462 réponses à ce sujet

[AnAccountWithNoName]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I feel bad for the OP, they didn't mean to start a flame war,but no one can read an OP with a title like that,so due to a poor choice in words,so very few are actually responding to the OP and instead are just fueling a S/S debate... there is a thread for that.

Haven't even seen the OP in a few pages,y'all went and killed him.

Im still around

Though i prefer to just read peoples responses and ideas about this issue, then responding myself.

[ipgd]

Davie McG wrote...

I just think that if you could avoid deeply offending someone, why not avoid it?

Bigotry is caused by discomfort with the unfamiliar. More frequent exposure is what desensitizes people; what is accepted as an everyday occurrence is less likely to be viewed with intolerance.

By implementing such toggles Bioware would be helping to prolong this issue. While they do not have some sort of duty to be grand and supremely progressive and constantly concerned with making life better for all oppressed minorities everywhere, I'd sure as hell hope they wouldn't go as far as to capitulate to these people and implicitly confirm that it is acceptable to be prejudiced against homosexuals. Which is the message they would be sending by implementing a "gay toggle".

Try mentally substituting "gay toggle" for an "interracial toggle" that would allow sensitive individuals to prevent any flirty dialogue options from appearing between a white Shepard and Jacob. Surely you can understand why such a toggle would make certain people go bat**** insane and end up infinitely more offended than any of the anti-interracial folks whose delicate sensibilities they were trying to spare? While I am sure you believe it is totally different and the media representation of gay people needn't be handled with as much care or integrity as any other minority group, it's essentially the same as how it would make LGBT or LGBT supportive people feel. And if 'sparing offense' is the argument, do people who are offended by gay people really have some sort of special right to be catered to at the expense and offense of several other groups?

And, really, this "toggle" already exists in the game. It's called not romancing any same sex characters. All a toggle would do would move this option from the dialogue menu to the character creation screen, and the only thing it would accomplish is accommodating people who are prejudiced against gay people. Which is unacceptable.

Modifié par ipgd, 17 août 2011 - 12:14 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Vulsamee wrote...

I think certain character's should be based on their personality. For instance;
Garrus would be straight, but Jack is a lesbian? Meaning no offense to anybody or the characters, but just their personalities, their reactions, ect, it would/wouldn't make sense for certain characters to be straight, gay, or bi.

If they did everyone same-sex romances, though, similar to DA II, I wouldn't mind it though. It wouldn't affect me if I'm not doing the romance so in all honesty it doesn't matter too much to me.

This isn't supposed to be a thread on what characters are or aren't whatever sexual orientation,this thread is about ninjamancing.

Simply put,OP doesn't want to go talk to a potential LI and accidently get locked into a relationship.

[devSin]

I'm ready for the gay implants!

[leggywillow]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Simply put,OP doesn't want to go talk to a potential LI and accidently get locked into a relationship.

Yep.

But I think is a problem that BW has already addressed and fixed, so it should be a non-issue.  Ninjamances were a problem in ME1 (I got that damn "choose one!" dialogue between Kaidan and Liara almost every time I played, no matter how hard I shot Liara down earlier.)

In ME2, this didn't happen.  You had to intentionally choose a romance trigger dialogue option that was pretty obvious ("I want you, Thane").  Otherwise, no romance dialogue came up.  (Well, I think Tali might drop some vague flirt lines, but if Shepard doesn't address them, nothing comes of it.  She doesn't get huffy or press it further.)

So basically, yeah, OP had a legitimate concern, but I don't think we need to worry about it in ME3.

[Jog0907]

cant we just choose if your character is gay or not (or bi) in the character creation menu and based on that it opens or locks romance paths with other characters, you know that way you avoid ending in a same-sex romance with garrus by accident because the romance path is locked from the start of the game if you choose to be straight.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

@Willow, I believe Miranda has a ninjamance,I have only romanced her once,but you get to a point where you go to talk to her and there isn't a "Oh,don't get the wrong impression" button and you are locked in.

[Davie McG]

ipgd wrote...

Davie McG wrote...

I just think that if you could avoid deeply offending someone, why not avoid it?

Bigotry is caused by discomfort with the unfamiliar. More frequent exposure is what desensitizes people; what is accepted as an everyday occurrence is less likely to be viewed with intolerance.

