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[Zu Long]

Here's a tactical thought on saving the Destiny Ascension- you have a mechanical god-ship enclosed inside the citadel arms, and the remains of a geth fleet waiting outside, destroying what remains of the Citadel Defense Fleet. The 5th fleet waits in reserve. The arms will open soon, allowing attacks on the mechanical god.

Realistically, the best choice is to bring in the fleet immediately. As things stand, the enemy forces are divided- part inside, part outside. If you bring the fleet in now, you have to fight the geth fleet. If you wait, you STILL have to fight the geth fleet, and now the reaper is BACKING THEM UP.

Thus, contrary to what the game tells you, the superior tactical choice is to come in immediately, bring your superior force against the geth to defeat them in detail while simultaneously preserving the remnants of an allied fleet, and THEN take on the mechanical demi-god by itself.

[marshalleck]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

One weapon? Hardly. The dreadnaughts have defensive weapons for close quarter combat/defense.

Defensive weapons, i.e. GARDIAN laser batteries. Which are enough to destroy incoming ordinance or small craft, but lack offensive punch and generate massive amounts of heat, to the point that they have to be shut down before the heat becomes enough to cook a ship's crew. They can't be fired indefinitely. Dreadnoughts are primarily designed for long-range slug fests with stationary targets such as installations on planets, or large targets such as other dreadnoughts. The truth of this statement is born out by watching the Destiny get its ass kicked by swarms of geth frigates and cruisers...its defensive weapons can't deal with ships of that size, let alone Sovereign. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 07:41 .

[marshalleck]

Zu Long wrote...

Here's a tactical thought on saving the Destiny Ascension- you have a mechanical god-ship enclosed inside the citadel arms, and the remains of a geth fleet waiting outside, destroying what remains of the Citadel Defense Fleet. The 5th fleet waits in reserve. The arms will open soon, allowing attacks on the mechanical god.

Realistically, the best choice is to bring in the fleet immediately. As things stand, the enemy forces are divided- part inside, part outside. If you bring the fleet in now, you have to fight the geth fleet. If you wait, you STILL have to fight the geth fleet, and now the reaper is BACKING THEM UP.

Thus, contrary to what the game tells you, the superior tactical choice is to come in immediately, bring your superior force against the geth to defeat them in detail while simultaneously preserving the remnants of an allied fleet, and THEN take on the mechanical demi-god by itself.

All of which ignores the fact that Sovereign being locked out of the controls was only temporary. The program Vigil gave Shepard would only scramble the Citadel's systems. Sovereign would be able to dump the junk data and eventually resume opening the Citadel relay. Vigil's hope was for that small window of opportunity to be enough to destroy sovereign...which supports the decision to bring as much firepower to bear on it as soon as possible. Dividing your forces on a side engagement you have no way of predicting the outcome of only multiplies your uncertainty of taking down Sovereign.

[Zu Long]

marshalleck wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

One weapon? Hardly. The dreadnaughts have defensive weapons for close quarter combat/defense.

Defensive weapons, i.e. GARDIAN laser batteries. Which are enough to destroy incoming ordinance or small craft, but lack offensive punch and generate massive amounts of heat. Dreadnoughts are primarily designed for long-range slug fests with stationary targets such as installations on planets, or large targets such as other dreadnoughts. The truth of this statement is born out by watching the Destiny get its ass kicked by swarms of geth frigates and cruisers...its defensive weapons can't deal with ships of that size, let alone Sovereign. 

Besides the guardian lasers, Dreadnoughts also have broadside guns. The codex informs us that a single Kilamanjaro class has 156 of them. The problem isn't that DA's firepower is ineffective, but rather that it is simply too badly outnumbered without the 5th fleet's assistance.

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Here's a tactical thought on saving the Destiny Ascension- you have a mechanical god-ship enclosed inside the citadel arms, and the remains of a geth fleet waiting outside, destroying what remains of the Citadel Defense Fleet. The 5th fleet waits in reserve. The arms will open soon, allowing attacks on the mechanical god.

