD again and have the entire party be created by the player? Should you be able to decide their class, race, gender and looks? Are they your characters or are they their own? Should they even have their own personalities or should you control everything they say as well?

Modifié par Zanallen, 17 août 2011 - 01:01 .

[Il Divo]

nerdage wrote...

]... His armour?

It's been a while, but wasn't it just basic steel?

[Il Divo]

ipgd wrote...


It's not a matter of sometimes having the same armor model in the party. It means that the characters cannot be designed with any visual characterization below the neck. It means that Morrigan, Wynne and Leliana all have the same exact breast size and body type. Jack is a good example of a character whose unique body model is extremely integral to her characterization and actually has dialogue relevant to it.

And this becomes problematic when you consider that some Bioware games do start characters off in unique outfits (Origins, Mass Effect, and KotOR), but the stats are so weak that the player is forced to choose between combat effectiveness and character identity.

[hoorayforicecream]

Il Divo wrote...

nerdage wrote...

]... His armour?

It's been a while, but wasn't it just basic steel?

Cailan and Loghain had differently tinted and slightly differently textured armor. However, the models were the same as all of the massive armors in DAO.

[Zanallen]

Il Divo wrote...

nerdage wrote...

]... His armour?

It's been a while, but wasn't it just basic steel?

It has an unique name, but it looks just like several other pieces of massive plate.

[Il Divo]

Appreciated, all around. I figured Cailan's was unique because it at least looked to be gold-plated, or something similar, which helps to separate it. Loghain's was a bit more difficult to recall.

[Ianamus]

I like the unique look of the characters, but I did find it annoying when my Hawke that romanced Merrill caused her to put on that white outfit. The outfit itself was ok, but the scarf her old outfit had hid the fact that her neck was abnormally long and thin, and it ended up bugging me for the rest of the game.

I guess that's a problem with her model though, not her outfit.

I'd like to keep the personalised looks, but I want more customisation as well. Maybe a very large selection of armor upgrades that all have visual changes as well as different stats? Then we would get more choice and customisation, but they would retain a unique look.

[Ianamus]

Modifié par EJ107, 17 août 2011 - 01:16 .

[hoorayforicecream]

EJ107 wrote...

I like the unique look of the characters, but I did find it annoying when my Hawke that romanced Merrill caused her to put on that white outfit. The outfit itself was ok, but the scarf her old outfit had hid the fact that her neck was abnormally long and thin, and it ended up bugging me for the rest of the game.
 

Well then, have I got a mod for you!

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 17 août 2011 - 01:18 .

[TEWR]

Wouldn't it be possible for the developers to create various sets of companion specific armor that caters to their specific figures?

[Gespenst]

willholt wrote...

...
As an aside... I get really annoyed at what amounts to people being selfish when it comes to what they wish to see in DA3.
...

I may not agree with everything you've said but at least you're not a hypocrite.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Who is this guy supposed to be?

But that's Alistair. He's got Alistair's haricut (sort of) and is wearing Alistair's default armour (more or less).

Maybe I only recognise it because I kept him in it for so long - I liked how he looked in that. To me that was Alistair's armour, just like Morigan's robe was ...Morigan's. I eventually had to switch them out because of the stats but I got a good way into the game before that happened.

[TEWR]

EJ107 wrote...

I like the unique look of the characters, but I did find it annoying when my Hawke that romanced Merrill caused her to put on that white outfit. The outfit itself was ok, but the scarf her old outfit had hid the fact that her neck was abnormally long and thin, and it ended up bugging me for the rest of the game.

I guess that's a problem with her model though, not her outfit.

I'd like to keep the personalised looks, but I want more customisation as well. Maybe a very large selection of armor upgrades that all have visual changes as well as different stats? Then we would get more choice and customisation, but they would retain a unique look.

I don't understand why people have a problem with long necks. 