By implementing such toggles Bioware would be helping to prolong this issue. While they do not have some sort of duty to be grand and supremely progressive and constantly concerned with making life better for all oppressed minorities everywhere, I'd sure as hell hope they wouldn't go as far as to capitulate to these people and implicitly confirm that it is acceptable to be prejudiced against homosexuals. Which is the message they would be sending by implementing a "gay toggle".

Try mentally substituting "gay toggle" for an "interracial toggle" that would allow sensitive individuals to prevent any flirty dialogue options from appearing between a white Shepard and Jacob. Surely you can understand why such a toggle would make certain people go bat**** insane and end up infinitely more offended than any of the anti-interracial folks whose delicate sensibilities they were trying to spare? While I am sure you believe it is totally different and the media representation of gay people needn't be handled with as much care or integrity as any other minority group, it's essentially the same as how it would make LGBT or LGBT supportive people feel. And if 'sparing offense' is the argument, do people who are offended by gay people really have some sort of special right to be catered to at the expense and offense of several other groups?

And, really, this "toggle" already exists in the game. It's called not romancing any same sex characters. All a toggle would do would move this option from the dialogue menu to the character creation screen, and the only thing it would accomplish is accommodating people who are prejudiced against gay people. Which is unacceptable.

The race thing already is toggled, I think my use of the word toggle in my post was perhaps incorrect. What I mean to say is that you select your sexuality at the begining, just like you select your eye colour and skin colour and name and all that stuff.

I'm not insinuating people can choose their sexuality either as I also stated in my first post. Just that at the begining of the game you have the oppertunity to make a bisexual character or a straight one or a homosexual one, just like you decide which ethnicity or gender you wish to play as.

[Sundance31us]

AnAccountWithNoName wrote...
So how would you implant same-sex romance in ME3?

Opening the window to s/s romance could be done semi-subtly through a series of dialogue options (marked as such preferably).

[shepskisaac]

Davie McG wrote...
Should we just barge ahead ham fisted into a idealistic world of tolerance? or should we say fu©k em', and if they don't like it then tough sh¡t?

Yes. There is no reason apart from fear to submit to irrational hate/dislike/disgust. There was no reason for that in many other cases of discrimination in the past, there is no reason for that now either. And in the end, like you've said whether it's wrong or not, it is still pure hipocrisy to be ok with murders, stealing, adultery and every other sin imaginable while demand a toggle for one specific thing. Thus approving of hipocrisy adds to why there shouldn't be a toggle like that due to religious reasons.

Davie McG wrote...
The best way to deal with it for me would be if Bioware wrote the game in such a way that if they wanted to engage in same sex romances then let people do that, so long as it isn't forced onto others, or ninjamanced as people like to call it. The only problem with that if we're trying to make a game to suit everyone is that it's hard to do that and also escape the atmosphere (if that's the right word), the feeling or 'vibe' that something could be happening between the lines. It's a form of ninjamance that I've found the most creepy with these games, and it could make people highly uncomfortable if they arn't ok with it.

Or just have heart icon next to all romance options and let's be done with this overblown pseudo-issue. I personally never had the slightest problems noticing when one of the BioWare characters was hitting on me, IMO the romance dialogues in video games are written so blatantly obvious any young adult, especially in this day & age, should be able to notice 'the hints'.

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I feel bad for the OP

I ain't so sure 'bout that. Looking at the OP's thread history, he/she seems to like open threads that are known to be considered 'hot topics'.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 17 août 2011 - 12:28 .

[rapscallioness]

As far as NinjaMancing: Well, I thought abt. it for a few minutes and have come to the conclusion that it'd be fun.

More like real life. You don't have a heart icon when you're talking to ppl and getting to know them. They may have feelings for you that you have no idea abt.....or maybe you do because they make it clear.

Basically, it comes down to how do you deal with getting Hit On. Some ppl get hit on all the time. It's something you must learn to navigate.

I'm just saying that imo it's more realistic if you don't know what you're walking into. Ppl come up w/ stuff, s/s and str8, all the time that you never knew was going on in regards to their feelings for you.

I don't think everyone should be bi cuz that's just generic..and too easy. I do think there shouldn't be an "instruction booklet" for it. No hints, just be surprised when, or if it happens. Then figure out wat ur gonna do abt it.

