193 Antworten in diesem Thema

[dunniteowl]

Since the talk about Atari ceding their once exclusive license to produce D&D games became a fait accompli the other day, we've been batting about the idea of a last hurrah patch for NWN2.  I know that Obsidian was doing some work on a post 1.23 patch just prior to the whole legal mess and I thought now would be a good time to once again petition (which means asking nicely and being as convincing as possible) the Obsidian, Hasbro and Atari folks for a finalized 1.24 patch.

Then we got to discussing the merits of efforts and Kaldor Silverwand thought that any patching should include the Mac group.  Small as the number is, I am forced to agree.  Otherwise, the small Mac portion of the Community would be out of patch level with the rest of the Community and that wouldn't be cool.  We don't want a "tyranny of the many" situation out of dedicated self interest -- or simple failure to look at the bigger picture.

Then Mokah mentioned that whatever they did (if they did do anything) would be unappreciated if it messed with all the efforts of Kaedrin, Skywing and painofdungeoneternal and others in the things they've fixed and found workarounds for (you know, all that stuff we were told was impossible to do?)  Then she went further and thought it would be better if the Devs just released the source code to members like those named and let them use it to improve the game by being able to dive 'under the hood' of the engine and make the changes.

Personally, I like both ideas, but I have to admit, I like Mokah's idea better than mine.  So here it is, this thread, in which you voice your support of either idea (or both, that's certainly possible) or neither of them.

I would like you to firstly choose one to support or order them in priority for your point of view.  Then, if you have another idea or would like to qualify your support (or new idea) in whatever way, go ahead and do that.

If you take issue with someone else's point of view or explanation, PLEASE take it to a new thread.  I would like this one to simply be a list of who prefers what and why.  If there is to be any debate on personal points of view, that would be better to do in another thread so as not to clutter up this list's results.

I intend to use the arguments and positions as fodder to develop my request (which I hope to have all supporters digitally endorse) to Obsidian, Atari and Hasbro, possibly in that order.  If you have other ideas, like adding in some models, or fixing some other issues, please go ahead and suggest them in a PM to me or start a new thread.

So now, let the games begin.  My vote will be posted after this has been put up in the Forums.

[dunniteowl]

I vote either one.

My priority would be:

1) Source Code released to members of the Community already shown to be making improvements to the game.

2) Failing that, in the alternative, a finalized 1.24 patch which includes and/or incorporates the work that Community members like Kaedrin, painofdungeoneternal, Skywing and others have done to improve the overall level of gameplay and options.

If models are considered at all, I would only ask that Obsidian would go back and apply tint maps that work for interior tiles, walls and items that currently cannot be tinted.  All the models already on the Vault are -- already on the Vault.

Explication:
If the code were released, the issues many have with the game could be addressed in a relialbe and responsible manner through Community efforts, championed by those that have already proven they have the 'chops' necessary to do this level of work in a professional manner.  I would trust that thoes provided the code would not be hasty or frivolous when it comes to choosing whom they would supply that code to in order to make the gaming experience more robust and flexible.

Having the source code could allow those members of the Community the necessary level of access to allow them to integrate and/or remove restrictions that they have found fixes and workarounds for.  Additionally, the code would provide folks like these Community members the necessary knowledge to make even better and more robust tools like an improved DM Client, possibly allow for more classes, more weapons, horses and other things that, without the code, we are left to muddling through and doing the best that can be done without access to the underpinned code.  With the code, things could actually be FIXED and I mean really, truly fixed to make the game do more than it does now and to make it more like we envisioned it should have been upon release.

And of course, if that isn't possible, I would hope that we could convince the Powers That Be that a final 1.24 patch should be released for both the Mac and PC versions of the game, including the powerful scripting and fixes that folks like Kaedrin, Reeron, RPGplayer, painofdungeoneternal and others have pushed out that goes well beyond simple workarounds and improvements to the game.  I would hate to see those fixes get completely toasted due to a final patch and then have to have those folks go back to the drawing board.  That would definitely suck big time.

dunniteowl

[MokahTGS]

I vote Source code.

A patch would just break things, while the source would basically let the community go wild.

[PJ156]

Patch - one that includes the best of the community content to date formalising it in the game and toolset.

