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[Warlocomotf]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

It says: "Main drives offline, Kinetic Barriers at 40%". Meaning, secoary drives still online, almost half the shield still up- and weapon systems don't sound like they're offline either.

That means it is in bad shape. It's not going to stay around and fight. The Council is onboard and it was already in the process of feeling.

"ABANDON THE CITADEL!"

You save the DA and it's going to grab a few more Council ships as an escort and hightail it out of there.

Meanwhile you're down several ships with nothing to show for it.

You're pulling that citation out of thin air. It's not part of the radio transmision received.
And why exactly would it not stay to fight? The Geth ships at that point are moot- you destroyed them, it has weapon and drive systems- and even with it's shields at 40% those shields are likely stronger than that of half the rest of the fleet.

You're meta gaming.

[Arppis]

Last Vizard wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

Yoda's tells us that "Fear leads to hate, hate leads to suffering"

I don't think Pro-human is in the same league as Pro-white, Pro-white is the unjustified hate/fear of other races while Pro-Human is for the protection of our species.... First contact war anyone? ME universe in fairly realistic when it comes to politics, Humanity is at peril as long as there are Aliens and that isn't propaganda because the events during the Rachni wars, Krogan rebellions and the morning War are events where sentient species have been brought to the brink of extinction by other sentients. 

Pro-Human doesn't involve Hate, its just survival of the most paranoid in a galaxy of dangerous elements waiting for an opening to exploit.  Theres nothing wrong with wanting peace however your very naive if you think it'll last forever and when push comes to shove Humanity should've been ready to stand alone due to constant preperation for war...

Did Humanity learn from the first contact war? don't hear anything about denfence around and from the relay to Earth against the chance the Turians try something, did the writters overlook this?  Was the Defeat of the Reapers have left the living memory of most sentient species its going to be business as usually and a countdown to war.

And that's how racial tensions begun. If you really want to have humans in safer postion, you need to build relations with diplomacy. Otherwise we will live in same sittulation that happens in middle-east. Sure, humans need advantage too, but there is no reason to get a sollution that helps everyone involved, thus helping towards the peace.

But fine, if  you want constant war, go for it.

Modifié par Arppis, 17 août 2011 - 07:11 .

[marshalleck]

Arppis wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

Sometimes you have to take a chance for bigger gains, who dares wins.

It had a lot of lives on board, it's a big ship and like I said, they had council with them (even when people moan about them all the time, they are still valuable for galaxy). Those people needed help. Even when they weren't human.

They have no value as soon as Sovereign unlocks the Citadel relay.

Screw it. This is just repetition now. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 07:10 .

[Zu Long]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

The truth is bringing in the fleet shows Paragon Shepard's greater confidence in humanity as a whole as she believes they will be able to accomplish both objectives.

Which does ****all to justify the decision.

Thanks for wasting my time with that post.

The justification would have been in the top part of the post, which you somehow omitted from your post. It's almost as if you intentionally avoided it since you can't argue against it. Tisk, tisk.

[Saaziel]

marshalleck wrote...

Paragon is hardly without risk.

I never said it was , you've completely missed the point.

marshalleck wrote...
So you've blown up the base. What's your plan now?

I've explained before. It would be near Meta-gaming to assume that Sheppard has any special destiny at defeating the Reapers; its irrelevant what that plan might be.

If you insist however: Use the Shadow broker's influence to place people sympathetic to Shep/Reaper theory in power. Locate more Prothean sites. Kill TIM , place Jacob or Miranda in his place. Upgrade other ships with the Normandy tech. Scatter the general population off worlds and isolate the relays of specific systems (Much like the Charon relay was incased in ice) . Have the Geth devote resources to the construction of more Legion-like platforms and long term "dormant" station (Should we fail , they ought to warn the next cycle).

Vigil said something to the fact that : A Reaper cannot survive a united force against it ;They're not invincible . It worked once before , I have not reason to believe it wouldn't work again if the forces are better equipped and prepared.

