708 réponses à ce sujet

[mauro2222]

Luc0s wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Because pro-human is selfish and renegade is selfish.

It's not complicated.

What's selfish about wanting to keep humanity strong and independant?

There is nothing selfish about wanting to keep humanity strong and independent. But wanting to keep humanity strong and independent over the backs of other alien species is completely selfish, which is what Cerberus and renegade-Shepard stands for.

Renegade-Shep isn't simply about being pro-human, it's about being pro-human at all cost, even when that means other alien species will have to suffer for it.

Paragon-Shep is more like a socialist, wanting to keep everyone and everything equal. Para-Shep is all about everyone getting their fair share, if you get what I mean.


However, having played both Paragon and Renegade, I can also safely say that Renegade wants to be independent (which is why pro-human = renegade) while Parafon tries to build an alliance between humanity and the other species.

[marshalleck]

Logical Escape wrote...

So you study the collector base.  What's your guarantee that you'll find anything useful?

Furthermore, what's your guarantee that you can trust the illusive man?  Shepard himself asks, how do you know he's not going to build a reaper of his own?

No answer?

There is no *guarantee* that studying the base will turn up anything useful, however, it seems incredibly likely considering it's a Reaper factory. 

As for TIM, I already addressed that much earlier.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 06:34 .

[Warlocomotf]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

Council decision:  Neutral > Renegade.

True, but the Renegade decision is still better than the Paragon one. Even if minimizing risk isn't the main point it is still a factor that is brought up to justify it.

I strongly disagree.

The renegade (and neutral) decision both casually stroll past the Geth whilst doing absolutely nothing. Then go on to attack Sovreign- very much open to attacks from behind.

The Paragon option wastes next to no time decimating the geth as they pass by them, save many thousand lives and reach Sovreign with very little delay and no more risk of getting attacked from behind. If time here had been anywhere near as crucial as it's made out to be, Shepard would have been in much more of a hurry after he killed Saren (or talked him into suicide).

[marshalleck]

Warlocomotf wrote...

The Paragon option wastes next to no time decimating the geth as they pass by them, save many thousand lives and reach Sovreign with very little delay and no more risk of getting attacked from behind. If time here had been anywhere near as crucial as it's made out to be, Shepard would have been in much more of a hurry after he killed Saren (or talked him into suicide).

Meta-gaming. Before you make that decision you have no idea how it will turn out.

[Logical Escape]

Saphra Deden wrote...

True, but the Renegade decision is still better than the Paragon one. Even if minimizing risk isn't the main point it is still a factor that is brought up to justify it.

Questionable.  From a results perspective, the paragon result was better.  From a decision-making perspective, the renegade choice was safer.

If you want to argue that the renegade choice was SAFER in that one instance, then sure.  But it's not universal

Saphra Deden wrote...

Now you're meta-gaming.

The rachni could be an ally.  This much is known at the time of the decision.  Furthermore, it's unlikely that one rachni queen would be a significant danger in the timescale of the reaper invasion.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Way to miss the point. My goal is to get information on the Collectors, not recruit the quarians.

You're goal is to STOP the collectors (AND the reapers).  Alienating the quarians does not help you.  In fact, it could hinder you.

You keep missing my point.  The odds of getting any extra information is exceedingly low.  You already have the security footage.  What information could you reasonably expect Veetor to provide?

Saphra Deden wrote...

As it relates to the Reapers, yes. We have all the knowledge we need concerning the krogan.

No you don't.  Even Mordin acknowledges that Maelon's research would require decades to reacquire.

Saphra Deden wrote...

How do you know?

Knowing that one of your admirals farmed geth and the geth attacked and killed him is not a means of engendering an agreement between geth and quarian sides.

And again.  You avoid the point because you have response.  Tali's disloyalty has immediate, negative repercussions in the suicide mission.  You know that she aked you not to use it.  Why would you choose to go that route?  What's logical or risk minimizing about this?

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yeah they do.

Why?

