708 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Name one paragon action that is treasonous or anti-human

Sacrificing human lives to save the council to satisfy his/her own ego and deluded idealism.

As opposed to letting the council die in which you end up pissing off every other species in the process in what is perceived as a grab for power even if that is not the reason why your Shepard did it that is how it is perceived.

Yes, that's totally more important than rushing to stop Sovereign before he unleashes armageddon.

[KotorEffect3]

Seboist wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

I've always gone on the assumption that for the major decisions.

Paragon = Building an intergalactic alliance.
Renegade = Humans doing it alone.

The non major decisions run the gamete.

Major Renegade decisions like focusing on sovereign, killing the rachni queen*, destroying the heretic geth,etc benefit all of Galactic civilization. They aren't some one note scheme to ensure human dominance.

* If the writers had more sense or took the morality and outcomes more seriously killing the Rachni Queen would have earned Renegade Shepard a lot of respect from the Krogans for honoring the memory of their ancestors.

The Rachni thing isn't exactly public knowledge,  it is also safe to assume that Wrex is the only Krogan that knows about it.

[MacCready]

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

Yes, yes and yes. 

[Aaleel]

Seboist wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

I've always gone on the assumption that for the major decisions.

Paragon = Building an intergalactic alliance.
Renegade = Humans doing it alone.

The non major decisions run the gamete.

Major Renegade decisions like focusing on sovereign, killing the rachni queen*, destroying the heretic geth,etc benefit all of Galactic civilization. They aren't some one note scheme to ensure human dominance.

* If the writers had more sense or took the morality and outcomes more seriously killing the Rachni Queen would have earned Renegade Shepard a lot of respect from the Krogans for honoring the memory of their ancestors.

I meant more like...

- You let the Rachni Queen live, Rachni are a potential ally, you kill her they aren't.
- You encourage the Geth and Quarians to go to war, you weaken them both as potential allies or distract them with war, if you encourage peace, they're more viable allies.
- You save the council you maintain trust and keep bridges unburned with other races, you let them die, the other races are less trustful of humanity.
- You rewrite the geth they are a potnetial ally, you destroy them, they're not.

Things like this.  I never said anything about Human dominace, I said humans ending up going it alone or with less allies.

Modifié par Aaleel, 16 août 2011 - 11:26 .

[C9316]

Because most of the time Pro-Human also equals sh*tting on the other races and in ME sh*tting on the other races equals douchebag and douchebag equals renegade...

[Seboist]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

I've always gone on the assumption that for the major decisions.

Paragon = Building an intergalactic alliance.
Renegade = Humans doing it alone.

The non major decisions run the gamete.

Major Renegade decisions like focusing on sovereign, killing the rachni queen*, destroying the heretic geth,etc benefit all of Galactic civilization. They aren't some one note scheme to ensure human dominance.

* If the writers had more sense or took the morality and outcomes more seriously killing the Rachni Queen would have earned Renegade Shepard a lot of respect from the Krogans for honoring the memory of their ancestors.

The Rachni thing isn't exactly public knowledge,  it is also safe to assume that Wrex is the only Krogan that knows about it.

Except for the fact that both outcomes are broadcasted on the news and that Okeer and Wrex/Wreav talk about the Krogans being angry at Shepard for destroying Saren's genophage cure. If the Krogans hear about the cure being destroyed then there's no reason why they wouldn't hear about the Queen's fate.

Modifié par Seboist, 16 août 2011 - 11:29 .

[KotorEffect3]

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Name one paragon action that is treasonous or anti-human

Sacrificing human lives to save the council to satisfy his/her own ego and deluded idealism.

As opposed to letting the council die in which you end up pissing off every other species in the process in what is perceived as a grab for power even if that is not the reason why your Shepard did it that is how it is perceived.

Yes, that's totally more important than rushing to stop Sovereign before he unleashes armageddon.

Or saving allies that will in turn help you take out Sovereign.  You really need to learn to look at other perspectives.

[Seboist]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Name one paragon action that is treasonous or anti-human

Sacrificing human lives to save the council to satisfy his/her own ego and deluded idealism.

As opposed to letting the council die in which you end up pissing off every other species in the process in what is perceived as a grab for power even if that is not the reason why your Shepard did it that is how it is perceived.

Yes, that's totally more important than rushing to stop Sovereign before he unleashes armageddon.

Or saving allies that will in turn help you take out Sovereign.  You really need to learn to look at other perspectives.

The game flat out says the choices are "Save the council" and "focus on sovereign". Nowhere is it implied the former involves getting more allies against Sovereign.

[MacCready]

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Name one paragon action that is treasonous or anti-human

Sacrificing human lives to save the council to satisfy his/her own ego and deluded idealism.

As opposed to letting the council die in which you end up pissing off every other species in the process in what is perceived as a grab for power even if that is not the reason why your Shepard did it that is how it is perceived.

