708 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Logical Escape wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

...if we were to look at things from a purely meta-results based viewpoint, the paragon answer resulted in the death of sovereign and sparing of thousands of innocent lives.

Meta-gaming undermines the debate. We should try and avoid doing it.

That said, when I say that Renegade is more logical I mean "for the most part". There are situations where I think the Paragon path is at least equally logical or that the Renegade way is being unnecessarily callous.

Of course it undermines the argument, but your argument is equally transparent.  You argue that the renegade way produces better results.  This is obviously impossible to discern if we don't see the outcome for ourselves.

I'd just as easily argue that the neutral approach is more sound than the renegade approach.

I'd say the renegade way seeks to reduce risk.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 04:35 .

[Seboist]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@Seboist I actually kind of agree with you on the vorcha thing, I'm never given any reason to like them,but I'M not given any reason to dislike them (aside from the whole blood pack thing,and that really doesn't count)

Bring on friendly vorcha,just keep them away from Grunt,I don't need vorcha bits everywhere.

Problem with the Vorcha in ME2 is that there's no real Vorcha characters to interact with and all the details that there's more to them that what's on the surface (ex.exporting liquor to Aethyta's bar and rebuilding a hanar colony) are obscure and easily overlooked. It doesn't help that during the only mission where they where they have story significance (Mordin's recruitment) their whole motivation of trying to create a better life for themselves is quickly swept under the rug.

Hopefully things change in ME3.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Seboist wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@Seboist I actually kind of agree with you on the vorcha thing, I'm never given any reason to like them,but I'M not given any reason to dislike them (aside from the whole blood pack thing,and that really doesn't count)

Bring on friendly vorcha,just keep them away from Grunt,I don't need vorcha bits everywhere.

Problem with the Vorcha in ME2 is that there's no real Vorcha characters to interact with and all the details that there's more to them that what's on the surface (ex.exporting liquor to Aethyta's bar and rebuilding a hanar colony) are obscure and easily overlooked. It doesn't help that during the only mission where they where they have story significance (Mordin's recruitment) their whole motivation of trying to create a better life for themselves is quickly swept under the rug.

Hopefully things change in ME3.

Yeah,there is what...6 lines of dialogue with a vorcha?  3 with Shisk and 3 with the one at Mordins RM?

[Seboist]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

@Seboist I actually kind of agree with you on the vorcha thing, I'm never given any reason to like them,but I'M not given any reason to dislike them (aside from the whole blood pack thing,and that really doesn't count)

Bring on friendly vorcha,just keep them away from Grunt,I don't need vorcha bits everywhere.

Problem with the Vorcha in ME2 is that there's no real Vorcha characters to interact with and all the details that there's more to them that what's on the surface (ex.exporting liquor to Aethyta's bar and rebuilding a hanar colony) are obscure and easily overlooked. It doesn't help that during the only mission where they where they have story significance (Mordin's recruitment) their whole motivation of trying to create a better life for themselves is quickly swept under the rug.

Hopefully things change in ME3.

Yeah,there is what...6 lines of dialogue with a vorcha?  3 with Shisk and 3 with the one at Mordins RM?

Yep and they're both less of a character than the nameless merc that can be thrown out the window in Thane's mission.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It would help if the vorcha could communicate intelligently.

I can't respond to that without insulting you.

[marshalleck]

Seboist wrote...

Yep and they're both less of a character than the nameless merc that can be thrown out the window in Thane's mission.

I'm sick of this Bioware and its anti-vorcha BULLSH--

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It would help if the vorcha could communicate intelligently.

They can, just not to humans they find suspicious and irritating like Shepard.

Shisk deserves credit for being the only character with the balls to cut Shepard off in mid-sentence and give him the "i should go" treatment. Even a renegade shepard is too awestruck to do anything about it.

[Warlocomotf]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

Of course it undermines the argument, but your argument is equally transparent.  You argue that the renegade way produces better results.

No, I never once argued that. My stance is that the Renegade way has the better approach. It could fail any time and my position wouldn't change because I don't judge Renegade on what it accomplishes (or fails to accomplish), but rather on how it tries to solve problems.

Paragon is all about taking leaps of faith. It has gotten results so far, but that's not because the Paragon path is well thought out and reasoned. It succeeds on luck and nothing else (most of the time).

If a Paragon decision backfires you'll have no recourse because you willingly took a chance. The Renegade however can defend themselves, as they've been forced to do since ME3 came out, by pointing out that they made the most responsible decision they could with the information available at that time.