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

The Paragon option wastes next to no time decimating the geth as they pass by them, save many thousand lives and reach Sovreign with very little delay and no more risk of getting attacked from behind. If time here had been anywhere near as crucial as it's made out to be, Shepard would have been in much more of a hurry after he killed Saren (or talked him into suicide).

Meta-gaming. Before you make that decision you have no idea how it will turn out.

If there had been a (too) large amount of Geth- or time appeared to be running short, it would be fair to assume Joker would radio Shepard- or Shepard would radio Joker.

Mind you, the Destiny Ascension is the most powerful ship in Citadel space, and you've received not a huge amount of information about this ship- it is also meta gaming to presume that the Destiny Ascension- once saved, would not be useful.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Logical Escape wrote...


You keep missing my point.  The odds of getting any extra information is exceedingly low.  You already have the security footage.  What information could you reasonably expect Veetor to provide?

It wouldn't be Cerberus if they didn't take it too far.

[Warlocomotf]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

Questionable.  From a results perspective, the paragon result was better.  From a decision-making perspective, the renegade choice was safer.

You meta-gaming fool!

I'm done arguing with you.

You're cherrypicking arguments that you have a counter argument for and disregarding all others.

[Arppis]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

Questionable.  From a results perspective, the paragon result was better.  From a decision-making perspective, the renegade choice was safer.

You meta-gaming fool!

I'm done arguing with you.

You should go outside and take a few deep breaths. No use getting worked up over anything people say here.

HomelessGal wrote...

Shep accusing TIM of wanting to make
his own Reaper always struck me as one of the strangest lines of the
game. It just seems to come completely out of left-field; they did just
find the human Reaper, but why is that the first conclusion Shep jumps
to?

I think he was just saying that like: "Next thing I know, you want to build your own reaper.". So it wasn't accusing him of it, it was just some speculative example.

Modifié par Arppis, 17 août 2011 - 06:45 .

[marshalleck]

Logical Escape wrote...

The rachni could be an ally.  This much is known at the time of the decision.  Furthermore, it's unlikely that one rachni queen would be a significant danger in the timescale of the reaper invasion.

Actually, the rachni are well-known for their fecundity. A single queen can have a mature brood in either weeks or months. Given years, they could substantially repopulate.

[Logical Escape]

marshalleck wrote...

No answer?

There is no *guarantee* that studying the base will turn up anything useful, however, it seems incredibly likely considering it's a Reaper factory.

Your logic depends on several premises:

1.) That sparing the collector base is less risk than blowing it up.

I've already addressed how this might not be the case.  Between risk of indoctrination, uncertainty of the Omega 4 relay, the debris field around the collector base, and the possibility of other collectors, there's a HUGE amount of risk here.

2.) You reason that studying the base would produce tangible results, on a far more palletable level than blowing it up.

Except there is no guarantee to this.  You've already acknowledged this.  There's also no guarantee that it'll turn in your favor.  Experimenting with technology completely alien to you has many opportunities to not only backfire, but backfire pretty badly.  For all you know, leaving the collector base could mean having more reapers to fight.

3.) That you can trust the illusive man.

There's plenty of evidence to show that you can't.  The illusive man puts the illusive man first.  He even admitted as much when he took a 'calculated risk' of sending Shepard to the derelict Collector Ship.  HIs explanation for not telling Shepard is incredibly weak, "the Reapers may have been listening in..."

If the reapers were listening in, they would have also known that the turian encryption channels were wrong, and that Illusive Man probably didn't miss it.  Thus, the collectors took a "calculated risk" that they could trap and kill Shepard regardless of whether or not he knew.

marshalleck wrote...

As for TIM, I already addressed that much earlier.

Then readdress it.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

@ Logical Escape.

I don't see why you bother arguing with Saphra,it always starts out like it will be a reasonable debate,then it turns into "I think I'm right,therefore I am,and you are wrong,because you disagree with me."


Not like it's fallacy or anything.

[marshalleck]

Logical Escape wrote...

Then readdress it.

Excuse me? I'm not your pet. Go back and look for it.

