708 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...

Indeed, Renegades don't trust TIM to be some buddy that will invite us over to his house for a barbeque. We "trust" that he'll do everything in his power against the Reapers and for the benefit of humanity.

The benefit of humanity, or just Cerberus?

[marshalleck]

Sharn01 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

Of course it undermines the argument, but your argument is equally transparent.  You argue that the renegade way produces better results.

No, I never once argued that. My stance is that the Renegade way has the better approach. It could fail any time and my position wouldn't change because I don't judge Renegade on what it accomplishes (or fails to accomplish), but rather on how it tries to solve problems.

Paragon is all about taking leaps of faith. It has gotten results so far, but that's not because the Paragon path is well thought out and reasoned. It succeeds on luck and nothing else (most of the time).

If a Paragon decision backfires you'll have no recourse because you willingly took a chance. The Renegade however can defend themselves, as they've been forced to do since ME3 came out, by pointing out that they made the most responsible decision they could with the information available at that time.

I would argue that there are nearly as many leaps of faith in renegade decisions as there are the paragon ones,  unforunately the logical choice is not always available as a choice. 

Look at the rachni queen decision in ME, you cant leave it caged and let the council send out a team to determine what to do with it, your choices are to kill or free it, neither is the most logical choice, and when the logical choice is completely denied to you, most people will fall back on morality.

Another good example is the collector base, you are only given the choice to give it to TIM, who you may despise and not trust at all, or blow it up, you cant give it to a third party, or even make the attempt.  Had that option been available I would have taken it, even if TIM screws me over and gets his paws on it first I would have tried it, but that option wasnt available, you could only give it solely to TIM and no one else, you couldnt even notify anyone else it exsisted.  

Killing the rachni reduces risk--they were a severe threat to the galaxy millenia ago, possibly due to indoctrination (which Shepard may be able to deduce depending on when you visit Noveria). 

The base seems like an awful risk on casual inspection. Give Reaper tech to shady paramilitary organization? But the alternative is to blow it up. Now, given a preference I probably would have given it to the Alliance, but at the time the decision has to be made, TIM has supported Shepard every step of the way and done everything reasonably possible to ensure the mission's success. If you blow up the base, you have no other lead to investigate as to how to continue to fight the Reapers. It's a greater risk to destroy it and possibly lose out on our one chance to discover the Reapers' weakness, than it is to keep it and have a science team go nuts, start worshipping robo-Cthulhu, and have to be liquidated. Reapers have already been studied by Cerberus before, and admittedly it did not end well but they have more experience than anyone else in the galaxy. If you want to defeat an enemy you need to know your enemy, and a Reaper factory is one of the most direct ways to do so--and the only opportunity as yet presented. You're taking an awful risk passing that up and setting off a bomb.

[Sharn01]

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Not in the slightest bit. I recall ****ing him out several times for playing games and using myself and my team as bait. Also told him, after saving the base, that I'm taking the fight to the Reapers and he can fall in line or get out of the way--and that him and his base better not be a problem.

See, here's the thing with the Renegade's relationship to TIM. Trust never has to factor into it at all. What matters is that they both seem to have the same goal--fighting the Reapers and defending humanity.

I disagree that trust doesn't factor into it "at all", but point taken.

I did not save the base because of a few reasons:
1] It's advanced technology that would likely take decades to reasonably research
2] To me, there's very little reason to believe that keeping it would not be dangerous
3] The technology by and large seems to require resources that I'm not willing to invest (ie: Live humans)

Of those 3, number 2 is really my strongest reason. As an example, when you're inside the derelict reaper and listen to the audio logs. You get the bit about "Even dead gods can dream", though the collector base is not a reaper ship, it does rely heavily on reaper technology and it does contain atleast a partial reaper.

