193 réponses à ce sujet

[dunniteowl]

The Citadel went down and dormant for lack of funding. Blame it on the economy. The entire database was saved and is "in storage" at this point in time. I am considering how and what to do about getting the Citadel's DB (or possibly the site hosted with someone else who can let us "piggyback") online.

The proposal has not been made to Atari yet. I have some RL issues that have pulled me away from much if not all my gaming interests for some time. I have only just recently started feeling like I might be able to devote more time to my gaming interests -- this proposal being chief amongst them. I have been keeping my finger on the pulse of the Community and paying attention. I have responded only to personal enquiries, bigger issues on the forums and that's pretty much it.

I am here and watching from my old dead tree in the middle of the miasmic swamp where I hear tell there are the strident sounds of Kuo Toa in the distance as well as the sibliant sussurations of snake-like sentients called Yuan-ti, calling to the faithful to rise up, destroy all humanity and enslave it. Oddly, I saw an Atari flag (or so I thought) waving madly through the mist.

If anyone has any other bright ideas about how to pitch this, I am all ears, by the way. I certainly don't consider me the final idea generator for this.

dno

[Avalon Aurora]

For the Atari pitch, you might want to point out that controlled release of source-code, allowing for fan-made final patches and a new round of content could cause a resurgence of interest in the game, enough for old players to refer more friends to it. This at little extra work for them, other than the legal of working out the contracts with the selected community members.

For a final patch, simply point out that it might remind community members that the game exists, especially if it is a good final patch, and again, encourage them to talk to friends about the game, possibly encouraging them to get copies of it as well.

I might also point out that they had a pretty bad track record for the game's release and patching, and while they left it on an okay note, they never quite completed the work, and there are many areas of the game that might be somewhat embarrassing to their record of game production. Fixing the remaining issues with a final patch or two, or at least allowing the community to do so, now that the legal issues surrounding the D&D licensing are cleared up, would help convince customers that they take the functionality of their work seriously, and not be discouraged from buying new other games from Atari out of fear that they'll be buggy and lose support from Atari before patching is finished dealing with _all_ the issues.

[dunniteowl]

Very good advice. I was thinking along those very same lines. I'm looking at spinning things in as positive a light for them as possible. Even the loss of the license could be spun to good advantage -- they're still allowed to make as much as they can off existing products. NWN2, given a final patch and/or source code released under NDA to select Community members could spark more interest as you point out and lead to more sales, thus lining their pockets without having to really do anything more than give a legal nod to the right folks and prominently display NWN2 and it's expansions on their digital delivery section. The Community would literally do the rest. That sounds pretty win-win, wouldn't you say?

[Avalon Aurora]

I would indeed!

Also, at another time, after this project, I might suggest bringing up with them if they have begun discussions with WotC regarding games using D&D Next, or 5th edition or whatever I've begun hearing about, since it clearly takes some time to complete a game, and they might want to get started on whatever new games they'll be doing for the next system soon after it comes out, possibly even before, for stuff like the general storyline. The sooner they get started, the better chance they have to get all the bugs ironed out before they have to release it.

[Zeevico]

Source code would be great. It would add to the life of the game and may even encourage more people to purchase it at little to no cost to the publishers and developers.

[schalafi]

I want to reinstall NWN2, and MOTB, but I recall from my original installations that I had to go through the installation of multiple patches. Would this final patch include all the info from the former patches? I'd like to replay the games, but don't want to sit through hours of patch downloads. Also I don't feel I have enough experience to deal with the source code.

Modifié par schalafi, 14 février 2012 - 06:49 .

[Rex Radar]

I hope i'm not stepping on any toes here but Scalafi, please post a new topic instead of butting into this one for your first point. But the answer is either A purchace Steam version (comes with OC, MothB, SOZ fully patched but is a long overnight type down load) B reinstall and patch repatedly untill 1.23 MotB is complete.

Back on topic as noted above some people don't have the experiance for the toolset let alone the source code. I believe that this is actually an advantage and good reason to realease the source code.

The tool as is set, lets users experiance many simple programming functions in a controled enviroment with fairly quick results. ie use of scripts, waypoints, cause and effect to create plot goals are all along the type of logical/critical thinking that proper computer programming depends on. Then if people feel so inclined the more adavenced options the source code would allow could let these users to dwelve deeper into how computer programming functions.

Not saying that this is going to produce the net (next) generation of Linus', Steve's or Bill's, but it may inspire nurmouse people to a career path they would not have consideredd before.