Yes, that's totally more important than rushing to stop Sovereign before he unleashes armageddon.

I thought ignoring the council was the paragon choice? Ah, ye see! It's not black and white, shades of grey my friend. And that's why karma meters suck!

[Agamo45]

MacCready wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

Yes, yes and yes. 

Well, that's why you're a degenerate Quisling.

[KotorEffect3]

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Name one paragon action that is treasonous or anti-human

Sacrificing human lives to save the council to satisfy his/her own ego and deluded idealism.

As opposed to letting the council die in which you end up pissing off every other species in the process in what is perceived as a grab for power even if that is not the reason why your Shepard did it that is how it is perceived.

Yes, that's totally more important than rushing to stop Sovereign before he unleashes armageddon.

Or saving allies that will in turn help you take out Sovereign.  You really need to learn to look at other perspectives.

The game flat out says the choices are "Save the council" and "focus on sovereign". Nowhere is it implied the former involves getting more allies against Sovereign.

The game expects you to use your head a little bit when making decisions, it isn't going to spell out every litttle detail for you.  Admiral Hackett in Arrival even mentions that the DA helped in the battle against Sovereign.  You can make the decisions you want to make but don't invalidate the decisions others made in their games because they are different from yours

[Seboist]

MacCready wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Name one paragon action that is treasonous or anti-human

Sacrificing human lives to save the council to satisfy his/her own ego and deluded idealism.

As opposed to letting the council die in which you end up pissing off every other species in the process in what is perceived as a grab for power even if that is not the reason why your Shepard did it that is how it is perceived.

Yes, that's totally more important than rushing to stop Sovereign before he unleashes armageddon.

I thought ignoring the council was the paragon choice? Ah, ye see! It's not black and white, shades of grey my friend. And that's why karma meters suck!

Nope, "Save the council" is Paragon, "Focus on Sovereign" is neutral and "let the council die" is Renegade.

And yeah karma meters suck ass,especially when they're not properly thought out.

[Boiny Bunny]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Name one paragon action that is treasonous or anti-human

Sacrificing human lives to save the council to satisfy his/her own ego and deluded idealism.

As opposed to letting the council die in which you end up pissing off every other species in the process in what is perceived as a grab for power even if that is not the reason why your Shepard did it that is how it is perceived.

Yes, that's totally more important than rushing to stop Sovereign before he unleashes armageddon.

Or saving allies that will in turn help you take out Sovereign.  You really need to learn to look at other perspectives.

I think you mean, 'help you take out the Reapers in the long term' rather than Sovereign.

The decision is presented  as a tactically foolish move that will allow Sovereign more time to open the relay, and reduce your chances of defeating it as you will lose a good deal of ships saving the Ascention.  The gain is that you saved the council - which may improve diplomatic relations with the other races (and in fact, gets humanity a seat on the council) and have long term benefits.

The game never hinted that saving the Ascention would give you an advantage while fighting Sovereign - quite the opposite, in every way.

[KotorEffect3]

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

I've always gone on the assumption that for the major decisions.

Paragon = Building an intergalactic alliance.
Renegade = Humans doing it alone.

The non major decisions run the gamete.

Major Renegade decisions like focusing on sovereign, killing the rachni queen*, destroying the heretic geth,etc benefit all of Galactic civilization. They aren't some one note scheme to ensure human dominance.

* If the writers had more sense or took the morality and outcomes more seriously killing the Rachni Queen would have earned Renegade Shepard a lot of respect from the Krogans for honoring the memory of their ancestors.

The Rachni thing isn't exactly public knowledge,  it is also safe to assume that Wrex is the only Krogan that knows about it.

Except for the fact that both outcomes are broadcasted on the news and that Okeer and Wrex/Wreav talk about the Krogans being angry at Shepard for destroying Saren's genophage cure. If the Krogans hear about the cure being destroyed then there's no reason why they wouldn't hear about the Queen's fate.

Virmire is not Noveria just because some of what happened in Virmire is known doesn't make what happened on Noveria known. 

[Agamo45]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Name one paragon action that is treasonous or anti-human

Sacrificing human lives to save the council to satisfy his/her own ego and deluded idealism.

As opposed to letting the council die in which you end up pissing off every other species in the process in what is perceived as a grab for power even if that is not the reason why your Shepard did it that is how it is perceived.

Yes, that's totally more important than rushing to stop Sovereign before he unleashes armageddon.

Or saving allies that will in turn help you take out Sovereign.  You really need to learn to look at other perspectives.

Look at this from a logical point of view. You're going to sacrifice human lives and ships to save 3 useless politicians who had just stabbed you in the back, even when Sovereign might be opening the Citadel relay. All that just to satisfy a sense of morality.