I have a long neck. I know other people that have a long neck. There's nothing wrong with having a long neck, and I don't even see her neck as thin. It seems like a normal sized (in terms of width) neck, and her head seems entirely proportional to her neck


Now.... how many times did I say neck? Eight times it seems.

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wouldn't it be possible for the developers to create various sets of companion specific armor that caters to their specific figures?

Possibly. A handful at least. I could imagine them making maybe five sets or so that are unique to the companion and with various stats. Maybe have them all level with the companion so they are all viable, but each one offers a different set of benefits for different situations.

[Zanallen]

Gespenst wrote...

But that's Alistair. He's got Alistair's haricut (sort of) and is wearing Alistair's default armour (more or less).

Maybe I only recognise it because I kept him in it for so long - I liked how he looked in that. To me that was Alistair's armour, just like Morigan's robe was ...Morigan's. I eventually had to switch them out because of the stats but I got a good way into the game before that happened.

My Cousland warrior was wearing that exact same armor model at the beginning of the game. And many, many other NPCs can be seen in it as well. Plus, that hair style is a generic choice from the character generator. It could be Alistair, but it could also be a Cousland or it could be one of many generic NPCs.

[Masako52]

As a cosplayer, I love that the characters have distinct costumes. And it helps that I pretty much love every costume design of the Companions. They're very expressive about the character, and cool looking to boot. Morrigan had an outfit in DAO, and it helps lend to the image of her.

However, I do wish we could have elements of customization. On a gameplay level, it's a shame to find awesome armor lying around and only have yourself to try it on - and two thirds of it you can't use due to character class. Furthermore, it always did seem unrealistic that the characters would wear the same exact thing for ten years. I know this is medieval times but c'mon.

Maybe if Bioware still gave us the option to have the default clothes, but make them "level up along with character" or something, so you can change them if you want but they never get super outdated. Or, maybe that's what the characters always wear in their homes, like Hawke wears his/her fancy noble threads. Still give us the option to play dress up, but keep that distinctive costume.

[Nerdage]

hoorayforicecream wrote...


You haven't brought up realism in any post until now. Why didn't you say that was what you wanted in the first place? We've just been talking about how iconic and unique looks are a benefit to establishing character and ambient storytelling, while you've been saying that since they look different than NPC examples of similar classes, it's weird for you.

I just want my characters to look the way they say they look. If I dress Varric in the same armor as Carta Thug #35, then it takes away from his uniqueness as a character, and removes the ambient storytelling element of his visuals. I've said from the beginning that I am not against alternate outfits (or even realistic outfits, such as they are in a world where weapons can be perpetually on fire, demons can appear from thin air, and dragons the size of houses can fly) for the companions. However, I am against generic outfits for the followers (like there were in DAO), because I feel it takes away from that ambient storytelling element. I didn't like how my dwarf warrior Warden was completely indistinguishable from Oghren once suited up. I didn't like how my female human rogue Warden was indistinguishable from Leliana from behind.

I don't have these issues in DA2, because the followers in DA2 are clearly recognizable.

Okay, in-game 'realistic'. I really just meant consistent (to the rest of the game's "realism"), like I said in my last post, I just worded it stupidly that time. The apostrophe quotes were meant to get all that across but on reflection there was no reason they would've..

I never had the problem of losing a sense for their character when companions wore "generic" armour in DAO. I would've liked the toggle to hide helmets, but even fully armoured they were always easy enough to pick out in a fight. But to me, Alistair in the Juggernaut set was his iconic look, it's what he wore for the majority of the game and I was there when we found it --earned it, even--, but it's also visually unique while still in-keeping with armour design throughout the game.

*That's* what I want. If the comapnion armour resembled other armour styles in the game closely enough to be recognizable as armour from the same setting, but still looked unique enough to have them stand out during a fight and give some hints as to their character (they don't need to wear their personalities like hats, but there's no reason their armour can't be personal to them), then I'd be happy.