708 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Arppis wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

The rachni could be an ally.  This much is known at the time of the decision.  Furthermore, it's unlikely that one rachni queen would be a significant danger in the timescale of the reaper invasion.

Actually, the rachni are well-known for their fecundity. A single queen can have a mature brood in either weeks or months. Given years, they could substantially repopulate.

Shepard gave the race atleast in my game a fighting chance and chance to show that they aren't the genocidal maniacs that they are said to be. Ofcourse it is a risk, but it is also a risk to let council die, a risk of not getting help for humanity when they need it.

I'm no longer interested in discussing the merit of these decisions. Merely pointing out that Logical Escape is wrong in thinking there's no reason to believe a single queen could be a problem within the timescale of reaper invasion. Their ability to reproduce is the entire reason the Council was losing the war against them until they found a race which could outpace the attrition on their own, the krogan.

[Arppis]

Seboist wrote...

HomelessGal wrote...

Shep accusing TIM of wanting to make his own Reaper always struck me as one of the strangest lines of the game. It just seems to come completely out of left-field; they did just find the human Reaper, but why is that the first conclusion Shep jumps to?

It ranks right up there with the VS seriously thinking Cerberus is behind the colonist abductions on Horizon after seeing what happened.

Don't think so, it was just a speculative example of what Illusive man might do. He has already done many mad experiments on a lot of things, so it wouldn't be a surprise if he did try something that crazy.

[Arppis]

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

The rachni could be an ally.  This much is known at the time of the decision.  Furthermore, it's unlikely that one rachni queen would be a significant danger in the timescale of the reaper invasion.

Actually, the rachni are well-known for their fecundity. A single queen can have a mature brood in either weeks or months. Given years, they could substantially repopulate.

Shepard gave the race atleast in my game a fighting chance and chance to show that they aren't the genocidal maniacs that they are said to be. Ofcourse it is a risk, but it is also a risk to let council die, a risk of not getting help for humanity when they need it.

I'm no longer interested in discussing the merit of these decisions. Merely pointing out that Logical Escape is wrong in thinking there's no reason to believe a single queen could be a problem within the timescale of reaper invasion. Their ability to reproduce is the entire reason the Council was losing the war against them until they found a race which could outpace the attrition on their own, the krogan.

Fair enough.

[Logical Escape]

marshalleck wrote...
I'm no longer interested in discussing the merit of these decisions. Merely pointing out that Logical Escape is wrong in thinking there's no reason to believe a single queen could be a problem within the timescale of reaper invasion. Their ability to reproduce is the entire reason the Council was losing the war against them until they found a race which could outpace the attrition on their own, the krogan.

Just as you're wrong in assuming that there's no risk in killing the queen.  You could use the help a Rachni queen could afford you against the Reapers.  I'm pretty sure you could use all the help you can get.  Both sides come with risk.

[Arppis]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

No it's not, there's only line in the dialog that implies it would be strategically preferable, namely "Don't waste your reinforcements, hold them back until the citadel has opened up. Save the human fleet to attack Sovereign".

This is an argument, however it's an argument that hinges upon the presumption that the casualties in saving the Destiny Ascension would outweigh the benefit of having the Destiny Ascension at your side and the assumption that leaving those Geth ships alone would not bite you in the ass while attacking Sovereign.

Again, value assessment vs value assessment.

You know the DA is helpless, dead in the water so to speak, so saving it accomplishes nothing in the immediate battle. A battle which you cannot afford to lose.

But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

[Zu Long]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The geth attacking the DA are not a factor. By the time they finish their task the Alliance will be passed them and more Council ships will be arriving to engage them.

The choice is framed very clearly by the narrative. Try and pick apart the battle all you want, the narrative makes it clear that going after Sovereign and ignoring the DA is the tactically superior option.

Tactically, maybe. Strategically it was unquestionably the poorer decision, without having to metagame at all (Sacrificing the galactic heads of state can only lead to greater division between the races in the long run, an inarguably worse situation against the threat of reaper invasion). It came down to Shepard's confidence that the 5th Fleet could still take Sovereign down even after incurring extra casualties saving the Destiny Ascension. The truth is bringing in the fleet shows Paragon Shepard's greater confidence in humanity as a whole as she believes they will be able to accomplish both objectives.

[Logical Escape]

Arppis wrote...

Don't think so, it was just a speculative example of what Illusive man might do. He has already done many mad experiments on a lot of things, so it wouldn't be a surprise if he did try something that crazy.

This.  The illusive man can hardly be trusted.  He didn't earn his shadowy reputation for no reason.  The logical, less risk option would be to hand it over to another organization, one that is more trustworthy.  Handing over the base to cerberus creates risk.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

In fact, you never agreed to hande the base over to Cerberus in the first place. All you agreed to do was not destroy it.