Renegades are generally more trusting of the Illusive man than Paragons, right?

Seeing as Cerberus attempted to kill Shepard throughout ME1, and lies to Shepard, manipulates him and holds back information through-out ME2.

I find TIM / Cerberus a rather large leap of faith. Also I find mostly any Paragon decision very easy to rationalize.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Paragon is all about taking leaps of faith. It has gotten results so far, but that's not because the Paragon path is well thought out and reasoned. It succeeds on luck and nothing else (most of the time).

Let's not forget metagaming.

Saphra Deden wrote...

It would help if the vorcha could communicate intelligently.

GAAAAAH! Talk too much! We know Zulu's tricks! We leave!

[Rockworm503]

 This is why I refuse to play the Paragon vs Renegade game.  Whatever my current shep is going to do is how I dictate my choices.  I roleplay and if one side of the spectrum gets heavier as a result then so be it but i find that its usually more even than that.

[marshalleck]

Warlocomotf wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

Of course it undermines the argument, but your argument is equally transparent.  You argue that the renegade way produces better results.

No, I never once argued that. My stance is that the Renegade way has the better approach. It could fail any time and my position wouldn't change because I don't judge Renegade on what it accomplishes (or fails to accomplish), but rather on how it tries to solve problems.

Paragon is all about taking leaps of faith. It has gotten results so far, but that's not because the Paragon path is well thought out and reasoned. It succeeds on luck and nothing else (most of the time).

If a Paragon decision backfires you'll have no recourse because you willingly took a chance. The Renegade however can defend themselves, as they've been forced to do since ME3 came out, by pointing out that they made the most responsible decision they could with the information available at that time.

Renegades are generally more trusting of the Illusive man than Paragons, right?

Seeing as Cerberus attempted to kill Shepard throughout ME1, and lies to Shepard, manipulates him and holds back information through-out ME2.

I find TIM / Cerberus a rather large leap of faith. Also I find mostly any Paragon decision very easy to rationalize.

Not in the slightest bit. I recall ****ing him out several times for playing games and using myself and my team as bait. Also told him, after saving the base, that I'm taking the fight to the Reapers and he can fall in line or get out of the way--and that him and his base better not be a problem.

See, here's the thing with the Renegade's relationship to TIM. Trust never has to factor into it at all. What matters is that they both seem to have the same goal--fighting the Reapers and defending humanity. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 04:46 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

It would help if the vorcha could communicate intelligently.

They can, just not to humans they find suspicious and irritating like Shepard.

Shisk deserves credit for being the only character with the balls to cut Shepard off in mid-sentence and give him the "i should go" treatment. Even a renegade shepard is too awestruck to do anything about it.

Shepard-"So Vorcha eh how is li-?"
Shisk-"I should go."

Priceless.

[Sharn01]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

Of course it undermines the argument, but your argument is equally transparent.  You argue that the renegade way produces better results.

No, I never once argued that. My stance is that the Renegade way has the better approach. It could fail any time and my position wouldn't change because I don't judge Renegade on what it accomplishes (or fails to accomplish), but rather on how it tries to solve problems.

Paragon is all about taking leaps of faith. It has gotten results so far, but that's not because the Paragon path is well thought out and reasoned. It succeeds on luck and nothing else (most of the time).

If a Paragon decision backfires you'll have no recourse because you willingly took a chance. The Renegade however can defend themselves, as they've been forced to do since ME3 came out, by pointing out that they made the most responsible decision they could with the information available at that time.

I would argue that there are nearly as many leaps of faith in renegade decisions as there are the paragon ones,  unforunately the logical choice is not always available as a choice. 

Look at the rachni queen decision in ME, you cant leave it caged and let the council send out a team to determine what to do with it, your choices are to kill or free it, neither is the most logical choice, and when the logical choice is completely denied to you, most people will fall back on morality.

Another good example is the collector base, you are only given the choice to give it to TIM, who you may despise and not trust at all, or blow it up, you cant give it to a third party, or even make the attempt.  Had that option been available I would have taken it, even if TIM screws me over and gets his paws on it first I would have tried it, but that option wasnt available, you could only give it solely to TIM and no one else, you couldnt even notify anyone else it exsisted.  

Modifié par Sharn01, 17 août 2011 - 04:51 .

[Seboist]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

It would help if the vorcha could communicate intelligently.

They can, just not to humans they find suspicious and irritating like Shepard.