Exp

While I have every confidence in the skillset of our community members I fear that having source code being modified could leave us in something of a mess with respect to updating the game. A 1.24 patch may not be perfect but one would hope that it would simply be a case of everyone uploading it and we all play from the same baseline.

PJ  

[Marshall V]

Depends on what's in the patch.

[M. Rieder]

Source code. This will provide long term returns versus the short term benefit of one patch. Furthermore, goodness knows what would be changed with a 1.24 patch. 2 years of community content has been made with 1.23 and it works well. I think that the source code would empower our super-community members to do really amazing things with the engine for year

[Morbane]

Source code would be so great for those able to access it.

A patch would hopefully incorporate community enhancements.

In that order.

[casadechrisso]

I'm torn. Generally, I agree with dunniteowl's second post, although I have reservations.

Source code is of course the best the community could get, but I doubt that we have a chance to get it. And if, how can we ensure that we end up with a single patch project for the whole community and not a dozen or even just two competing patches that try to make it better than the rest and might render the game versions incompatible to each other? Anyway, I'd love to see the work of Skywing and others included, and the source code would be the best way to ensure this.

A patch has the big advantage of being official, everyone would get the exact same patch and the company that made the Mac port might be more willing to bring it over to the Mac crowd. This is sadly not Obsidian's business but Aspyr's, and in the past it didn't work too well. Being a Mac user (playing the Windows version though) I remember too well how hard it was for the Mac crowd to get the past patches. It took a year or so until multiplayer with the PC crowd was possible again, so I don't really trust Aspyr on this and would think the community might provide a port earlier than them - if the Mac crowd isn't completely forgotten by the community, that is. I agree that keeping the two platforms on the same patch level is crucial and must be kept in mind.

Conclusion, I'm hoping for the source code and one community project focusing on a single patch for all platforms. My hopes aren't high though.

Bearbeitet von casadechrisso, 16 August 2011 - 09:13 .

[The Fred]

I am dubious about them being willing to release the source code, and even if we did it would be a lot of work to do stuff with it, and then there's the question of distribution of updates. Any subsequent "patches" produced by the community would be just that, community patches, rather than official ones.

From a personal point of view, I'd rather just have a patch, but it'd have not to introduce new bugs and things which will never get fixed. Furthermore even if we did get the patch, we'd never get another, so in the long-run the source code is better. I just think that there are a lot of details that would have to be thrashed out before that could possibly happen.

So put me down for source code then patch, providing something sensible could be worked out. Really, getting anything at this stage would be great, but I think the biggest thing would be talking to the community and seeing what they actually want. Incidentally I still haven't bought SoZ/Platinum yet so there's a business incentive for them right there.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I vote No on Source code for game. Source code is fine and all and i'd not turn it down, but those who know how to code, have debugging tools to patch running code - this is how client extender and NWNx work. I also know this is not realistic as a goal for us to ask. Some things like speed tree and the like are integral and just won't be releaseable.

However i would really like to get an open source toolset. Obsidian was talking about it, just would need agreement from Bioware, and stripping or just not providing some things ( or just leaving them in as a DLL ). An open source version of the server would be good as well. And this would mean all those using it would be required to use the NWN2 game itself ( and steam is still selling this game rather well ). I'd say this makes more money overall.

I vote for a 1.24 patch. It would bring more folks back for another look. I heard grinning fool had ideas, and his being involved for 1.23 really ensured it was problem free, and well skywing is skywing - as of this moment he's already got rewritten code for the resource loader, networking and pathfinding which i am pretty sure you could just replace and it would improve things. I would say involving those community coders would really ensure the 1.24 patch is well received, and minimize the work obsidian would have to do.

As for mac, i'd say destroy the entire current conversion, it was done so poorly it's just sad. There was a programmer who was working on fixing it, but from what i understand it would not be easy. Go and use the wine on mac solutions that allow windows programs to run on mac, ( note there are folks using wineskin for this, and EA did a lot of games using cider ) and have some skilled folks do the conversion. ( some things get optimized or adjusted for platform, lot of games are being done like this now and some are garbage, some are just as good as the original, it depends on how well it's done, but it's less work than fixing what is already done ). It would only run on intel of course, but it runs much better from what i hear from wineskin users. The mac users never got an all in one product which is also sad, they are left out and are buying the windows version, and i am pretty sure the mac version is still going for full price. Ideally releasing this via steam or the mac store, well that seems the way of the future.