As a side note I sincerely hope "You've blown it up , now what's your plan" doesn't end up being your Catch phrase.

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

No mention is made of weapons being offline.

[Arppis]

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

Sometimes you have to take a chance for bigger gains, who dares wins.

It had a lot of lives on board, it's a big ship and like I said, they had council with them (even when people moan about them all the time, they are still valuable for galaxy). Those people needed help. Even when they weren't human.

They have no value as soon as Sovereign unlocks the Citadel relay.

Screw it. This is just repetition now. 

Hm, sorry came to this convo a bit too late! :3

[Logical Escape]

Last Vizard wrote...

Pro-Human doesn't involve Hate, its just survival of the most paranoid in a galaxy of dangerous elements waiting for an opening to exploit.  Theres nothing wrong with wanting peace however your very naive if you think it'll last forever and when push comes to shove Humanity should've been ready to stand alone due to constant preperation for war...

Did Humanity learn from the first contact war? don't hear anything about denfence around and from the relay to Earth against the chance the Turians try something, did the writters overlook this?  Was the Defeat of the Reapers have left the living memory of most sentient species its going to be business as usually and a countdown to war.

Pro-Human isn't renegade.  Pro-humanity at the detriment of other species can be renegade.  Yes, the current situation in the galaxy is pretty tumultous, and species will always put their own species first.

However, you cannot presume that things can't improve, peacefully, from the first contact war.  We have improved hugely from just a few decades ago.  The US doesn't have a huge amount of animosity against the Germans anymore, and can act in accord with each other.  The thing about politics is that it's fluid.  People can come to an understanding and be civil towards each other even if they acknowledge that they'll put their own interests first.

[Arppis]

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

No mention is made of weapons being offline.

Wasn't the point, dear Watson. It is about lives, not about weapons.

[marshalleck]

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

No mention is made of weapons being offline.

Which explains why it wasn't kicking ass with that gigantic dreadnought main gun?

[Warlocomotf]

Arppis wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

No mention is made of weapons being offline.

Wasn't the point, dear Watson. It is about lives, not about weapons.

I was not making an argument in your place, I was pointing out that it's not true.
For the sake of my own argument it's important that such fabrications do not gain traction.

[Logical Escape]

Saaziel wrote...

I've explained before. It would be near Meta-gaming to assume that Sheppard has any special destiny at defeating the Reapers; its irrelevant what that plan might be.

It would be meta-gaming.  There's nothing special about Shepard's bullets that ensure that only he can kill a reaper.  The shot that ends the reaper invasion could come from anyone.  Any human, turian, quarian, asari, krogan, rachni, drell, hanar, elcor, vorcha, or volus.  Okay, maybe not a volus...

It's more important to unify the troops against the reaper threat than to give Cerberus and the Illusive Man a leg up.  Even if Cerberus does find something useful on the collector base, it's more likely the unified armada that takes out the reapers.

Modifié par Logical Escape, 17 août 2011 - 07:19 .

[Arppis]

Warlocomotf wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

No mention is made of weapons being offline.

Wasn't the point, dear Watson. It is about lives, not about weapons.

I was not making an argument in your place, I was pointing out that it's not true.
For the sake of my own argument it's important that such fabrications do not gain traction.

Oukei.

[JGDD]

marshalleck wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

No mention is made of weapons being offline.

Which explains why it wasn't kicking ass with that gigantic dreadnought main gun?

.

Seriously? You want to fire a dreadnaught class mass cannon at the reaper ATTACHED to a giant mass relay?

[Logical Escape]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes, there is risk, I explained that. However the risk won't actually be reduced if we destroy the base. The equation will stay the same without any possible benefits.

The rachni queen could make things easier or harder.

So if the Cerberus researchers became indoctrinated and wanted to make a new reaper, that wouldn't make things harder?

There's risks to leaving the base there.  You seem to be the only one that hasn't realized that.

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

No mention is made of weapons being offline.

Which explains why it wasn't kicking ass with that gigantic dreadnought main gun?