In short the source code should be realesed due to the fun low risk/high reward education opportunity it presents.

[The Fred]

Actually, it seems Schalafi was just asking if any final patch would include info from the former patches; as it happens, this isn't really how patches work. If it were released as a "mega-patch" which contained all the patch data, it would take just as long to download as if you had to download all the previous patches first - so no. The patch would likely be stand-alone just like every other patch.

[schalafi]

The Fred wrote...

Actually, it seems Schalafi was just asking if any final patch would include info from the former patches; as it happens, this isn't really how patches work. If it were released as a "mega-patch" which contained all the patch data, it would take just as long to download as if you had to download all the previous patches first - so no. The patch would likely be stand-alone just like every other patch.

Thanks for your polite and informative answer; I didn't realize I had to have an invitation from Rex Rdar to post my question, but since I've been a member of the Bioware forums since 2003, I've met all types, some friendly, some arrogant. I'm not bothered with negativity, I chalk it up to ignorance.

Modifié par schalafi, 15 février 2012 - 06:17 .

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

The Fred wrote...

...this isn't really how patches work. If it were released as a "mega-patch" which contained all the patch data, it would take just as long to download as if you had to download all the previous patches first - so no. The patch would likely be stand-alone just like every other patch.

Wasn't there some hiccup with one patch deleting a voice-over or something, so that the next patch had to include the missing file?

If they do a final v1.24 patch, a 1.00-1.24 version and a 1.23-1.24 version might be nice, especially as patches move from the Atari servers to random internet sites.

[dunniteowl]

Lugaid, I'm betting that were a Community Patch of any sort made, it would be more thoroughly tested and vetted than usual. I'm not saying we, the Community, would be better at patch vetting than Obsidian, say, but, we're the ones that got burned each time, so I think the interest level and rigor would be provided -- plus we don't have to pay allegiance to a deadline.

[Rex Radar]

My appologies to Schalafi. After re-reading your post that is a good question and quite on point. I had interperated it at first as a self help question.

@ T. Fred I found that the patch then patch again process was how the auto updater worked for me when I had reinstalled after MotB, but before SOZ came out. I thought this was still the same. Since then I have upgraded to the Steam SOZ ed, which of corse is complete. So in short it appears ignorance was my unwanted ally.

I agree with Lugaid that having a transition patch would be nice and a complete patch, especially for a "final" patch whether it be unoffical or not. Specific patches may also be needed for for each combination of the OC and expansions a person may have installed.

But I forsee that over time there will be multiple extended community patches and they may not all be compatible. Much in the same way that some haks/mod/overrides are not compatible. This may not be dependant on if the source code is released as some clever person(s) may one day crack it or create a source code reader. The problem with the above will be moreso the case if source code ever gets into the wild.

I believe a simular situation had/has happened with some of the BG/BG2 fixes where they are not all compatible with one another.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Rex Radar wrote...

But I forsee that over time there will be multiple extended community patches and they may not all be compatible. Much in the same way that some haks/mod/overrides are not compatible. This may not be dependant on if the source code is released as some clever person(s) may one day crack it or create a source code reader. The problem with the above will be moreso the case if source code ever gets into the wild.

I think you aren't paying attention to the "clever people" in the community.

Just to note, Obsidian did release symbols for NWN2 ( and bioware some of the symbols for NWN1 ). For those with the right skills ( in other words the same skills you'd need if the source code were released ), are capable of modifying the game after it is running right in memory, and see exactly on a very low level how it's working to the degree where it can be replaced. I think i'd describe this as a "source code reader". Note that only a few are given this since it could create as much harm as good if it was freely distributed.

What does this mean-to focus on skywings work, well the NWNx bugfix replaces the "resource loader" which determines what content you have available in game pulled from zips and haks and erfs and whatever else is out there. The networking is replaced via similiar method, which ties into the client extension. Pathfinding is similarly redone via the client, and new script functions and features are being added. Scripting is also being replaced, to the point of having the capability of writing scripts for NWN2 in C#, replacing the in game script execution routine on a server, and how it compiles the code for the game.

Peachykeen is focused on adding shaders and other features to the graphics, which i think is the only area which skywings not in the process of replacing.

Arpl helped me fix uncanny dodge for my PW as well. And this is not really exclusive to Multiplayer, it's just those who want to do this tend to play multiplayer, and the client extension works for both. Given time NWNx should be something that helps both single and multi player.