[Warlocomotf]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

No it's not, there's only line in the dialog that implies it would be strategically preferable, namely "Don't waste your reinforcements, hold them back until the citadel has opened up. Save the human fleet to attack Sovereign".

This is an argument, however it's an argument that hinges upon the presumption that the casualties in saving the Destiny Ascension would outweigh the benefit of having the Destiny Ascension at your side and the assumption that leaving those Geth ships alone would not bite you in the ass while attacking Sovereign.

Again, value assessment vs value assessment.

You know the DA is helpless, dead in the water so to speak, so saving it accomplishes nothing in the immediate battle. A battle which you cannot afford to lose.

What? No that's wrong.

It says: "Main drives offline, Kinetic Barriers at 40%". Meaning, secoary drives still online, almost half the shield still up- and weapon systems don't sound like they're offline either.

Any assumption beyond that is meta gaming.

[Logical Escape]

Saphra Deden wrote...

If the rachin could be a great help then they could also be a grave threat.

By killing the queen I make sure she'll never be either. That's safer.

Yes, killing the queen reduces uncertainty.  It may not, for example, be the optimal choice.  Does expected value mean nothing to you?

[Arppis]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

This.  The illusive man can hardly be trusted.  He didn't earn his shadowy reputation for no reason.  The logical, less risk option would be to hand it over to another organization, one that is more trustworthy.  Handing over the base to cerberus creates risk.

Okay, so go tell someone else about it. There's nothing stopping you. In fact, you never agreed to hande the base over to Cerberus in the first place. All you agreed to do was not destroy it.

Wasn't an option. It was one or the two. Sadly so.


And I love explosions.

Modifié par Arppis, 17 août 2011 - 07:02 .

[Logical Escape]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Okay, so go tell someone else about it. There's nothing stopping you. In fact, you never agreed to hande the base over to Cerberus in the first place. All you agreed to do was not destroy it.

Uhh... Cerberus is the only one with a reaper IFF.

Yes, go tell others about it so they can crash through the Omega 4 relay.

[KotorEffect3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Were your eyes glowing red when you typed that?

I wish. Shepard's scars and Renegade eyes would be pretty badass to have in real-life.

They could come in handy

[marshalleck]

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 07:03 .

[Arppis]

Logical Escape wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Okay, so go tell someone else about it. There's nothing stopping you. In fact, you never agreed to hande the base over to Cerberus in the first place. All you agreed to do was not destroy it.

Uhh... Cerberus is the only one with a reaper IFF.

Yes, go tell others about it so they can crash through the Omega 4 relay.

Naw, you have it in your ship. You can give the info to other parties. But really, the game didn't give us the option to do so.

[Warlocomotf]

Saphra Deden wrote...

If the rachin could be a great help then they could also be a grave threat.

By killing the queen I make sure she'll never be either. That's safer.

Somehow this argument seems not to count when it comes to keeping the collector base.
On one hand there's a risk, on the other hand there's a chance it could help.

The chance of backfire exists in both scenario's.

[Logical Escape]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

Uhh... Cerberus is the only one with a reaper IFF.

You have one too.

Now you're meta-gaming.  You don't even know if EDI would let you give the IFF to anyone else.  EDI is still a Cerberus construction, after all.

[Arppis]

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

Sometimes you have to take a chance for bigger gains, who dares wins.

It had a lot of lives on board, it's a big ship and like I said, they had council with them (even when people moan about them all the time, they are still valuable for galaxy). Those people needed help. Even when they weren't human.

Modifié par Arppis, 17 août 2011 - 07:08 .

[Last Vizard]

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

Yoda's tells us that "Fear leads to hate, hate leads to suffering"

I don't think Pro-human is in the same league as Pro-white, Pro-white is the unjustified hate/fear of other races while Pro-Human is for the protection of our species.... First contact war anyone? ME universe in fairly realistic when it comes to politics, Humanity is at peril as long as there are Aliens and that isn't propaganda because the events during the Rachni wars, Krogan rebellions and the morning War are events where sentient species have been brought to the brink of extinction by other sentients. 

Pro-Human doesn't involve Hate, its just survival of the most paranoid in a galaxy of dangerous elements waiting for an opening to exploit.  Theres nothing wrong with wanting peace however your very naive if you think it'll last forever and when push comes to shove Humanity should've been ready to stand alone due to constant preperation for war...

Did Humanity learn from the first contact war? don't hear anything about denfence around and from the relay to Earth against the chance the Turians try something, did the writters overlook this?  Was the Defeat of the Reapers have left the living memory of most sentient species its going to be business as usually and a countdown to war.