Ninjamancing...yes!

[leggywillow]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@Willow, I believe Miranda has a ninjamance,I have only romanced her once,but you get to a point where you go to talk to her and there isn't a "Oh,don't get the wrong impression" button and you are locked in.

You may be right; I haven't played a ManShep enough to memorize how the female LIs act.  But the one time I did play a ManShep who didn't romance her, I don't remember it being a problem.  There was a specific conversation I saved right before that triggered the romance, which I saved for close to the SM so I could try her romance and then reload.

My guess is that you did accidentally click on the romance trigger dialogue.  That's why my recommendation is for BW to generally do things the same way as ME2, but include some kind of heart icon (ala Dragon Age 2) so that no one accidentally stumbles into the romance.  Or since they don't do "icons" exactly, maybe color in the romance trigger line.  Something to indicate that it's different.

Again, you may be right, but I think the problem is that Miranda's trigger dialogue isn't as obvious as some of the others.  With Thane, you literally say "I want you Thane", which leaves very little room for a non-romantic interpretation.  ("I want you, Thane... for the Alliance Navy?").

[Abispa]

Well, it looks like the ME2-only characters won't be s/s since they will only be around for limited time in ME3 and new romances should be possible only with character who will be available all through the game.

[Ellyria]

 I wouldn't mind if someone of the same sex hit on my Shepard, as long as there's a "I'm flattered, but I don't see you that way" option. Really, it's sort of flattering, in a way.

Now, if they ambushed me down in the engine room wearing nothing but their combat boots it would become very... *cough* awkward.

[ipgd]

Davie McG wrote...

The race thing already is toggled, I think my use of the word toggle in my post was perhaps incorrect. What I mean to say is that you select your sexuality at the begining, just like you select your eye colour and skin colour and name and all that stuff.

I'm not insinuating people can choose their sexuality either as I also stated in my first post. Just that at the begining of the game you have the oppertunity to make a bisexual character or a straight one or a homosexual one, just like you decide which ethnicity or gender you wish to play as.

Setting the physical appearance of Shepard is not the same as setting an option to crystalize his or her sexual orientation and shut off any romance dialogue for same sex characters when playing a straight Shepard, nor is being able to choose Shepard's race equivalent to an option to shut off any romance dialogue for Jacob when playing a white Shepard.

Regardless, the functionality of it is not the inherent problem -- it is that its inclusion would be motivated solely by a desire to accommodate people who are prejudiced against homosexuality, which is unacceptable. An option to set Shepard's sexuality is such a functionally inconsequential change from the actual implementation of the same decisions in ME1 and 2 (i.e. you choose your Shepard's orientation by not sleeping with characters (s)he is not interested in) that it almost entirely boils down to a matter of intent, to spare people who are bothered by it the discomfort of even having to see same-sex romance dialogue on the wheel, and sending a message that legitimizes their concerns and implies that prejudice should be accommodated is not something Bioware wants to be doing.

Really, it is not that hard to understand how this is offensive and if you are really concerned with not offending people you should be able to see how this is not in any way a solution. The solution to prejudice is exposure, not concession and accommodation.

[Abispa]

Jog0907 wrote...

cant we just choose if your character is gay or not (or bi) in the character creation menu and based on that it opens or locks romance paths with other characters, you know that way you avoid ending in a same-sex romance with garrus by accident because the romance path is locked from the start of the game if you choose to be straight.

And how is that worse than all the opposite gender characters hitting on you in just about every Bioware game where LIs were available? You suffered through all those ninjamances yet you are still a Bioware fan.  DA2 in which four of the five LIs were were available for both genders and the other three characters were not available at all pretty much handled LIs better than the ME series. Even if, you "OMG activated the Anders ninjamance!" it was still possible to turn him down and then continue to develop a friendship or rivalry with him throughout the game, where as ME series pretty much says "if you're not going to do me I'll just go calibrate or something."

[Ellyria]

franciscoamell wrote...

Depending on whom, that could be really hot. I wouldn' t mind if Kaidan, Jacob, Vega or Thane did that, lol.

 I'm not saying it would always be a bad thing.