Realistically, the best choice is to bring in the fleet immediately. As things stand, the enemy forces are divided- part inside, part outside. If you bring the fleet in now, you have to fight the geth fleet. If you wait, you STILL have to fight the geth fleet, and now the reaper is BACKING THEM UP.

Thus, contrary to what the game tells you, the superior tactical choice is to come in immediately, bring your superior force against the geth to defeat them in detail while simultaneously preserving the remnants of an allied fleet, and THEN take on the mechanical demi-god by itself.

All of which ignores the fact that Sovereign being locked out of the controls was only temporary. The program Vigil gave Shepard would only scramble the Citadel's systems. Sovereign would be able to dump the junk data and eventually resume opening the Citadel relay. Vigil's hope was for that small window of opportunity to be enough to destroy sovereign...which supports the decision to bring as much firepower to bear on it as soon as possible. Dividing your forces on a side engagement you have no way of predicting the outcome of only multiplies your uncertainty of taking down Sovereign.

Everything about those scenes in the game suggests that the time window for that is not particularly narrow. Shepard casually walks down to the controls, hears out his squadmates on their opinion, hears out Joker. Nothing at this point in the game is rushed.

[marshalleck]

Warlocomotf wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

One weapon? Hardly. The dreadnaughts have defensive weapons for close quarter combat/defense.

Which is my point. At the time of making the decision we have no information that suggests that the Destiny Ascension's weapons are offline. The only information we have is that it's getting overwhelmed.

My argument is that, according to the data we have, saving the Destiny Ascension could be a very good idea. Not only because to the best of our knowledge, it's still in fighting condition; but also because any Geth you shoot down on the way to Sovereign is Geth you won't have to worry about attacking you from behind once attacking Sovereign.

Shepard as a seasoned naval commander should know a thing or two about warship weapon capabilities. The Destiny Ascension was attempting to evacuate the Council, it was overwhelmed by geth and its shields failing, which would suggest that its defensive weaponry was on the verge of failure as well. Which would leave only its main gun, and that's only useful if the DA has room to maneuver and obtain a firing solution on Sovereign which won't impact any of the debris or other friendlies and cause the slug to go careening off course.

Again--dreadnoughts are long-range combatants.

[marshalleck]

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Here's a tactical thought on saving the Destiny Ascension- you have a mechanical god-ship enclosed inside the citadel arms, and the remains of a geth fleet waiting outside, destroying what remains of the Citadel Defense Fleet. The 5th fleet waits in reserve. The arms will open soon, allowing attacks on the mechanical god.

Realistically, the best choice is to bring in the fleet immediately. As things stand, the enemy forces are divided- part inside, part outside. If you bring the fleet in now, you have to fight the geth fleet. If you wait, you STILL have to fight the geth fleet, and now the reaper is BACKING THEM UP.

Thus, contrary to what the game tells you, the superior tactical choice is to come in immediately, bring your superior force against the geth to defeat them in detail while simultaneously preserving the remnants of an allied fleet, and THEN take on the mechanical demi-god by itself.

All of which ignores the fact that Sovereign being locked out of the controls was only temporary. The program Vigil gave Shepard would only scramble the Citadel's systems. Sovereign would be able to dump the junk data and eventually resume opening the Citadel relay. Vigil's hope was for that small window of opportunity to be enough to destroy sovereign...which supports the decision to bring as much firepower to bear on it as soon as possible. Dividing your forces on a side engagement you have no way of predicting the outcome of only multiplies your uncertainty of taking down Sovereign.

Everything about those scenes in the game suggests that the time window for that is not particularly narrow. Shepard casually walks down to the controls, hears out his squadmates on their opinion, hears out Joker. Nothing at this point in the game is rushed.

Vigil tells you the program is only temporary. If the developers didn't want us to think time was of the essence, they never would have made this a decision in the first place. 

