708 réponses à ce sujet

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Nope, you're making all of this up, the Geth and Destiny Ascension are right outside:

They are clearly NOT right outside. Early in the game you can see the Destiny Ascension flying through the ward arms. It's a large ship, but the Citadel is even larger. There was plenty of clearance for it to cruise through. In the footage there, the Destiny appears much larger than the Citadel indicating it must be some distance away. The other person's comment that the Fifth Fleet has to fly through the geth to get to the Citadel is completely unfounded by anything we can see in the game. And in fact, as they don't fly through the geth if you tell them to hang back, it's clearly fabrication.

Erm, when they finish saving the destiny ascension, the door opens roughly 2 feet away from them. See 2:05 - 2:15

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Mesina2 wrote...

I have Renegade that is not pro-human and Paragon that is.

c-c-c-c-combo breaker!

[marshalleck]

Warlocomotf wrote...

A renegade is pro-human, and if he can further the cause for humans at the cost of aliens- he'll usually do it.
But if humans are threatening him? He'll have no second thoughts about killing them.

A renegade is whatever the player wants it to be. It's possible to go through the game being an absolute dick to every human in the game and still have a much higher renegade score than paragon.

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
You didn't ask for a paragon or renegade example. You asked for a pro-human example. I gave you one.

Saving a human colony with limited human casualties, and "encouraging" ExoGeni to reinvest in Feros is pro-human. It doesn't harm any of the other species. There's your example.

But it isn't pro-human in any way. ExoGeni is "is an interstellar company specialising in planetary exploration and colonisation." Where does it say that the shareholders are all human? It has just created a series of corporate, human-populated colonies.

This is about saving some lives, not helping humanity or not. Besides, afaik, the fact that people survive is negative for ExoGeni because now they'll have to testify in court for their crimes.

[marshalleck]

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Nope, you're making all of this up, the Geth and Destiny Ascension are right outside:

They are clearly NOT right outside. Early in the game you can see the Destiny Ascension flying through the ward arms. It's a large ship, but the Citadel is even larger. There was plenty of clearance for it to cruise through. In the footage there, the Destiny appears much larger than the Citadel indicating it must be some distance away. The other person's comment that the Fifth Fleet has to fly through the geth to get to the Citadel is completely unfounded by anything we can see in the game. And in fact, as they don't fly through the geth if you tell them to hang back, it's clearly fabrication.

Erm, when they finish saving the destiny ascension, the door opens roughly 2 feet away from them. See 2:05 - 2:15

Not seeing it. When the arms begin to open, the Normandy (which seems to be taking a lead position) has already left the DA behind.

[Zu Long]

marshalleck wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Here's a tactical thought on saving the Destiny Ascension- you have a mechanical god-ship enclosed inside the citadel arms, and the remains of a geth fleet waiting outside, destroying what remains of the Citadel Defense Fleet. The 5th fleet waits in reserve. The arms will open soon, allowing attacks on the mechanical god.

Realistically, the best choice is to bring in the fleet immediately. As things stand, the enemy forces are divided- part inside, part outside. If you bring the fleet in now, you have to fight the geth fleet. If you wait, you STILL have to fight the geth fleet, and now the reaper is BACKING THEM UP.

Thus, contrary to what the game tells you, the superior tactical choice is to come in immediately, bring your superior force against the geth to defeat them in detail while simultaneously preserving the remnants of an allied fleet, and THEN take on the mechanical demi-god by itself.

All of which ignores the fact that Sovereign being locked out of the controls was only temporary. The program Vigil gave Shepard would only scramble the Citadel's systems. Sovereign would be able to dump the junk data and eventually resume opening the Citadel relay. Vigil's hope was for that small window of opportunity to be enough to destroy sovereign...which supports the decision to bring as much firepower to bear on it as soon as possible. Dividing your forces on a side engagement you have no way of predicting the outcome of only multiplies your uncertainty of taking down Sovereign.

Which in turn ignores that you are going to have to fight though the geth to reach Sovereign either way--they are between the Citadel and the mass relay. Trying to blow past them to get at Sovereign would be suicidal and ineffective, as they would take you apart on the way by. Since you have to fight them either way, the tactically sound choice is to fight them divided rather than together, with the full might of the forces available to you.

Time is less of a factor than you make it out to be. It's going to take time for the citadel arms to open any way, so if Vigil's program doesn't last at least that long, you're all dead regardless.

Nope, you're making all of this up. The geth have left the citadel to pursue the Destiny.

Making it up? I think not. Let's review the video evidence, paragon option, shall we?

Human fleet arrives at relay, human fleet blows away the geth attacking the DA. human fleet continues PAST DA to the Citadel which then opens. You can clearly see this at 2:04 in the video.

Now the other way around, renegade option. At 2:16 we see the human fleet passing by not very far away while the DA blows up. Now in a real battle what does a real geth fleet do after that? They come in on the tails of the human fleet and take it apart from the rear, that's what they do.

That's the tactical reality of the situation.

Interestingly watching the videos, time isn't thrown in as a consideration. It is purely a question of sacrificing lives and firepower for the council's survival.

