708 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I should probably add what I said to Marshall lulz to what I said about the uh...council.

[Golden Owl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Seboist wrote...
It's just like America being the dominant power and funding democratic movements the world over or the Soviet Union supporting communist movements abroad.

It's not a manifest destiny like expansion at the expense of others.

Hmmm...I'm going to have to take the time to think on this one....I'm not sure if I'm seeing your point...so stepping back and considering it for a while....will let you know if I'm still lost or getting the reference later.

He is refering to Hegemonic stability theory, specifically the "second face of hegemony". As in, the passive ability of a superpower to spread its influence, via economic, cultural and political incentives, without actual use of force.

I do realize that...it's the paragon choice he suggested in relation to this that I am working on.

[marshalleck]

Seboist wrote...

Because the old council was an instrument in enforcing Asari,Turian and Salarian dominance on the rest of the galaxy. Which is why it's hilarious to see some Paragons thinking it's some benelovent entity that just wants peace and harmony.

Well to be fair to those paragons, they aren't entirely wrong. The old Council does want peace and harmony...for turians, salarians, and asari. They're happy to watch the galaxy burn down around them as long as none of their colonies or homeworlds are under threat.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

marshalleck wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Because the old council was an instrument in enforcing Asari,Turian and Salarian dominance on the rest of the galaxy. Which is why it's hilarious to see some Paragons thinking it's some benelovent entity that just wants peace and harmony.

Well to be fair to those paragons, they aren't entirely wrong. The old Council does want peace and harmony...for turians, salarians, and asari. They're happy to watch the galaxy burn down around them as long as none of their colonies or homeworlds are under threat.

"Every tyrant who has ever lived has beleived in freedom-for himself."


:ph34r:Edit: for accuracy.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 17 août 2011 - 03:25 .

[Aaleel]

The funniest thing about this conversation is that if I remember the game correctly, the choice is to bring the alliance fleet in right away to save the DA or to WAIT and bring them in at a later time once the arms open.

If you really had only mere moments to take down Soveriegn it wouldn't matter.

Point is, you guys have the decision wrong in and of itself. The decision is not whether to send the fleet after Soveriegn or to save to council. It's whether to sacrifice human lives on the DA, instead of saving the reinforcements for when you open the arms and attack Soveriegn.

By the time you save the DA, the arms are just then opening far enough for you to go in.

Modifié par Aaleel, 17 août 2011 - 03:26 .

[Golden Owl]

Logical Escape wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Seboist has very good points....Myself, personally, I would best like to see an all species council...the meglomanic three is a cr*ppy set up, though an all human led is just as cr*ppy....All should be on the council....but that option so far has manifested.

Killing the Rachni should play in favor of the Renegade in the eyes of the Krogan...Paragon is being meta loved on that point with BW.

High renegade can result in more respect from the Krogan already.  Choosing the renegade option of headbutting gatatog uvenk earns you respect from the shaman.  Obviously a warrior culture like the Krogan would value renegade over paragon characters.

True...that is why I would like to see more of that come into play with Sheps dealings with his squad.

[marshalleck]

Aaleel wrote...

The funniest thing about this conversation is that if I remember the game correctly, the choice is to bring the alliance fleet in right away to save the DA or to WAIT and bring them in at a later time once the arms open.

If you really had only mere moments to take down Soveriegn it wouldn't matter.

Point is, you guys have the decision wrong in and of itself. The decision is not whether to send the fleet after Soveriegn or to save to council. It's whether to sacrifice human lives on the DA, instead of saving the reinforcements for when you open the arms and attack Soveriegn.

By the time you save the DA, the arms are just then opening far enough for you to go in.

Yes. Like I said several pages ago: it's uncertain whether the Alliance Fifth Fleet has enough firepower to bring down Sovereign. So diverting forces to fight with the geth and attempt to save the Destiny Ascension (by no means guaranteed that this is attainable, or attainable before the Citadel ward arms open) multiplies the uncertainty by reducing the resources at your disposal for accomplishing the priority mission: destroy Sovereign. 

Ergo wait for the arms to open, then bring in the cavalry directly, in full force. 

[Golden Owl]

Seboist wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Come to think of it the sacrifice the council decision should actually have humanity/Shepard gain favor with some alien species. I could see the non-citadel species like the Quarians,Krogan and Batarians being delighted to see them gone or at the very least I don't see why they would shed any tears over them

Killing the Rachni Queen and the Council should have made Shepard a hero in the eyes of the Krogan.

If you were to pursue things solely from a meta-logical point of view, krogan should welcome a new rachni invasion.  The other sentient races would have no choice but to call on them again, and undo the effects of the genophage so the krogan can kick more rachni ass.

Seboist has very good points....Myself, personally, I would best like to see an all species council...the meglomanic three is a cr*ppy set up, though an all human led is just as cr*ppy....All should be on the council....but that option so far has manifested.

Killing the Rachni should play in favor of the Renegade in the eyes of the Krogan...Paragon is being meta loved on that point with BW.