[Logical Escape]

marshalleck wrote...
 Vigil tells you the program is only temporary. If the developers didn't want us to think time was of the essence, they never would have made this a decision in the first place. 

It is temporary, but it's not a frantic temporary.  The time window was at least long enough for Shepard to get outside input without rushing.  It's not like other time-based tasked, in which Shepard is basically rushing as fast as s/he can, e.g. with Arrival DLC.

[Zu Long]

marshalleck wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Here's a tactical thought on saving the Destiny Ascension- you have a mechanical god-ship enclosed inside the citadel arms, and the remains of a geth fleet waiting outside, destroying what remains of the Citadel Defense Fleet. The 5th fleet waits in reserve. The arms will open soon, allowing attacks on the mechanical god.

Realistically, the best choice is to bring in the fleet immediately. As things stand, the enemy forces are divided- part inside, part outside. If you bring the fleet in now, you have to fight the geth fleet. If you wait, you STILL have to fight the geth fleet, and now the reaper is BACKING THEM UP.

Thus, contrary to what the game tells you, the superior tactical choice is to come in immediately, bring your superior force against the geth to defeat them in detail while simultaneously preserving the remnants of an allied fleet, and THEN take on the mechanical demi-god by itself.

All of which ignores the fact that Sovereign being locked out of the controls was only temporary. The program Vigil gave Shepard would only scramble the Citadel's systems. Sovereign would be able to dump the junk data and eventually resume opening the Citadel relay. Vigil's hope was for that small window of opportunity to be enough to destroy sovereign...which supports the decision to bring as much firepower to bear on it as soon as possible. Dividing your forces on a side engagement you have no way of predicting the outcome of only multiplies your uncertainty of taking down Sovereign.

Which in turn ignores that you are going to have to fight though the geth to reach Sovereign either way--they are between the Citadel and the mass relay. Trying to blow past them to get at Sovereign would be suicidal and ineffective, as they would take you apart on the way by. Since you have to fight them either way, the tactically sound choice is to fight them divided rather than together, with the full might of the forces available to you.

Time is less of a factor than you make it out to be. It's going to take time for the citadel arms to open any way, so if Vigil's program doesn't last at least that long, you're all dead regardless.

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

Vigil tells you the program is only temporary. If the developers didn't want us to think time was of the essence, they never would have made this a decision in the first place. 

Yes he does, but he places absolutely 0 emphasis on this fact. Bioware isn't terrible at making things seem urgent, both on Ilos and Virmire they do a great job at displaying the urgency of reaching the Conduit / Getting back to whomever you decide to let live. If there was great urgency here, it would have been portrayed so.

[marshalleck]

Logical Escape wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
 Vigil tells you the program is only temporary. If the developers didn't want us to think time was of the essence, they never would have made this a decision in the first place. 

It is temporary, but it's not a frantic temporary.  The time window was at least long enough for Shepard to get outside input without rushing.  It's not like other time-based tasked, in which Shepard is basically rushing as fast as s/he can, e.g. with Arrival DLC.

There's nothing to suggest that the fleet would be finished up with the geth in time to get at Sovereign as soon as it's exposed. I mean, I suppose you could point to the squadmate who urges you to save the Destiny. But I could counter with the other squadmate who suggests reserving your full strength for Sovereign. So that would be useless.

[marshalleck]

Zu Long wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Here's a tactical thought on saving the Destiny Ascension- you have a mechanical god-ship enclosed inside the citadel arms, and the remains of a geth fleet waiting outside, destroying what remains of the Citadel Defense Fleet. The 5th fleet waits in reserve. The arms will open soon, allowing attacks on the mechanical god.

Realistically, the best choice is to bring in the fleet immediately. As things stand, the enemy forces are divided- part inside, part outside. If you bring the fleet in now, you have to fight the geth fleet. If you wait, you STILL have to fight the geth fleet, and now the reaper is BACKING THEM UP.