Modifié par Zu Long, 17 août 2011 - 08:17 .

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
You didn't ask for a paragon or renegade example. You asked for a pro-human example. I gave you one.

Saving a human colony with limited human casualties, and "encouraging" ExoGeni to reinvest in Feros is pro-human. It doesn't harm any of the other species. There's your example.

But it isn't pro-human in any way. ExoGeni is "is an interstellar company specialising in planetary exploration and colonisation." Where does it say that the shareholders are all human? It has just created a series of corporate, human-populated colonies.

This is about saving some lives, not helping humanity or not. Besides, afaik, the fact that people survive is negative for ExoGeni because now they'll have to testify in court for their crimes.

What do you think humanity is? It's all the humans on Earth and spread out amongst her colonies. Helping the colonists of Feros recover and thrive is a pro-human action--acting in the favor of human interests. Namely, in this case, the colony of Feros.

I think you just can't deal with the fact that it's possible to be pro-human without being anti-alien.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 08:18 .

[Phaedon]

Besides, as I said, you get awarded paragon points for saving lives, obviously, not for being pro-human there.

In any case, that kind of statement justifies my argument I think. You are awarded renegade points for the pro-human decisions that screw other races, because that's renegade philosophy by design.

[Warlocomotf]

marshalleck wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Warlocomotf wrote...

Nope, you're making all of this up, the Geth and Destiny Ascension are right outside:

They are clearly NOT right outside. Early in the game you can see the Destiny Ascension flying through the ward arms. It's a large ship, but the Citadel is even larger. There was plenty of clearance for it to cruise through. In the footage there, the Destiny appears much larger than the Citadel indicating it must be some distance away. The other person's comment that the Fifth Fleet has to fly through the geth to get to the Citadel is completely unfounded by anything we can see in the game. And in fact, as they don't fly through the geth if you tell them to hang back, it's clearly fabrication.

Erm, when they finish saving the destiny ascension, the door opens roughly 2 feet away from them. See 2:05 - 2:15

Not seeing it. When the arms begin to open, the Normandy (which seems to be taking a lead position) has already left the DA behind.

Yes, 2 feet is an exageration. But a few hundred feet is hardly a mean feet for a space ship. Point in case, it's nearby- within seconds of where the Destiny Ascension is.

[marshalleck]

So let me get this straight--saving the predominantly human colonists of Feros and reinvigorating their colony is not a pro-human action because it award blue points. That's what you're saying.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 08:21 .

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
What do you think humanity is? It's all the humans on Earth and spread out amongst her colonies. Helping the colonists of Feros recover and thrive is a pro-human action--acting in the favor of human interests. Namely, in this case, the colony of Feros.

Umm, you saved the colonists because they were human? ...right.

Yeah, no, that's just irregular. That's like romancing Ashley to protect human interests, and not have her romance an alien instead. The game doesn't award you with paragon points for being pro-human, but for saving lives.

Besides, repeating "human interests" does in no way prove your argument.
What human interests? How is a colony made by a non-Alliance corporation who makes money for itself (which probably has a lot alien shareholders) pro-human? I thought that you were okay with killing humans for the "greater interests of humanity"?

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

Besides, as I said, you get awarded paragon points for saving lives, obviously, not for being pro-human there.

In any case, that kind of statement justifies my argument I think. You are awarded renegade points for the pro-human decisions that screw other races, because that's renegade philosophy by design.

How is destroying Geth Heretics pro-human decision, while rewriting not?

[Hydralisk]

Agamo45 wrote...

redneckwonderland wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

Yes, even more so than if just pro-white.

I'm not going to talk about politics, take your precious liberalism elsewhere.

Then why the hell did you write "liberal" in the OP, thats just asking for trouble.

BTW if you really didn't want to talk about politics you wouldn't say liberalism in a way that makes it sound like you dislike Liberals.

[Zu Long]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

This topic was doomed to to dissolve into Paragon vs Renegade debate from the very beginning. And it is not a good debate.

*grabs popcorn*

*munchmunch*

I dunno, it's been fun so far.

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...

So let me get this straight--saving the colonists of Feros and reinvigorating their colony is not a pro-human action because it award blue points. That's what you're saying.

Uh.

An action is what you want it to be. You may as well consider romancing Tali a paragon option because you do it as charity, I don't know.

The game however, clearly does not award you "blue points" for being pro-human. It awards you "blue points" for saving lives.

And it rewards you with "red points" for doing stuff that the game considers to be for advancing a particular group and screwing with all of the rest.

The entire OP is stupid anyway, though the ulterior motives of the thread are easily seen from the first page anyway.
An action may be paragon or renegade, that's you who decides how it works.  The game just gives you some points if it considers your action  paragon or renegade. You don't have to agree with the game.

[Phaedon]

Mesina2 wrote...
How is destroying Geth Heretics pro-human decision, while rewriting not?

Reverse logic?

Renegade =/= pro-human (necessarily, this is why what the OP says is ridiculous)

And

Pro-human =/= Renegade (as long as you don't screw with everyone else to get what you want)

But,

Screwing up with everyone and helping only humanity = Some shades of Renegade.

[CroGamer002]

marshalleck wrote...

