708 réponses à ce sujet

[Jademoon121]

In my views, Paragon is diplomatic. Paragons follow the rules, they believe in an intergalactic community where everyone benefits, they believe in second-chances, and they believe in a code of honor. Compassionate unity is strength.

Renegade is Active. They get the job done no matter what, even if it means having humanity steering the galatic community. Force, non-compromising, no mercy to those who oppose. To them, the Citadel Council is just prettied up red-tape; useless and ineffective. Instead of words, you need to go out there, and cut the tumor no matter the cost. Unerring determination is strength.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 17 août 2011 - 04:07 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

aquamutt wrote...

i think this thread can be summed up by saying

the right thing to do and the smart thing to do rarely go hand and hand

The smart thing to do, is having the appearance that you want to do the right thing and portraying the decisions you take that way.

Hence why my character is a paragade.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 04:36 .

[Golden Owl]

Seboist wrote...


That's sounds like a non-paragon bigoted comment!

Owl: LMAO......So sue this paragon *ss of mine...

And the Vorcha are far smarter than what most give them credit for. They run a liquor distillery that exports to Matriach Aethyta's bar, compete in galatic sports leagues, act as intelligence operatives for the Shadow Broker and helped rebuild a Hanar colony.

Owl: I honestly didn't know that...



We'll have a Human/Vorcha partnership just like the Hanar do with the Drell. You'll see.

Owl: I think I would prefer the Drell.......I honestly don't know what that would say about humanity if Vorcha are our guys....

Modifié par Golden Owl, 17 août 2011 - 04:15 .

[Sharn01]

aquamutt wrote...

i think this thread can be summed up by saying

the right thing to do and the smart thing to do rarely go hand and hand

Not neccesarily, to use a real world example, insurance companies spend millions of dollars to prevent fraud, the investigators dont always catch all examples of fraud, and often deny benefits to people who legitimately deserve them.  In a perfect world, where there was no dishonesty, there would be no need for so much money to be spent to prevent money from being paid to fraudulent claims, because there wouldnt be any fraudulent claims.

People making bad decisions based on greed and the smart thing to do begets a viscious and never ending cycle of more money being spent and wasted needlessly, if everyone made the right and moral decision, this would never happen.  It is of course an impossible situation, there will always be greedy people who abuse the system. 

Its just an example of why the right decision is not in and of its self stupid.  It only becomes stupid when you assume that others will take advantage of your kindness, its unforunate that kindness is often reciprocated with greedy people willing to take advantage of it.  I still dont believe that extending a hand of kindness is always the wrong choice.

Modifié par Sharn01, 17 août 2011 - 04:18 .

[KotorEffect3]

I get annoyed when renegades proclaim they are more logical and practical.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Offtopic: Kuhnigut what is your avatar from,I swear I've seen that guy before.

Sebo will cry himself to death if he doesn't get any vorcha allies. No amount of debate will change his mind about the vorcha.

[KotorEffect3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I get annoyed when renegades proclaim they are more logical and practical.

The truth hurts, huh?

I love how you act as if your opinion is fact.  BTW I have done renegade playthroughs have you ever done a paragon playthrough?

[Logical Escape]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I get annoyed when renegades proclaim they are more logical and practical.

The truth hurts, huh?

How is it the truth?  Take the much debated council situation in ME1: the paragon option is to the try to rescue the DA.  The neutral option is to focus on Sovereign.  The Renegade option is to let the council die.  The latter two ends up having the same result, but if we were to look at things from a purely meta-results based viewpoint, the paragon answer resulted in the death of sovereign and sparing of thousands of innocent lives.

The difference between the neutral option and the renegade option is intent.  The neutral option ignores the council because they made the logical decision that Sovereign is the bigger threat.  The renegade option is you waving a big middle finger to the council.  Sounds to me like the neutral option is the more "logical and practical," it doesn't let anger and emotion dictate how you respond.

[Sharn01]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Offtopic: Kuhnigut what is your avatar from,I swear I've seen that guy before.

Sebo will cry himself to death if he doesn't get any vorcha allies. No amount of debate will change his mind about the vorcha.

Did you mean KnightofPhoenix avatar.  If you did its David Xanatos from the Gargoyles cartoons, still wishing they would release the rest on DVD, its one of the few things I can watch with my kids that I enjoy as much as they do.

[drakmoor]

Saphra Deden wrote...

drakmoor wrote...

I was under the impression given the codex and the final scene of ME2 that the collector general was the only true avatar and was used as an intermediary to interface with the drones, thus preventing the overload. Also as Grayson is lying there bleeding out the Reapers release him before Kai double taps him, again preventing overload.

So why didn't Sovereign release control as the Saren-thing was dying? It didn't die instantly. It flopped around on the groudn and started disintegrating.

Death throes maybe and the pain was cause too much of interference to release control?
Though I agree with you that as soon as it became clear that Shepard was
going to win Sovereign should of "released control." Maybe its situation
was so desperate it needed to fight on or maybe it was huberis...

What you are suggesting is totally possible, but I don't think it's anywhere near a certainty. Regardless, it wouldn't really change the debate anyway.

Yes it is pure speculation and maybe off base. True it really isn't relevant to the debate, I agree that focusing on Sovereign is the soundest tactical option. Saving the council is only worth it so Councilor Air Quotes gets his comeuppance in ME3.