[edit] Man you edited the **** out of that post O_O

I really wasnt worried about the base being a threat from indoctrination, indoctrination is something we must come to understand in the long term regardless, there is no gauruntee that even if we win against the reapers it will be the last we see of them.  My main complaint is TIM and Cerberus, I think its highly unlikely that anything beneficial will come from the base in a short time frame, so your pretty much giving anything useful that may or may not come from the base to TIM to use against his enemies should there be a way to defeat the repears in the short term, which I dont think the base will help with.

[Rockworm503]

lolnoobs wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

The concept of paragon/renegade does not work if you take both to extremes, the game IS supposed to be about our own morals and shaped by our choices and decisions. It's supposed to technically be played paragade after all.

I've personally viewed renegade as doing what is deemed necessary with possibly being a bit of a hardened ****, while paragon is seeking the alternative route and being compassionate.

I don't approve of paragons being called sissy's though. What about in Overlord, when Paragon interupt let us pistol whip the scientist?

Pistol whip? WOW, HOW TOTALLY BADASS CONSIDERING HE WAS POINTING A GUN AT YOU.

A non sissy would have shot him.

F that if you don't roundhouse kick him then its not worth talking about period.

[marshalleck]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Indeed, Renegades don't trust TIM to be some buddy that will invite us over to his house for a barbeque. We "trust" that he'll do everything in his power against the Reapers and for the benefit of humanity.

The benefit of humanity, or just Cerberus?

Cerberus is humanity.

[LilyasAvalon]

marshalleck wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Indeed, Renegades don't trust TIM to be some buddy that will invite us over to his house for a barbeque. We "trust" that he'll do everything in his power against the Reapers and for the benefit of humanity.

The benefit of humanity, or just Cerberus?

Cerberus is humanity.

...I don't want to be human anymore then.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Seboist wrote...

TIM is essentially Hackett 2.0. Back when I was doing the ME1 side missions I always got the impression Hackett knew more than what he was letting on and was manipulating my Shepard for his own ends.

I recall prior to ME2 that some people suspected Hackett was a possible alter-ego for the Illusive Man. Until Arrival came out some even thought he was a Cerberus agent.

He's certainly as a ruthless as any Cerberus agent and just as willing to lie and cheat to accomplish his goals, and quite willing to manipulate Shepard.

He's also very pro-human.

It's a (in the words of Hackett) a "damn shame" they didn't make him a pro-Cerberus Alliance official. He seemed to know a lot more about the whole Akuze thing than what he was letting on during the briefing for the "missing scientists" mission.

[Logical Escape]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, I never once argued that. My stance is that the Renegade way has the better approach. It could fail any time and my position wouldn't change because I don't judge Renegade on what it accomplishes (or fails to accomplish), but rather on how it tries to solve problems.

Paragon is all about taking leaps of faith. It has gotten results so far, but that's not because the Paragon path is well thought out and reasoned. It succeeds on luck and nothing else (most of the time).

If a Paragon decision backfires you'll have no recourse because you willingly took a chance. The Renegade however can defend themselves, as they've been forced to do since ME3 came out, by pointing out that they made the most responsible decision they could with the information available at that time.

The renegade has the most direct approach, but it's not the one that considers the best solution for the future.

Is it more practical to force Veetor to go with Cerberus?  Not necessarily.  Veetor could cause trouble on the route, for you or the drop off team.  And abducting him against his will could engender distrust with the quarians, who control the largest fleet in the galaxy.  And what was the probable gain?  You already have the security footage of the attack, and he was obviously shell-shocked and half-insane anyway, it was unlikely that you would have gotten anything more illuminating out of him.

How is it more practical to spare the collector base?  Do we know if Cerberus can adequately fit the Reaper IFF (without viruses) on other ships to allow them to pilot through the Omega 4 relay?  Do we know that all collectors are defeated, or if there's another collector base somewhere?  What's to stop other collectors, if they were out there, from reaching the collector base before Cerberus?

How is it more practical to let Niftu Cal charge in and try to take out the Eclipse merc on his own?   Wouldn't it be more practical if you didn't have him announcing his (and yours) presence to everyone in the room?

How is it more practical to let Garrus take the shot on Sidonis?  Reasonably speaking, WTF was Sidonis going to keep doing?