So let me get this straight--saving the predominantly human colonists of Feros and reinvigorating their colony is not a pro-human action because it award blue points. That's what you're saying.

I agree, that statement is kinda dumb Phaedon.


But this is still not pro-human decision to save colonist.
You have a way to save most of them and still be little reckless and kill few of them, you're just a dick for not saving them and it doesn't make you pro-human.

Also you have to either convince that ExoGeni guy to help colonist or shot him dead so that ExoGeni can leave them alone.

So me pleasing him to help those colonists is peo-human then or moral decision?

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
What do you think humanity is? It's all the humans on Earth and spread out amongst her colonies. Helping the colonists of Feros recover and thrive is a pro-human action--acting in the favor of human interests. Namely, in this case, the colony of Feros.

Umm, you saved the colonists because they were human? ...right.

Yeah, no, that's just irregular. That's like romancing Ashley to protect human interests, and not have her romance an alien instead. The game doesn't award you with paragon points for being pro-human, but for saving lives.

Besides, repeating "human interests" does in no way prove your argument.
What human interests? How is a colony made by a non-Alliance corporation who makes money for itself (which probably has a lot alien shareholders) pro-human? I thought that you were okay with killing humans for the "greater interests of humanity"?

ExoGeni is an Alliance corporation. I don't know where you're getting your info from, but I seem to recall they're responsible for establishing several human colonies in addition to the one on Feros. Saving the colony directly serves human interests by helping to establish another thriving human colony in the galaxy.

You asked for an example of a pro-human action which is not at the detriment of any other race. I gave you one. You're now pulling out all kinds of mental gymnastics to move the goalposts and deny the fact that Shepard can take pro-human actions without harming aliens in the process. This fits your MO perfectly, Phaedon.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 08:28 .

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
How is destroying Geth Heretics pro-human decision, while rewriting not?

Reverse logic?

Renegade =/= pro-human (necessarily, this is why what the OP says is ridiculous)

And

Pro-human =/= Renegade (as long as you don't screw with everyone else to get what you want)

But,

Screwing up with everyone and helping only humanity = Some shades of Renegade.

You could have word that better.

[marshalleck]

Mesina2 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

So let me get this straight--saving the predominantly human colonists of Feros and reinvigorating their colony is not a pro-human action because it award blue points. That's what you're saying.

I agree, that statement is kinda dumb Phaedon.


But this is still not pro-human decision to save colonist.
You have a way to save most of them and still be little reckless and kill few of them, you're just a dick for not saving them and it doesn't make you pro-human.

Also you have to either convince that ExoGeni guy to help colonist or shot him dead so that ExoGeni can leave them alone.

So me pleasing him to help those colonists is peo-human then or moral decision?

Saving the colonists is motivated by whatever you want it to be. I reject this idea that to be pro-human, one must be staunchly renegade. Or that to be renegade, one must be pro-human.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 08:33 .

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
ExoGeni is an Alliance corporation. I don't know where you're getting your info from, but I seem to recall they're responsible for establishing several human colonies in addition to the one on Feros.

That doesn't make them an Alliance corporation, and not a human one either. It's just one of the things they do. You have no idea if they also make salarian colonies, if they have alien shareholders, or if they are part of the Alliance.
If they are, then they really don't seem to allow a lot of clearance to the Alliance.

You asked for an example of a pro-human action which is not at the detriment of any other race. I gave you one. You're now pulling out all kinds of mental gymnastics to move the goalposts and deny the fact that Shepard can take pro-human actions without harming aliens in the process. This fits your MO perfectly, Phaedon.

Can't prove an argument? Start flaming.

Even if you hadn't failed to prove your speculation, this is my original post:

Phaedon wrote...

Because some shades of renegade are machiavellian.

Do anything for personal profit. I can't think of a single real pro-human decision that doesn't screw up other races.

EDIT: Focusing on Sovereign is not renegade, btw.

Pro-human=/=Renegade. End of story.

REAL (real pro-human decision, real) pro-human decisions so far had to do with screwing with other groups for personal profit.

That's why you get red points. Not because pro-human is renegade. That's retarded.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

This topic was doomed to to dissolve into Paragon vs Renegade debate from the very beginning. And it is not a good debate.

*grabs popcorn*

*munchmunch*

I dunno, it's been fun so far.

That's what the popcorn is for. If it were better, I would be discussing instead.

The buttery goodness.

Anything remotely sounding like it could be about morality gets turned into P v R

And every debate has the same central players to it,sometimes some of those players just sit and watch though.

[Zu Long]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

This topic was doomed to to dissolve into Paragon vs Renegade debate from the very beginning. And it is not a good debate.

*grabs popcorn*

*munchmunch*

I dunno, it's been fun so far.

That's what the popcorn is for. If it were better, I would be discussing instead.

The buttery goodness.

Anything remotely sounding like it could be about morality gets turned into P v R

And every debate has the same central players to it,sometimes some of those players just sit and watch though.

Meh. I only joined in for the tactical consideration of the citadel battle because I'm a war games junkie. As my sig indicates, I know which end of the P v R debate I'm on, so debating that seems pointless.