[LGTX]

Vigil's virus was in, the Reapers were cut off. Sovy was in the minority and his minutes were numbered anyway, at least that's the gist I had when first finishing the game. Taking him out with a live Council was the more productive choice.

[KotorEffect3]

Agamo45 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Name one paragon action that is treasonous or anti-human

Sacrificing human lives to save the council to satisfy his/her own ego and deluded idealism.

As opposed to letting the council die in which you end up pissing off every other species in the process in what is perceived as a grab for power even if that is not the reason why your Shepard did it that is how it is perceived.

Yes, that's totally more important than rushing to stop Sovereign before he unleashes armageddon.

Or saving allies that will in turn help you take out Sovereign.  You really need to learn to look at other perspectives.

Look at this from a logical point of view. You're going to sacrifice human lives and ships to save 3 useless politicians who had just stabbed you in the back, even when Sovereign might be opening the Citadel relay. All that just to satisfy a sense of morality.

I am not invalidating the reasoning for those that let the council die (I have done playthroughs where I let them die for variety's sake) but I don't like seeing my decision to save them being invalidated.  Why do you assume I am saving out of a sense of morality?  I am saving them for the sake of galactic stability what I think of those three individuals themselves is irrelevant,  I am thinking of the galaxy as a whole as well as preserving the most powerful dreadnaught in Citadel space.

[MacCready]

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

Yes, yes and yes. 

Well, that's why you're a degenerate Quisling.

Oh come on. The west are dicks, especially America (and England). We go out of our way to **** up other countries in the name of 'democracy' whilst imposing our values and ethics on to them. The west act like the master race and are far from the altruistic champions of peace that they like to think they are.

[lolnoobs]

Basically

Paragon = Sissy
Renegade = Not sissy

[lolnoobs]

MacCready wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

Yes, yes and yes. 

Well, that's why you're a degenerate Quisling.

Oh come on. The west are dicks, especially America (and England). We go out of our way to **** up other countries in the name of 'democracy' whilst imposing our values and ethics on to them. The west act like the master race and are far from the altruistic champions of peace that they like to think they are.

It's thanks to the west you now own a computer. It's thanks to the west you even have mass effect.

And if the west sucks so much, there's always room in Somalia. But food might be hard to find right now, which ironically, also comes from the west.

Modifié par lolnoobs, 16 août 2011 - 11:42 .

[KotorEffect3]

MacCready wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

Yes, yes and yes. 

Well, that's why you're a degenerate Quisling.

Oh come on. The west are dicks, especially America (and England). We go out of our way to **** up other countries in the name of 'democracy' whilst imposing our values and ethics on to them. The west act like the master race and are far from the altruistic champions of peace that they like to think they are.

Keep the real life politics out of here.  We are here to discuss fictional galactic politics thank you

[MacCready]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

Yes, yes and yes. 

Well, that's why you're a degenerate Quisling.

Oh come on. The west are dicks, especially America (and England). We go out of our way to **** up other countries in the name of 'democracy' whilst imposing our values and ethics on to them. The west act like the master race and are far from the altruistic champions of peace that they like to think they are.

Keep the real life politics out of here.  We are here to discuss fictional galactic politics thank you

Yeah, because that's much more important?

But anyways, it's your thread so I won't invade.

[KotorEffect3]

MacCready wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

Yes, yes and yes. 

Well, that's why you're a degenerate Quisling.

Oh come on. The west are dicks, especially America (and England). We go out of our way to **** up other countries in the name of 'democracy' whilst imposing our values and ethics on to them. The west act like the master race and are far from the altruistic champions of peace that they like to think they are.

Keep the real life politics out of here.  We are here to discuss fictional galactic politics thank you

Yeah, because that's much more important?

But anyways, it's your thread so I won't invade.

There is an off topic forum for that stuff.  This forum was to discuss the game.  Some people don't want that crap stuffed down their throat.

[redneckwonderland]

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

Yes, even more so than if just pro-white.

[Ultai]

LGTX wrote...

Vigil's virus was in, the Reapers were cut off. Sovy was in the minority and his minutes were numbered anyway, at least that's the gist I had when first finishing the game. Taking him out with a live Council was the more productive choice.

I'm sure an ancient sentient machine isn't capable of just hacking through an organic race's little file in a short period of time in a network the Reapers constructed.  I mean, compared to the Reapers, the protheans are just a blip when talking about lifespan and acquired knowledge.  

Which is why I think if the Reapers really wanted to win, they would just bum rush the Citadel again with their entire fleet, easily occupy the station, hack through Vigil's file, then selectively shut off relays.  But this is a game and the player has to win, and most of the time the hero wins by forced villain stupidity (let's spread ourselves all over the galaxy!), or in this case, most likely a deus ex machina.  Focus on Sovereign always made the most tactical sense to me, that and I don't give a damn if random aliens like me or not.