How is it more practical to have Jack blow up Aresh?  He was simply a crazy person trapped in the past.

How is it more practical to shoot Jacob's dad as opposed to just leaving him there?  You even gave up the gun.

How is it more practical to tell Miranda to not bother to talk to Oriana at all?  Woudln't it be more practical if she knew that Miranda was looking out for her?  So if Miranda needed to come along and relocate them again, she wouldn't at least be like, "Who the f*ck are you?"

How is it more practical to destroy the genophage data as opposed to holding on to it?  What's the point of giving up findings that's already been researched?

How is it more practical to kill Samara and recruit Morinth?  Morinth is a danger to everyone she comes in contact with, and worse, could seduce and kill Shepard on the mission.

How is it more practical to hand over the evidence that Tali's father was experimenting on geth?  I'm sure a less loyal party member is more practical.

How is it more practical to be an **** to your crew and companions?  I'm sure if they don't like you, they'll help you out more, right?

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Indeed, Renegades don't trust TIM to be some buddy that will invite us over to his house for a barbeque. We "trust" that he'll do everything in his power against the Reapers and for the benefit of humanity.

The benefit of humanity, or just Cerberus?

Cerberus is humanity.

Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Great, I got both the responses I was gunning for. I can now go to bed with peace of mind.

Night, guys!

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Seboist wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Indeed, Renegades don't trust TIM to be some buddy that will invite us over to his house for a barbeque. We "trust" that he'll do everything in his power against the Reapers and for the benefit of humanity.

The benefit of humanity, or just Cerberus?

Cerberus is humanity.

Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human.

I won't let fear comprimise who I am.



C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!11!!!!!111!!

[Massadonious1]

I'm pretty sure Cerberus wouldn't hesitate to "subjugate" any human that would present issues with their marching orders.

The Pope of this time period felt their "strength" alright. With a bullet to his head.

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

Killing the rachni reduces risk--they were a severe threat to the galaxy millenia ago, possibly due to indoctrination (which Shepard may be able to deduce depending on when you visit Noveria). 

The base seems like an awful risk on casual inspection. Give Reaper tech to shady paramilitary organization? But the alternative is to blow it up. Now, given a preference I probably would have given it to the Alliance, but at the time the decision has to be made, TIM has supported Shepard every step of the way and done everything reasonably possible to ensure the mission's success. If you blow up the base, you have no other lead to investigate as to how to continue to fight the Reapers. It's a greater risk to destroy it and possibly lose out on our one chance to discover the Reapers' weakness, than it is to keep it and have a science team go nuts, start worshipping robo-Cthulhu, and have to be liquidated. Reapers have already been studied by Cerberus before, and admittedly it did not end well but they have more experience than anyone else in the galaxy. If you want to defeat an enemy you need to know your enemy, and a Reaper factory is one of the most direct ways to do so--and the only opportunity as yet presented. You're taking an awful risk passing that up and setting off a bomb.

You presume you can adequately research it between that time and the reapers arrival- I very much doubt that. I also doubt that it would be an easy task to execute the "scientists gone rogue", it's a big place- you would've most likely sent in over a hundred scientists to have any chance of covering a non-negliable part of the station.

Who knows what the indoctrinated scientists would than proceed to do- perhaps they'd mobilize the station, perhaps activate weapon systems.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Off-topic,playing the SM right meow,awwww yeeeah.

[Saaziel]

marshalleck wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Indeed, Renegades don't trust TIM to be some buddy that will invite us over to his house for a barbeque. We "trust" that he'll do everything in his power against the Reapers and for the benefit of humanity.

The benefit of humanity, or just Cerberus?

Cerberus is humanity.

Tell that to the Reaper, would make their job a lot easier.

[Seboist]

Massadonious1 wrote...

I'm pretty sure Cerberus wouldn't hesitate to "subjugate" any human that would present issues with their marching orders.

The Pope of this time period felt their "strength" alright. With a bullet to his head.