We need to consider how this benefits them ( hasbro and atari ) if this is going to have legs.

Bearbeitet von painofdungeoneternal, 16 August 2011 - 09:37 .

[Kaldor Silverwand]

They are not going to open source their code for either the engine or the toolset. Pigs would fly. Companies don't give away intellectual property just to please their customers.

A patch would be fine with me IF there is either a blessed Mac version released as well OR all Mac registered game owners are allowed a free supported download of a Cider installation of NWN2. From what I've seen the community efforts regarding this have questionable support at best. If I wanted something as complicated to install and get working as Linux I wouldn't use a Mac.

Regards

[kamal_]

Neither. If people are constantly going to be distracted by the latest hope to band aid over some bit of nwn2, then less work will be done on the real hope, Plan 9.

[kamal_]

Also I'd like to suggest a timeout for the spammer and removal of the threads posted in almost every category. It was unnecessary. Enthusiastic, but unecessary.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

I would like to hear from some actual code monkeys before deciding, but I think releasing the source code and then creating a community-made patch might be better.

As I see it, the game engine is basically still a work in progress, and needs attention in just a few critical areas to make the whole thing less frustrating.
1. Camera controls.
2. Pathfinding (I wish NPCs would be more commonsensical about pathfinding, not stopping abruptly when their distant goal is blocked, but getting as close as they can. It would also be neat if they couldn't instantly find their way out of mazes, but had to blunder through them using a simpler algorithm).
3. Mounts (I assume the code for this is half-finished, and it would be easier and better to finish what OEI started than kludge together a work-around, though I know the work-around is almost finished).
4. Generally pulling-out all the hard-coded mechanics and handling them through script, so modders can change things.
5. Figuring out how the h*ll that walkmesh actually gets baked, and other little oddities.

I don't think we can expect OEI to iron out all the bugs in one last patch, but the community might be able to pull it off, given enough time.

@kamalpoe: retooling NWN2 might be the best shortcut to Plan9.

[Dann-J]

Source code.

When official patches stopped coming for Gothic III, the modding community started producing 'Community Patches'. They turned an almost unplayable game into something highly enjoyable. If the source code hadn't been released to the modding team then the community patches wouldn't have been possible. It also kept people playing the game long after it would have died an ignoble death in it's officially released form.

Bearbeitet von DannJ, 16 August 2011 - 11:02 .

[MasterChanger]

 Though a comprehensive patch may be preferable in the short term, I think the source code would be more helpful in the long term, with a few caveats: 1) the advanced coders who could actually do something with the source code, like Skywing, Kaedrin, Pain, PeachyKeen, and Zebransky, would have to want it and 2) the terms of the release would have to not create legal burdens on these folks in terms of what they can and can't release.

I'll illustrate why I think the source code would be more helpful in the long run with the example of detection/perception.

Obsidian was struggling with what to do with Invisibility for a while and ended up implementing a fix in Patch 1.23 that probably hindered more than it helped. I believe that they would have tried something else with 1.24 but were obviously prevented from doing so. However, the way Invisibility was changed in 1.23 underscored its connections to a broad range of issues (most notably Blindness).

If the source code were available, all manner of perception-related issues might be able to be opened up to scripted solutions. These largely relate to the ability to specify whether A can detect B, separately from whether C can detect B or B detect A. For example, what if someone wanted to implement illusions in a more interesting way? They could specify that a certain illusion could be seen through (perceived one way rather than another) by rolling a Will Save or casting True Sight. Or someone might implement a certain magic ring making the wearer invisible to most creatures but instantly perceivable by creatures with a tie to that ring.

Of course, it's possible that none of the above could be easily accomplished even if the source code were available. When Pain says that something is impractical with the tools in question, I tend to believe him. This is to say nothing of the probability of Atari being convinced, as Kaldor argues.

[Rex Radar]

In short --> free the Tool set first, then the super patch. This I believe will allow almost as much improvement to the game as the source code could.

I can foresee some advantages to having the source code, in the same vein as MasterC. There is also the possibility of allowing the grafix engine to be upgraded or changed out entirely at some point way down the line. It could also be a nice leap (1/2 way point) towards a Plan 9.