[Warlocomotf]

I frankly find the Paragon option a lot more solid. You spend 15 seconds cleaning up the Geth and with that you save ten thousand lives + you avoid getting bum rushed when attacking Sovereign.

[Kaiser Shepard]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I get annoyed when renegades proclaim they are more logical and practical.

I get annoyed when paragons claim the moral high ground whenever they're losing a discussion.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 17 août 2011 - 04:32 .

[Sharn01]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I love how you act as if your opinion is fact.

That's because it is

http://pbskids.org/a.../factsopinions/

[Seboist]

Golden Owl wrote...

Seboist wrote...


That's sounds like a non-paragon bigoted comment!

Owl: LMAO......So sue this paragon *ss of mine...

And the Vorcha are far smarter than what most give them credit for. They run a liquor distillery that exports to Matriach Aethyta's bar, compete in galatic sports leagues, act as intelligence operatives for the Shadow Broker and helped rebuild a Hanar colony.

Owl: I honestly didn't know that...



We'll have a Human/Vorcha partnership just like the Hanar do with the Drell. You'll see.

Owl: I think I would prefer the Drell.......I honestly don't know what that would say about humanity if Vorcha are our guys....

The "mystery drink" in Aethyta's bar is what their distillery makes. That's my Shepard's favorite drink there...:happy:

The other two stories are from Cerberus Daily News.

11/08/2010 - Private League Athletes Endure Severe Effects From Drug Use

“Published today: the results of a long-term study on the effects of
performance-enhancing drugs and technology on athletes in
privately-owned sporting leagues like the Galactic Football League and
Universal Rugby Association. The results were released after being held
up in legal tangles for the better part of a decade: athletes who
participate in these private leagues, known for casual use of banned
substances, pay a dear price for a shot at galactic fame and fortune.
The report details effects that include toxic levels of carcinogens,
abnormal brain chemistry, sterility, and significantly shorter life
spans. No species is immune; even krogan and vorcha players displayed
debilitative symptoms.”

http://masseffect.wi...-_November_2010

03/22/2010 - Reconstruction Begins on Comet-Devastated Belan

“It has been one Belanese month [six Earth weeks], since the comet
Kingu caused devastating tides that killed over a million Belanese. Now,
with the water drained wherever it can be drained, the rebuilding
starts. This planet has never seen so many humans, salarians, and
vorcha. Migrant workers are a common sight; so are the charity
volunteers and religious groups. The turian government and its
scientists are daily targets of hatred and blame for not doing more to
stop Kingu. Citadel Emergency Services estimates the refugee count is
over four million displaced, either moving inland or to flotation cities
and other planets, or waiting in temporary housing for new habitats to
be built. Normalcy may eventually come, but it still feels distant.”

http://masseffect.wi...ws_-_March_2010

The Vorcha are good people.

[Jademoon121]

I think they're both equally flawed and have moments of pretentiousness. I just play paragon since I've always been more diplomatic.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I love how you act as if your opinion is fact.

That's because it is.

Ha....hahahahaha.

That explains alot.


So much for rational and logical. Way to throw away the tiny iota of credibility you had,can't even distinguish fact from opinion.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 17 août 2011 - 04:32 .

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So why didn't Sovereign release control as the Saren-thing was dying? It didn't die instantly. It flopped around on the groudn and started disintegrating.

Actually, I have always wondered why Sovereign does that is the first place....why take dead Saren over when it ultimately weakens Sovereigns position?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

@Seboist I actually kind of agree with you on the vorcha thing, I'm never given any reason to like them,but I'M not given any reason to dislike them (aside from the whole blood pack thing,and that really doesn't count)

Bring on friendly vorcha,just keep them away from Grunt,I don't need vorcha bits everywhere.

[marshalleck]

Logical Escape wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I get annoyed when renegades proclaim they are more logical and practical.

The truth hurts, huh?

How is it the truth?  Take the much debated council situation in ME1: the paragon option is to the try to rescue the DA.  The neutral option is to focus on Sovereign.  The Renegade option is to let the council die.  The latter two ends up having the same result, but if we were to look at things from a purely meta-results based viewpoint, the paragon answer resulted in the death of sovereign and sparing of thousands of innocent lives.

The difference between the neutral option and the renegade option is intent.  The neutral option ignores the council because they made the logical decision that Sovereign is the bigger threat.  The renegade option is you waving a big middle finger to the council.  Sounds to me like the neutral option is the more "logical and practical," it doesn't let anger and emotion dictate how you respond.

I'm renegade. All of my canon Sheps have full (or near) renegade bars. I'm not wishy-washy, half-ass, noncommittal paragade or renegon. I take the neutral Destiny Ascension decision. WHAT NOW?

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 04:33 .

[Logical Escape]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

...if we were to look at things from a purely meta-results based viewpoint, the paragon answer resulted in the death of sovereign and sparing of thousands of innocent lives.

Meta-gaming undermines the debate. We should try and avoid doing it.

That said, when I say that Renegade is more logical I mean "for the most part". There are situations where I think the Paragon path is at least equally logical or that the Renegade way is being unnecessarily callous.

Of course it undermines the argument, but your argument is equally transparent.  You argue that the renegade way produces better results.  This is obviously impossible to discern if we don't see the outcome for ourselves.

I'd just as easily argue that the neutral approach is more sound than the renegade approach.