Shisk deserves credit for being the only character with the balls to cut Shepard off in mid-sentence and give him the "i should go" treatment. Even a renegade shepard is too awestruck to do anything about it.

Shepard-"So Vorcha eh how is li-?"
Shisk-"I should go."

Priceless.

The only thing that could have made it better would have been Shisk flipping the bird while walking away.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

marshalleck wrote...

See, here's the thing with the Renegade's relationship to TIM. Trust never has to factor into it at all. What matters is that they both seem to have the same goal--fighting the Reapers and defending humanity. 

I saved the base last night and did like the neutral dialogue with him, the dialogue was interesting,but whenever I give him the base I always feel like I'm completly going against my instincts,but I guess that's why I'm not doing it in my main games.

When I first met TIM I just had rules 21 and 22 pulsing through my head the whole time.
 And when making the decision to give up the base rule 10.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 17 août 2011 - 04:55 .

[Seboist]

TIM is essentially Hackett 2.0. Back when I was doing the ME1 side missions I always got the impression Hackett knew more than what he was letting on and was manipulating my Shepard for his own ends.

[aquamutt]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

aquamutt wrote...

i think this thread can be summed up by saying

the right thing to do and the smart thing to do rarely go hand and hand

The smart thing to do, is having the appearance that you want to do the right thing and portraying the decisions you take that way.

Hence why my character is a paragade.

but you don't really care dosen't that come off  more renagade

[Xilizhra]

Beyond that I trust TIM and Cerberus because everything I've learned about their motives and goals indicates we share a mutual interest in defeating the Reapers. Cooperation benefits us both.

Given that you now want to surrender to and join the Reapers, I assume this alliance will end?

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

Not in the slightest bit. I recall ****ing him out several times for playing games and using myself and my team as bait. Also told him, after saving the base, that I'm taking the fight to the Reapers and he can fall in line or get out of the way--and that him and his base better not be a problem.

See, here's the thing with the Renegade's relationship to TIM. Trust never has to factor into it at all. What matters is that they both seem to have the same goal--fighting the Reapers and defending humanity.

I disagree that trust doesn't factor into it "at all", but point taken.

I did not save the base because of a few reasons:
1] It's advanced technology that would likely take decades to reasonably research
2] To me, there's very little reason to believe that keeping it would not be dangerous
3] The technology by and large seems to require resources that I'm not willing to invest (ie: Live humans)

Of those 3, number 2 is really my strongest reason. As an example, when you're inside the derelict reaper and listen to the audio logs. You get the bit about "Even dead gods can dream", though the collector base is not a reaper ship, it does rely heavily on reaper technology and it does contain atleast a partial reaper.

[edit] Man you edited the **** out of that post O_O

Modifié par Warlocomotf, 17 août 2011 - 04:54 .

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

Of course it undermines the argument, but your argument is equally transparent.  You argue that the renegade way produces better results.

No, I never once argued that. My stance is that the Renegade way has the better approach. It could fail any time and my position wouldn't change because I don't judge Renegade on what it accomplishes (or fails to accomplish), but rather on how it tries to solve problems.

Paragon is all about taking leaps of faith. It has gotten results so far, but that's not because the Paragon path is well thought out and reasoned. It succeeds on luck and nothing else (most of the time).

If a Paragon decision backfires you'll have no recourse because you willingly took a chance. The Renegade however can defend themselves, as they've been forced to do since ME3 came out, by pointing out that they made the most responsible decision they could with the information available at that time.

Renegades are generally more trusting of the Illusive man than Paragons, right?

Seeing as Cerberus attempted to kill Shepard throughout ME1, and lies to Shepard, manipulates him and holds back information through-out ME2.

I find TIM / Cerberus a rather large leap of faith. Also I find mostly any Paragon decision very easy to rationalize.

Not in the slightest bit. I recall ****ing him out several times for playing games and using myself and my team as bait. Also told him, after saving the base, that I'm taking the fight to the Reapers and he can fall in line or get out of the way--and that him and his base better not be a problem.

See, here's the thing with the Renegade's relationship to TIM. Trust never has to factor into it at all. What matters is that they both seem to have the same goal--fighting the Reapers and defending humanity. 

Indeed, Renegades don't trust TIM to be some buddy that will invite us over to his house for a barbeque. We "trust" that he'll do everything in his power against the Reapers and for the benefit of humanity.

[LilyasAvalon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I get annoyed when renegades proclaim they are more logical and practical.

The truth hurts, huh?

I disagree actually, a renegade is controlled just as much by his feelings and morals as a paragon does.