It's good to see a clear thinking paragon that recognizes what the old council really is!

If it were up to me the new council would consist of Human,Krogan,Vorcha,Quarian and Geth. :happy:

LOL........That not all the races Seboist.

[marshalleck]

Golden Owl wrote...

LOL........That not all the races Seboist.

It's all the races that will align with a human-spearheaded new galactic order 

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

marshalleck wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

LOL........That not all the races Seboist.

It's all the races that would most likely align with a human-spearheaded new galactic order 

Ahhhh yeeeeah, hire my own squad of krogan bodyguards.

[Sharn01]

marshalleck wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

The funniest thing about this conversation is that if I remember the game correctly, the choice is to bring the alliance fleet in right away to save the DA or to WAIT and bring them in at a later time once the arms open.

If you really had only mere moments to take down Soveriegn it wouldn't matter.

Point is, you guys have the decision wrong in and of itself. The decision is not whether to send the fleet after Soveriegn or to save to council. It's whether to sacrifice human lives on the DA, instead of saving the reinforcements for when you open the arms and attack Soveriegn.

By the time you save the DA, the arms are just then opening far enough for you to go in.

Yes. Like I said several pages ago: it's uncertain whether the Alliance Fifth Fleet has enough firepower to bring down Sovereign. So diverting forces to fight with the geth and attempt to save the Destiny Ascension (by no means guaranteed that this is attainable, or attainable before the Citadel ward arms open) multiplies the uncertainty by reducing the resources at your disposal for accomplishing the priority mission: destroy Sovereign. 

Ergo wait for the arms to open, then bring in the cavalry directly, in full force. 

Of course from a strategic standpoint, it would be better to engage the geth while they where fighting another target and flank them, rather then wait for them to finish off all your allies and then hope you can fly past them unmolested after they have finished decimating them.

The military I served in didnt leave people do die if they didnt have to, they in fact trained people for the sole purpose of deadly rescue missions.  Risking lives to save allies is not the same thing as sarcraficing lives to save allies.

[Golden Owl]

marshalleck wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

LOL........That not all the races Seboist.

It's all the races that will align with a human-spearheaded new galactic order 

Vorcha?....

[Aaleel]

marshalleck wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

The funniest thing about this conversation is that if I remember the game correctly, the choice is to bring the alliance fleet in right away to save the DA or to WAIT and bring them in at a later time once the arms open.

If you really had only mere moments to take down Soveriegn it wouldn't matter.

Point is, you guys have the decision wrong in and of itself. The decision is not whether to send the fleet after Soveriegn or to save to council. It's whether to sacrifice human lives on the DA, instead of saving the reinforcements for when you open the arms and attack Soveriegn.

By the time you save the DA, the arms are just then opening far enough for you to go in.

Yes. Like I said several pages ago: it's uncertain whether the Alliance Fifth Fleet has enough firepower to bring down Sovereign. So diverting forces to fight with the geth and attempt to save the Destiny Ascension (by no means guaranteed that this is attainable, or attainable before the Citadel ward arms open) multiplies the uncertainty by reducing the resources at your disposal for accomplishing the priority mission: destroy Sovereign. 

Ergo wait for the arms to open, then bring in the cavalry directly, in full force. 

I was really responding to the posts that said you had mere minutes before the reapers came pouring through, so you had to go after Soveriegn and not help the council, when dealing with Soveriegn was not even an option at the time.  It was come in or wait.

[Seboist]

Golden Owl wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

LOL........That not all the races Seboist.

It's all the races that will align with a human-spearheaded new galactic order 

Vorcha?....

In exchange for a greater standard of living the Vorcha would happily become a human client race. There's no question about it.

[Kaiser Shepard]

I love how you guys don't see how the quarians will eventually stab us in the back... or destroy themselves, again.

[marshalleck]

Sharn01 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

The funniest thing about this conversation is that if I remember the game correctly, the choice is to bring the alliance fleet in right away to save the DA or to WAIT and bring them in at a later time once the arms open.

If you really had only mere moments to take down Soveriegn it wouldn't matter.

Point is, you guys have the decision wrong in and of itself. The decision is not whether to send the fleet after Soveriegn or to save to council. It's whether to sacrifice human lives on the DA, instead of saving the reinforcements for when you open the arms and attack Soveriegn.

By the time you save the DA, the arms are just then opening far enough for you to go in.

Yes. Like I said several pages ago: it's uncertain whether the Alliance Fifth Fleet has enough firepower to bring down Sovereign. So diverting forces to fight with the geth and attempt to save the Destiny Ascension (by no means guaranteed that this is attainable, or attainable before the Citadel ward arms open) multiplies the uncertainty by reducing the resources at your disposal for accomplishing the priority mission: destroy Sovereign. 

Ergo wait for the arms to open, then bring in the cavalry directly, in full force. 

Of course from a strategic standpoint, it would be better to engage the geth while they where fighting another target and flank them, rather then wait for them to finish off all your allies and then hope you can fly past them unmolested after they have finished decimating them.