Just reminds me of my first playthrough of DAO, Zevran asked if it bothered my Warden if he fancied her, she said no, but then later he wants to give her a, *ahem* massage in her tent. Silly me, my Warden was just flattered, I didn't realize that picking that option meant that he wanted me to do some nudge nudge wink wink and break up with Alistair.

[Davie McG]

IsaacShep wrote...

Davie McG wrote...
Should we just barge ahead ham fisted into a idealistic world of tolerance? or should we say fu©k em', and if they don't like it then tough sh¡t?

Yes. There is no reason apart from fear to submit to irrational hate/dislike/disgust. There was no reason for that in many other cases of discrimination in the past, there is no reason for that now either. And in the end, like you've said whether it's wrong or not, it is still pure hipocrisy to be ok with murders, stealing, adultery and every other sin imaginable while demand a toggle for one specific thing. Thus approving of hipocrisy adds to why there shouldn't be a toggle like that due to religious reasons.

Davie McG wrote...
The best way to deal with it for me would be if Bioware wrote the game in such a way that if they wanted to engage in same sex romances then let people do that, so long as it isn't forced onto others, or ninjamanced as people like to call it. The only problem with that if we're trying to make a game to suit everyone is that it's hard to do that and also escape the atmosphere (if that's the right word), the feeling or 'vibe' that something could be happening between the lines. It's a form of ninjamance that I've found the most creepy with these games, and it could make people highly uncomfortable if they arn't ok with it.

Or just have heart icon next to all romance options and let's be done with this overblown pseudo-issue. I personally never had the slightest problems noticing when one of the BioWare characters was hitting on me, IMO the romance dialogues in video games are written so blatantly obvious any young adult, especially in this day & age, should be able to notice 'the hints'.

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I feel bad for the OP

I ain't so sure 'bout that. Looking at the OP's thread history, he/she seems to like open threads that are known to be considered 'hot topics'.

I get what your saying but I don't agree when it comes to disregarding someones religious beleifs, and I'm not talking about excluding anyone from playinng the game. Just that you would decide at the begining whether you want to play as a bisexual character or a straight character or a homosexual one, just like you already decide whether to play as a white character or oriental or hispanic etc.

[Abispa]

Chylise wrote...

 I wouldn't mind if someone of the same sex hit on my Shepard, as long as there's a "I'm flattered, but I don't see you that way" option. Really, it's sort of flattering, in a way.

Now, if they ambushed me down in the engine room wearing nothing but their combat boots it would become very... *cough* awkward.

And, of course, Bioware has set the precident for this many times in the past.

<_<

[Ellyria]

Abispa wrote...

And, of course, Bioware has set the precident for this many times in the past.

<_<

It was an extreme example that was supposed to be humorous. I guess I failed.

[rapscallioness]

Chylise wrote...

 I wouldn't mind if someone of the same sex hit on my Shepard, as long as there's a "I'm flattered, but I don't see you that way" option. Really, it's sort of flattering, in a way.

Now, if they ambushed me down in the engine room wearing nothing but their combat boots it would become very... *cough* awkward.

LOL

[Professor Solus]

I feel that same sex relationships AT THIS POINT in the game doesn't quite make sense. If it had been implemented from the beginning of the series than I could see that as working out fine. However, what sense would it make if you have had a Shepard that has all these meaningful heterosexual relationships, and then all of a sudden, he or she's just like,"No thanks, I'm actually gay". 0_o?

[Abispa]

Davie McG wrote...

I get what your saying but I don't agree when it comes to disregarding someones religious beleifs, and I'm not talking about excluding anyone from playinng the game. Just that you would decide at the begining whether you want to play as a bisexual character or a straight character or a homosexual one, just like you already decide whether to play as a white character or oriental or hispanic etc.

It's called role playing for a reason. If you go through a game with s/s LI and only choose those of the opposite gender then you have made Shepard's heterosexuality a meaningful characteristic of your Shepard. Some players, including my GF, like to check out all the LIs before she decides who she'll hook her hero up with and doesn't blindly choose it based on gender. I myself do not play s/s romances often in my "official" games (I usually do those on my "completist games"), but I decided to have one of my female Shepards hook up with Liara.

Choosing a race for a Shepard HAS to be done before the game is started because you have to look at your Shepard's face almost immediately.