Could quite simply have been outnumbered, either way Shepard had no visual on the DA- the only thing he had to go by was the radio message he received. Which only mentioned that it was in trouble, the council was on board, roughly half the shields were left, and main drives were offline.

From everything you're aware of at that point, that "gigantic dreadnought main gun" was still fully operational (regardless of whether or not that's actually also true).

[marshalleck]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

No mention is made of weapons being offline.

Which explains why it wasn't kicking ass with that gigantic dreadnought main gun?

.

Seriously? You want to fire a dreadnaught class mass cannon at the reaper ATTACHED to a giant mass relay?

No, I don't. The guy claiming the Destiny Ascension needs to be saved because it's a tactical resource to help in the fight wants to.

I'm fully cognizant of the fact that dreadnoughts are mostly useless in close combat...especially combat within the Citadel's ward arms.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 07:21 .

[JGDD]

marshalleck wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

No mention is made of weapons being offline.

Which explains why it wasn't kicking ass with that gigantic dreadnought main gun?

.

Seriously? You want to fire a dreadnaught class mass cannon at the reaper ATTACHED to a giant mass relay?

No, I don't. The guy claiming the Destiny Ascension needs to be saved because it's a tactical resource to help in the fight wants to.

I'm fully cognizant of the fact that dreadnoughts are mostly useless in close combat...especially combat within the Citadel's ward arms.

I see no evidence of that.

[Warlocomotf]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Somehow this argument seems not to count when it comes to keeping the collector base.
On one hand there's a risk, on the other hand there's a chance it could help.

The chance of backfire exists in both scenario's.

Yes, there is risk, I explained that. However the risk won't actually be reduced if we destroy the base. The equation will stay the same without any possible benefits.

The rachni queen could make things easier or harder.

So could keeping the Collector base. It could make things easier through research- it could make things harder through wasted resources and indoctrinated researchers putting the base on "active" again.

[marshalleck]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...
I see no evidence of that.

See no evidence of what?

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 07:23 .

[JGDD]

Let me help you remember: "No, I don't. The guy claiming the Destiny Ascension needs to be saved because it's a tactical resource to help in the fight wants to."

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arppis wrote...
But there was a lot of lives in there. A lot more than what you had in those dreadnaughts humanity lost. Plus galaxy would think more highly of humanity after saving it. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices for bigger picture.

What are they going to do, put on spacesuits and go punch Sovereign to death?

The DA's weapons were offline and its shields failing. As a tactical resource it had no value. 

There are ways to justify the decision, but these are hilariously wrong.

No mention is made of weapons being offline.

Which explains why it wasn't kicking ass with that gigantic dreadnought main gun?

.

Seriously? You want to fire a dreadnaught class mass cannon at the reaper ATTACHED to a giant mass relay?

No, I don't. The guy claiming the Destiny Ascension needs to be saved because it's a tactical resource to help in the fight wants to.

I'm fully cognizant of the fact that dreadnoughts are mostly useless in close combat...especially combat within the Citadel's ward arms.

You work on the presumption that the Destiny Ascension would be useless because you think it has only 1 weapon which you presume is "too powerful". If it is in fact too powerful, that makes it a perfect weapon to use in an all or nothing scenario- if it were to come to that.

Modifié par Warlocomotf, 17 août 2011 - 07:28 .

[JGDD]

One weapon? Hardly. The dreadnaughts have defensive weapons for close quarter combat/defense.

[Warlocomotf]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

One weapon? Hardly. The dreadnaughts have defensive weapons for close quarter combat/defense.

Which is my point. At the time of making the decision we have no information that suggests that the Destiny Ascension's weapons are offline. The only information we have is that it's getting overwhelmed.

My argument is that, according to the data we have, saving the Destiny Ascension could be a very good idea. Not only because to the best of our knowledge, it's still in fighting condition; but also because any Geth you shoot down on the way to Sovereign is Geth you won't have to worry about attacking you from behind once attacking Sovereign.