There are many ways to deliver patches, and we have some very clever people working on things. However i really don't think our community is ever going to recreate the way some other game did their patches, really i'd assume where we are headed with NWN2 is far better than what is even possible in those other games. The only real problem is ALL of this takes time, and we are doing it part time.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 17 février 2012 - 11:51 .

[Rex Radar]

Thank you for the update Pain.

I have been following the improvements in both multi-player and graphical prowess for some time and agree that the work that Skywing, Peechkeen, yourself and others are doing is great and will drastically improve the game. I'm probably wrong to call it a loose collaboration, but from an outsiders POV that is what this appears to be.

My point was that at sometime somebody else will find their way into the engine/source code and they will have a different philosophy of how things should/could be done. This will happen it's just a matter of time.

The best mitigation for preventing this from happening is to have clear goals between the different community projects and cross testing so the final works from each individual/team will be compatible. This may be happening already to some extent, but as an outsider (from the programming community) I am unsure.

This also brings up a question... Is the release of the source code necessary if this level of correction is currently underway?

As far a time goes the quote is "It will be done when it's done" I've waited around this long, I have no problem to keep waiting.

[painofdungeoneternal]

My point was that at sometime somebody else will find their way into the engine/source code and they will have a different philosophy of how things should/could be done. This will happen it's just a matter of time.

How is that bad.

My point of view is that it's possible to be different and work together, this means PVP servers working with DM run servers, SP with MP, action with roleplay, and even working with entirely different games like NWN1 ( or mac or linux users). Those people thinking differently add a lot of values.

Now a loose alliance, well we share common goals, but we are free to disagree, and also to work together, to talk and help each other. At the end of the day the end result has to be what i personally want, or why should i bother. If i want psions, well kaedrin does not like them at all, but i am free to develop them, and features i make for them can be used in classes he is working on. End users should be able to choose what pieces to install, and those pieces should work together to some degree, which should allow them to create faerun, high fantasy, Conan, or even d20 modern. Sure this is not efficient, but this is the only way to ensure each end user can follow rule zero of D&D. The worst thing that can happen is that we are limited to the results of just one persons imagination.

I see a lot of concern for issues which "might be" problems in theory - i personally have enough problems with "actual" problems that are holding me back, which a new patch, or source code, or just using NWNx and symbols might solve. Sure any time you get new features it's 2 steps forward and one 1 step backwards, it will have issues, but the issues are petty compared to what we could gain. We need to just keep moving forward and trust that no matter what problem we run into the community will rise to solve it.

[Avalon Aurora]

Any updates on this dunniteowl?

[dunniteowl]

I have heard nothing since I asked last time, let me re-issue a request for an update.

[mchotdog33]

if voting still matters, i vote for source code. All those annoying hardcoded stuff can finally be changed.

[Shatterbrain]

I'll just leave this here.

[Happycrow]

No idea what the status would be, or even what they'd want for the release (or how MUCH for the licensing), but our PW has just hit a snag where we COULD massively improve the combat AI (think really massive battles), except for a little problem that can't be fixed w/o source-code access. So all in favor of the latter.

[kamal_]

Happycrow wrote...

No idea what the status would be, or even what they'd want for the release (or how MUCH for the licensing), but our PW has just hit a snag where we COULD massively improve the combat AI (think really massive battles), except for a little problem that can't be fixed w/o source-code access. So all in favor of the latter.

Pain's AI already does at least a hundred on a side, complete with special ability use. His demo from his PW was illithid versus planetars or solars. Are you already using his release of that via the CSL? I have a couple hundred commoners, per area, working via his ai (in SP in my case).

[Happycrow]

Missed the release entirely. Is there a live link remaining?

[c i p h e r]

Just adding my voice to the RELEASE SOURCE CODE movement. I think the strongest argument for doing this may be in the public relations department. It would be such a cool move, the Atari brand would get an instant make-over. Ultimately, what do they have to lose?

[kamal_]

Happycrow wrote...

Missed the release entirely. Is there a live link remaining?

This is my copy. It may not be the absolute latest, but it is recent.
http://dl.dropbox.co...4/CSLScripts.7z

I don't remember if Pain's posted anything more recent.

On topic: I'd prefer a source code release.

[nicethugbert]

Mongol General:: Conan! What is best in life?

Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women and to have NWN2 source code.

Mongol General: That is NEAT! That is NEAT!

Modifié par nicethugbert, 31 mars 2012 - 10:40 .