Thus, contrary to what the game tells you, the superior tactical choice is to come in immediately, bring your superior force against the geth to defeat them in detail while simultaneously preserving the remnants of an allied fleet, and THEN take on the mechanical demi-god by itself.

All of which ignores the fact that Sovereign being locked out of the controls was only temporary. The program Vigil gave Shepard would only scramble the Citadel's systems. Sovereign would be able to dump the junk data and eventually resume opening the Citadel relay. Vigil's hope was for that small window of opportunity to be enough to destroy sovereign...which supports the decision to bring as much firepower to bear on it as soon as possible. Dividing your forces on a side engagement you have no way of predicting the outcome of only multiplies your uncertainty of taking down Sovereign.

Which in turn ignores that you are going to have to fight though the geth to reach Sovereign either way--they are between the Citadel and the mass relay. Trying to blow past them to get at Sovereign would be suicidal and ineffective, as they would take you apart on the way by. Since you have to fight them either way, the tactically sound choice is to fight them divided rather than together, with the full might of the forces available to you.

Time is less of a factor than you make it out to be. It's going to take time for the citadel arms to open any way, so if Vigil's program doesn't last at least that long, you're all dead regardless.

Nope, you're making all of this up. The geth have left the citadel to pursue the Destiny.

[marshalleck]

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Vigil tells you the program is only temporary. If the developers didn't want us to think time was of the essence, they never would have made this a decision in the first place. 

Yes he does, but he places absolutely 0 emphasis on this fact. Bioware isn't terrible at making things seem urgent, both on Ilos and Virmire they do a great job at displaying the urgency of reaching the Conduit / Getting back to whomever you decide to let live. If there was great urgency here, it would have been portrayed so.

I think it's intended to be urgent enough that the decision to focus on Sovereign (either out of practicality or spite for the Council) is not immediately nullified. I mean, I understand that Paragons/Light side/whatever are accustomed to always having things go their way, but that doesn't mean other approaches are simply wrong.

[Phaedon]

Because some shades of renegade are machiavellian.

Do anything for personal profit. I can't think of a single real pro-human decision that doesn't screw up other races.

EDIT: Focusing on Sovereign is not renegade, btw.

Modifié par Phaedon, 17 août 2011 - 08:01 .

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Here's a tactical thought on saving the Destiny Ascension- you have a mechanical god-ship enclosed inside the citadel arms, and the remains of a geth fleet waiting outside, destroying what remains of the Citadel Defense Fleet. The 5th fleet waits in reserve. The arms will open soon, allowing attacks on the mechanical god.

Realistically, the best choice is to bring in the fleet immediately. As things stand, the enemy forces are divided- part inside, part outside. If you bring the fleet in now, you have to fight the geth fleet. If you wait, you STILL have to fight the geth fleet, and now the reaper is BACKING THEM UP.

Thus, contrary to what the game tells you, the superior tactical choice is to come in immediately, bring your superior force against the geth to defeat them in detail while simultaneously preserving the remnants of an allied fleet, and THEN take on the mechanical demi-god by itself.

All of which ignores the fact that Sovereign being locked out of the controls was only temporary. The program Vigil gave Shepard would only scramble the Citadel's systems. Sovereign would be able to dump the junk data and eventually resume opening the Citadel relay. Vigil's hope was for that small window of opportunity to be enough to destroy sovereign...which supports the decision to bring as much firepower to bear on it as soon as possible. Dividing your forces on a side engagement you have no way of predicting the outcome of only multiplies your uncertainty of taking down Sovereign.

Which in turn ignores that you are going to have to fight though the geth to reach Sovereign either way--they are between the Citadel and the mass relay. Trying to blow past them to get at Sovereign would be suicidal and ineffective, as they would take you apart on the way by. Since you have to fight them either way, the tactically sound choice is to fight them divided rather than together, with the full might of the forces available to you.