He died from old age and heart failure.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Why would you kill the pope man?

[marshalleck]

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Killing the rachni reduces risk--they were a severe threat to the galaxy millenia ago, possibly due to indoctrination (which Shepard may be able to deduce depending on when you visit Noveria). 

The base seems like an awful risk on casual inspection. Give Reaper tech to shady paramilitary organization? But the alternative is to blow it up. Now, given a preference I probably would have given it to the Alliance, but at the time the decision has to be made, TIM has supported Shepard every step of the way and done everything reasonably possible to ensure the mission's success. If you blow up the base, you have no other lead to investigate as to how to continue to fight the Reapers. It's a greater risk to destroy it and possibly lose out on our one chance to discover the Reapers' weakness, than it is to keep it and have a science team go nuts, start worshipping robo-Cthulhu, and have to be liquidated. Reapers have already been studied by Cerberus before, and admittedly it did not end well but they have more experience than anyone else in the galaxy. If you want to defeat an enemy you need to know your enemy, and a Reaper factory is one of the most direct ways to do so--and the only opportunity as yet presented. You're taking an awful risk passing that up and setting off a bomb.

You presume you can adequately research it between that time and the reapers arrival- I very much doubt that. I also doubt that it would be an easy task to execute the "scientists gone rogue", it's a big place- you would've most likely sent in over a hundred scientists to have any chance of covering a non-negliable part of the station.

Who knows what the indoctrinated scientists would than proceed to do- perhaps they'd mobilize the station, perhaps activate weapon systems.

And you presume you'll ever again have an opportunity to study just what exactly the Reapers are, how they work, any potential weaknesses, etc. Or access the vast databases of genetic research done by the Collectors. 

So you blow up the base. Great. Now what's your plan?

[Logical Escape]

HomelessGal wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...
  Do we know if Cerberus can adequately fit the Reaper IFF (without viruses) on other ships to allow them to pilot through the Omega 4 relay?

We do; they're making regular trips through the Omega-4 Relay in Retribution and Invasion.

Yes, we know NOW, but did we know at the time that we were making the decision of whether or not to blow up the base?  If we were to remove all 'meta-knowledge', we have to operate under the assumption that the Reaper IFF, which caused so much trouble for the Normandy to install (not to mention was apparently the only one out there) still led the Normany into a debris field where they narrowly avoided certain death.

[Seboist]

HomelessGal wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...
  Do we know if Cerberus can adequately fit the Reaper IFF (without viruses) on other ships to allow them to pilot through the Omega 4 relay?

We do; they're making regular trips through the Omega-4 Relay in Retribution and Invasion.

Cerberus ships can also be seen going through the relay in the "Shepard dies/base saved" ending.

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...


Actually, I have always wondered why Sovereign does that is the first place....why take dead Saren over when it ultimately weakens Sovereigns position?

How does it weaken Sovereign? Taking over Saren was a chance to kill Shepard, presumably interrupting his control of the station faster. Sovereign was under a lot of pressure at this point.

Sovereigns shields seem almost impenetrable...war ships guns seeming not to make so much as a dent....but Sheps pea shooters can break through Sarens shields...Saren seems more of a weakness than a strength to Sovereign at this point....as once Saren's resurrected body is destroyed, so too are Sovereigns shields.

[marshalleck]

Logical Escape wrote...

HomelessGal wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...
  Do we know if Cerberus can adequately fit the Reaper IFF (without viruses) on other ships to allow them to pilot through the Omega 4 relay?

We do; they're making regular trips through the Omega-4 Relay in Retribution and Invasion.

Yes, we know NOW, but did we know at the time that we were making the decision of whether or not to blow up the base?  If we were to remove all 'meta-knowledge', we have to operate under the assumption that the Reaper IFF, which caused so much trouble for the Normandy to install (not to mention was apparently the only one out there) still led the Normany into a debris field where they narrowly avoided certain death.

We already knew Cerberus had identified and been working to reverse engineer the IFF. That's why TIM sent you to the derelict Reaper in the first place.