Perhaps, but it's not something that was presented in the game, and at any rate, by doing that you're already committing to casualties you can't afford if the ultimate goal is to bring down Sovereign ASAP and you don't know if the fleet even at full strength will be enough. 

There's no guarantee that your engagement with the geth would be concluded by the time Sovereign becomes available as a target, so you'd have your forces divided and mixed anyways...I still say it's best to hold back and then proceed directly to Sovereign en masse.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 03:44 .

[Warlocomotf]

Saving Council decision:


edit: nvm

Modifié par Warlocomotf, 17 août 2011 - 03:48 .

[Sharn01]

marshalleck wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

The funniest thing about this conversation is that if I remember the game correctly, the choice is to bring the alliance fleet in right away to save the DA or to WAIT and bring them in at a later time once the arms open.

If you really had only mere moments to take down Soveriegn it wouldn't matter.

Point is, you guys have the decision wrong in and of itself. The decision is not whether to send the fleet after Soveriegn or to save to council. It's whether to sacrifice human lives on the DA, instead of saving the reinforcements for when you open the arms and attack Soveriegn.

By the time you save the DA, the arms are just then opening far enough for you to go in.

Yes. Like I said several pages ago: it's uncertain whether the Alliance Fifth Fleet has enough firepower to bring down Sovereign. So diverting forces to fight with the geth and attempt to save the Destiny Ascension (by no means guaranteed that this is attainable, or attainable before the Citadel ward arms open) multiplies the uncertainty by reducing the resources at your disposal for accomplishing the priority mission: destroy Sovereign. 

Ergo wait for the arms to open, then bring in the cavalry directly, in full force. 

Of course from a strategic standpoint, it would be better to engage the geth while they where fighting another target and flank them, rather then wait for them to finish off all your allies and then hope you can fly past them unmolested after they have finished decimating them.

Perhaps, but it's not something that was presented in the game, and at any rate, by doing that you're already committing to casualties you can't afford if the ultimate goal is to bring down Sovereign ASAP and you don't know if the fleet even at full strength will be enough. 

There's no guarantee that your engagement with the geth would be concluded by the time Sovereign becomes available as a target, so you'd have your forces divided and mixed anyways...I still say it's best to hold back and then proceed directly to Sovereign en masse.

I am not saying either choice is right or wrong, even the renegade let them die isnt if that is the way you want to play the game.  However many points made by both sides of this argument and many others calls for speculation on the part of the player, you cant ignore speculation when it suits your argument to do so and then use it a moment later when it does.  Well, you can, but anyone with half a brain will start to notice a pattern after a while.

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

There's no guarantee that your engagement with the geth would be concluded by the time Sovereign becomes available as a target, so you'd have your forces divided and mixed anyways...I still say it's best to hold back and then proceed directly to Sovereign en masse.

There's no guarantee that the Geth won't finish off the DA and then casually stroll over to attack you from behind while you focus on Sovereign. Putting some forces on the Geth is not a stategically horrible move.

When you leave the council to die you basically just float past the Geth doing nothing, while there's not a whole lot of reason why you shouldn't be shooting them while you pass by them.

[drakmoor]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I think his shields overloading once the Saren avatar was destroyed was pure coincidence. After all there are no other examples of Reaper avatars causing a problem for the Reaper once they are destroyed. We killed Harbringer's avatars dozens of times and when the Grayson avatar died there was no indication it caused the Reapers any trouble.

I was under the impression given the codex and the final scene of ME2 that the collector general was the only true avatar and was used as an intermediary to interface with the drones, thus preventing the overload. Also as Grayson is lying there bleeding out the Reapers release him before Kai double taps him, again preventing overload.

[Golden Owl]

Seboist wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

LOL........That not all the races Seboist.

It's all the races that will align with a human-spearheaded new galactic order 

Vorcha?....

In exchange for a greater standard of living the Vorcha would happily become a human client race. There's no question about it.

Not sure if their smart enough

[Seboist]

Golden Owl wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

LOL........That not all the races Seboist.

It's all the races that will align with a human-spearheaded new galactic order 

Vorcha?....

In exchange for a greater standard of living the Vorcha would happily become a human client race. There's no question about it.

Not sure if their smart enough

That's sounds like a non-paragon bigoted comment!

And the Vorcha are far smarter than what most give them credit for. They run a liquor distillery that exports to Matriach Aethyta's bar, compete in galatic sports leagues, act as intelligence operatives for the Shadow Broker and helped rebuild a Hanar colony.

We'll have a Human/Vorcha partnership just like the Hanar do with the Drell. You'll see.

[Fishy]

Paragon is more the diplomatic type while renegade is more the  'It's time to kick ass and chew the bubble' .
Also human sacrificing their lifes to save the council . They saved 10,000 CIVIL . It's not what soldier are supposed to do?

Modifié par Suprez30, 17 août 2011 - 04:03 .

[aquamutt]

i think this thread can be summed up by saying

the right thing to do and the smart thing to do rarely go hand and hand