[Arppis]

marshalleck wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

The rachni could be an ally.  This much is known at the time of the decision.  Furthermore, it's unlikely that one rachni queen would be a significant danger in the timescale of the reaper invasion.

Actually, the rachni are well-known for their fecundity. A single queen can have a mature brood in either weeks or months. Given years, they could substantially repopulate.

Shepard gave the race atleast in my game a fighting chance and chance to show that they aren't the genocidal maniacs that they are said to be. Ofcourse it is a risk, but it is also a risk to let council die, a risk of not getting help for humanity when they need it.

Modifié par Arppis, 17 août 2011 - 06:49 .

[KotorEffect3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

Questionable.  From a results perspective, the paragon result was better.  From a decision-making perspective, the renegade choice was safer.

You meta-gaming fool!

I'm done arguing with you.

Were your eyes glowing red when you typed that?

[Logical Escape]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You meta-gaming fool!

I'm done arguing with you.

You don't even understand how decision making works.

You make a decision based on COST-BENEFIT ANALYSIS.  Does that term ring a bell to you?  If you have a 50% chance of winning $10,000, versus a 100% chance of winning $500, what would be the better option to take?  Taking the first option makes a lot of sense.

In the case of the paragon decision, Shep was confident he could save the DA AND take out sovereign.  He made a calculated decision that would offer a much better payout at increased risk.

Your argument is that the renegade option is safer.  But you can't even prove that it's universally safer.  Instead, you cherry pick arguments here and there that suits you, and disregard everything else.  Funny guy..

[Seboist]

HomelessGal wrote...

Shep accusing TIM of wanting to make his own Reaper always struck me as one of the strangest lines of the game. It just seems to come completely out of left-field; they did just find the human Reaper, but why is that the first conclusion Shep jumps to?

It ranks right up there with the VS seriously thinking Cerberus is behind the colonist abductions on Horizon after seeing what happened.

[ObserverStatus]

Seboist wrote...

HomelessGal wrote...

Shep accusing TIM of wanting to make his own Reaper always struck me as one of the strangest lines of the game. It just seems to come completely out of left-field; they did just find the human Reaper, but why is that the first conclusion Shep jumps to?

It ranks right up there with the VS seriously thinking Cerberus is behind the colonist abductions on Horizon after seeing what happened.

It was probably the dumbest thing he said up until Tela Vasir's death scene.

[Warlocomotf]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The geth attacking the DA are not a factor. By the time they finish their task the Alliance will be passed them and more Council ships will be arriving to engage them.

The choice is framed very clearly by the narrative. Try and pick apart the battle all you want, the narrative makes it clear that going after Sovereign and ignoring the DA is the tactically superior option.

No it's not, there's only line in the dialog that implies it would be strategically preferable, namely "Don't waste your reinforcements, hold them back until the citadel has opened up. Save the human fleet to attack Sovereign".

This is an argument, however it's an argument that hinges upon the presumption that the casualties in saving the Destiny Ascension would outweigh the benefit of having the Destiny Ascension at your side and the assumption that leaving those Geth ships alone would not bite you in the ass while attacking Sovereign.

Again, value assessment vs value assessment.

[Logical Escape]

marshalleck wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

The rachni could be an ally.  This much is known at the time of the decision.  Furthermore, it's unlikely that one rachni queen would be a significant danger in the timescale of the reaper invasion.

Actually, the rachni are well-known for their fecundity. A single queen can have a mature brood in either weeks or months. Given years, they could substantially repopulate.

Sure, and so are the krogan.  But if not for the krogan, the rest of the council species would probably all be dead.  Ferocious species have their uses, especially when dealing with ferocious foes.

marshalleck wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

Then readdress it.

Excuse me? I'm not your pet. Go back and look for it.

Oh, okay.  So you have no intention of holding a rational argument.  You
would rather rely on what you nebulously discussed pages and pages ago.  I see.

So you made some comment pages and pages ago that I missed, despite reading through the entire thread, and instead of kindly revisiting it, or summarizing your point, you decide to make this a point of pride.  Good going.

Modifié par Logical Escape, 17 août 2011 - 06:51 .