Big disadvantage is having more than one solution for a given problem being developed resulting in several different community patches. This is simpler to resolve if only one problem at a time is examined (say stealth). But that is unlikely since different modders would have different priorities. Thus there would be several patches resolving different problems being released around the same time, as pointed out above. Only by having set agreed upon rules in place (which methods should be used for x, y, a, b type problems), along with set scheduling for patch compilation can this be averted. Simpler to keep it neat if that community is small. But patches and improvement will grow more if the community is large.

In long Toolset, Patch, Then free the Source code--> first to a group of modders who can agree to a convention of improvement. They would be the core community leading the way with improved patches. Then release it to me and the rest of us normals who can take turns messing it up. Ultimately making new and unique RPG forms that rule our minds. Or at least mine.

Also I the realist in me want to see a thread started on the odds of each thing happening.

[NWN DM]

My priority would be:

1) Source Code released to members of the Community already shown to be making improvements to the game.

This.

A patch after all this time is only going to;

a) screw up the plug-ins, module scripting packages, etc... that no longer have authors active in the community.
cause huge issues for the Steam version because there is a lengthy "approval" process that Obsidian would then have to go through with that company to get the new patch added.
c) invariably cause other down stream problems and outright errors that themselves would have to be patched (or leave us with more broken things)

IMO obviously... but I think it's based solidly on past experience with this game.

[c i p h e r]

Source code would be my preference. We'd be able to fix all the problems in the game w/o asking/begging/pleading a for-profit business to invest their own money into an aging game.

Barring that, I would propose allowing individuals to petition for access to the code and binding them with an NDA or other legalese to protect whatever IP rights are involved. OE/Atari would own and maintain the code repository, and possibly even retain responsibility for integrating and releasing changes submitted by approved community members. This would be like having their own employees - or contractors if they use them - develop code for them but without the significant investment in developer salaries.

Just a thought.

[E.C.Patterson]

I just vote "no" on sending any enthusiast in timeout at this stage.

Bearbeitet von E.C.Patterson, 17 August 2011 - 03:20 .

[pkpeachykeen]

While source isn't possible, more information on the engine (headers, docs, symbols) is far more valuable than a patch. Even a limited release to a few people would be far more helpful.

A patch is of extremely limited scope: what they do, they do, and there are no long-term effects. They can fix things that are already mostly fixed and a patch at this stage is likely to break a lot of other things.
Providing us additional information allows us to make changes, up to and likely including a patch, and beyond. As shown, the modding community has plenty of time and creativity.

It's the old bit about teaching a man to fish.

[Emeraq]

Kaldor Silverwand wrote...

They are not going to open source their code for either the engine or the toolset. Pigs would fly. Companies don't give away intellectual property just to please their customers.

A patch would be fine with me IF there is either a blessed Mac version released as well OR all Mac registered game owners are allowed a free supported download of a Cider installation of NWN2. From what I've seen the community efforts regarding this have questionable support at best. If I wanted something as complicated to install and get working as Linux I wouldn't use a Mac.

Regards

^This. I just don't see them giving this away.

I don't know anything about programming, so I could be offbase with my thoughts here but what's to stop an individual or team with access to this code to take it, modify and create a completely different product from someone elses work?

I vote patch, but done in a manner that it doesn't break currently compatible community content.

[Eat2surf]

I don't see how they would justify either... Source code.. well that's their game. How do they keep selling it if they've given the code... a patch makes more sense on their part. A chance to give a boost to the game and perhaps get some more sales... but it _would_ break some things. It's inevitable... but the community would just fix what it broke. Yes, it would be a big job for those that took it on... but someone would fix things.

... which circles back to where we are now. So.. I guess I'm hopeful for a patch... but I'm not going to hold my breath. ... though.. with the economy, milking an old title may seem like a wise thing for them to do... somebody roll a d20 vs WIS.

[luna_hawke]

Hey dunnite.. without knowing what the 1.24 patch would be.
I can't tell?

Is there any list of what another patch might contain.


I guess otherwise, I'd be split as well.
I can only see a few people moding the actual source code.
While it might sound great to get the source.. I guess I'm slightly doubtful of what might come out of it.

[Shallina]

A patch that correct more bugs, give more function for scripting and most of all, don't mess with community content.

An open source toolset would be handy. The only benefit of game source code is for beeing able to script melee feat and custom effect (but there is a work around that works fine for custom effect).

More than 30 lvl ? It's al ready possible since it's in the UI and that we can do what ever we want with it.