Time is less of a factor than you make it out to be. It's going to take time for the citadel arms to open any way, so if Vigil's program doesn't last at least that long, you're all dead regardless.

Nope, you're making all of this up. The geth have left the citadel to pursue the Destiny.

Nope, you're making all of this up, the Geth and Destiny Ascension are right outside:

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

Because some shades of renegade are machiavellian.

Do anything for personal profit. I can't think of a single real pro-human decision that doesn't screw up other races.

Not murdering all the Feros colonists?

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Vigil tells you the program is only temporary. If the developers didn't want us to think time was of the essence, they never would have made this a decision in the first place. 

Yes he does, but he places absolutely 0 emphasis on this fact. Bioware isn't terrible at making things seem urgent, both on Ilos and Virmire they do a great job at displaying the urgency of reaching the Conduit / Getting back to whomever you decide to let live. If there was great urgency here, it would have been portrayed so.

I think it's intended to be urgent enough that the decision to focus on Sovereign (either out of practicality or spite for the Council) is not immediately nullified. I mean, I understand that Paragons/Light side/whatever are accustomed to always having things go their way, but that doesn't mean other approaches are simply wrong.

It also does not mean the Paragon approach is automatically inferiour.
There are visible benefits and downsides to each approach, as well as hidden downsides and benefits.

I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong- I'm saying I've made a value assessment of my options that was based on more than "this is blue". I've considered possible ups and downs.

Being a renegade is not (usually) being irrational, but it is in fact perfectly possible to be a rational paragon throughout almost the entire game also.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

marshalleck wrote...
 that doesn't mean other approaches are simply wrong.

I wish you could bestow upon the renegades this bit of knowledge.

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
Not murdering all the Feros colonists?

That's not a pro-human decision.

You will either be a d!ck and kill the colonists regardless of race (I don't have time for this!!1!one!) which are some shades of renegade, or you will save everyone (Although done by both renegades and paragons, the game assumes that you are doing it because you have ethics).

Besides, the colony was corporate-funded. Humanity wouldn't really lose much if they were wiped out.

[marshalleck]

Warlocomotf wrote...

Nope, you're making all of this up, the Geth and Destiny Ascension are right outside:

They are clearly NOT right outside. Early in the game you can see the Destiny Ascension flying through the ward arms. It's a large ship, but the Citadel is even larger. There was plenty of clearance for it to cruise through. In the footage there, the Destiny appears much larger than the Citadel indicating it must be some distance away. The other person's comment that the Fifth Fleet has to fly through the geth to get to the Citadel is completely unfounded by anything we can see in the game. And in fact, as they don't fly through the geth if you tell them to hang back, it's clearly fabrication.

[marshalleck]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
 that doesn't mean other approaches are simply wrong.

I wish you could bestow upon the renegades this bit of knowledge.

Why should I care to?

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Because some shades of renegade are machiavellian.

Do anything for personal profit. I can't think of a single real pro-human decision that doesn't screw up other races.

Not murdering all the Feros colonists?

I see renegade's priorities something like this:
Self > Humans > Crew > Rest

A renegade is pro-human, and if he can further the cause for humans at the cost of aliens- he'll usually do it.
But if humans are threatening him? He'll have no second thoughts about killing them.

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Not murdering all the Feros colonists?

That's not a pro-human decision.

You will either be a d!ck and kill the colonists regardless of race (I don't have time for this!!1!one!) which are some shades of renegade, or you will save everyone (Although done by both renegades and paragons, the game assumes that you are doing it because you have ethics).

Besides, the colony was corporate-funded. Humanity wouldn't really lose much if they were wiped out.

You didn't ask for a paragon or renegade example. You asked for a pro-human example. I gave you one.

Saving a human colony with limited human casualties, and "encouraging" ExoGeni to reinvest in Feros is pro-human. It doesn't harm any of the other species. There's your example.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 08:10 .

[CroGamer002]

I have Renegade that is not pro-human and Paragon that is.