708 réponses à ce sujet

[Arppis]

Causing pain and suffering in a lot of people just to get to your goal does cause people to resent you. Anyone with sense of empathy knows this. When you look at renegade actions, it's no wonder they get "punished".

[KotorEffect3]

MacCready wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

Yes

Not to get political but anti-americanism pisses me off.

You gimp! You tell me to keep shut about politics (and I did) so the thread wouldn't be derailed off topic, and now you're bringing up one of my comments again and going off topic, again! hypocritical much?

Anyway, back on topic.

So The Alliance invaded The Batarians for Element Zero despite their claim that they did it in the name of spreading galactic peace. The Batarians, slightly pissed off about their homeworld being reduced to a warzone, decide to retaliate by attacking The Alliance on their home turf and blowing up their financial district. So The Alliance call this 'terrorism', despite when they do it it's called 'defending democracy', even if it means carpet bombing a Batarian orphanage. Then The Alliance have the cheek to call themselves the victims?!

F*cking Ameri.... er, Alliance!

Don't you have some protest to go to or something?

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I find it difficult to see how you're being "punished," Saphra.

I think you missed the storm of "Paragon/Renegade imbalance" threads that turned up a couple of months ago.

I've seen several of them. I disagree.

[BubbleSauce]

Arppis wrote...

Causing pain and suffering in a lot of people just to get to your goal does cause people to resent you. Anyone with sense of empathy knows this. When you look at renegade actions, it's no wonder they get "punished".

^This exactly, look at your actions, you'll do anything to get the job done no matter what the cost. how are renegade players any better than saren?

[Xilizhra]

Then you must have seen the threads but never read any of them.

Reading would help.

\\
I accept that Renegades get less total content. However, I consider it a fallacy that you're somehow being punished. In fact, I suspect the main reason you don't have angry enemies coming after you is because Bioware didn't want to punish Renegade players.

[Bad King]

Luc0s wrote...

You committed genocide on the rachni, so obviously no extra ally (or extra enemy) for you. You don't honestlye expect the rachni to magically return after exterminating them do you? Get real.

You destroyed the genophage data, so obviously you won't get the option to cure the Krogan. It's completely logical. Or do you honestly expect a deus-ex machina that still magically cures the krogan?

You killed the Feros colonists, so obviously no colonists to thank you. Too bad, I guess you should have thought twice before killing every single colonist.

I could go on and on and on. But basically, it's just damn obvious that when you BLOW EVERYTHING UP and KILL EVERYONE, that eventually there is nothing left. Honestly, what did you expect? Maybe next time you play Mass Effect, you shouldn't just blow everything up if you don't want to get "cheated out of content". Maybe let a few people live for a change?

Try to be a bit more imaginative. All the scenarios you put forward could result in alternative content. For example killing the rachni queen could result in extra respect from the Krogan on Tuchanka in ME2 and influence your relationship with them. Destroying the genophage data could lead to a different relationship with Mordin and the salarians in ME3. And destroying the Feros colony could lead to an interesting encounter with a colonist grieving the death of his/her friends and put Shepard in a position where he must try and justify what he did. etc. etc.

Long story short there are plenty of ways for renegade decisions to result in extra content.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then you must have seen the threads but never read any of them.

Reading would help.

I accept that Renegades get less total content. However, I consider it a fallacy that you're somehow being punished.

In a sense, I agree with that. I don't think Bioware is out there to punish any players. I think they're just a little bit lazy and mostly busy. They only have so much time to make the game, only so much money, and only so much disc space. In the end, for whatever reason, they decided to first handle Paragon imports and then do Renegade imports. However they then run out of time/discspace/money and the Renegade imports largely get left out.

However for the player it might as well be punishment. You played a Renegade? Then you wasted your time because your import will in many cases be identical to a non-import game in the sequel. Fun.

That being the case, it may be inevitable. Paragons simply leave more people alive to use again; Renegade playthroughs would need a bunch of totally new people to be invented for just that playthrough.

[BP20125810]

Renegade = You don't need any help
Paragon = You gather help from others.

That's my take on it.

[ddv.rsa]

Luc0s wrote...

I always love your pro-Renegade and anti-Paragon propaganda. You do realize that you're exaggerating and that your exaggeration is not even remotely true, right?

Paragons frequently take huge, impractical risks that magically never seem to go wrong. In fact they're always rewarded handsomely. Some examples:

 * Throwing away Alliance ships in an attempt to save the Council
 * Letting Helena Blake go free
 * Letting the Rachni Queen go free
 * Letting the Asari on Feros go free
 * Activating Grunt & Legion
 * Giving Tali classified intel
 * Letting Balak go free

 Major things still to come, but probably extremely rewarding to paragons:
 * Keeping the genophage cure data
 * Destroying the collector base
 * Destroying Project Overlord
 * Keeping the greybox

In constrast to paragons who are usually rewarded, the best a renegade can hope for is nothing happening. At worst they're punished. I want renegades to get the better result sometimes. I also want paragons to pay for their idealism every now and again.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 17 août 2011 - 02:53 .

[TobyHasEyes]

Luc0s wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I always figured "at any cost" referred to something in the story. I didn't know Mass Effect's moralities were intended to break the 4th wall.

Mass Effect doen't break the 4th wall, but no matter how many times I explain this, you just won't listen.

You blow everything up and kill everyone. Obviously the stuff you destroyed won't return in later games. That's just super obvious. That's the cost that the Renegade has to pay for it's ruthlessness and it's totally ingame. 

 I'm no fan of Saphra Deden, but what he(or she) is asking for isn't ridiculous or game breaking
 
 Take the decision to activate Legion or to sell him to Cerberus. It would be good in-game content if the Renegade choice to sell Legion to Cerberus meant that you were rewarded with some unique armor/weapon or something similar. Even though that content would in no way match up to the content of having Legion as a character, it would give the decision weight AND allow those who took either path to get some exclusive content

 Acknowledgement from the Krogan thanks to your killing of the Rachni would also make sense; maybe you don't get the Krogan but yes you get some exclusive content

 For me it doesn't have to mean that every time you make a choice you know you will get equal content either way; you can have the equivalent of 'your decision turned out wrong', but giving some content either way so as to support different playthroughs would be good

[Aaleel]

The only extra content I can think of is the Conrad Verner quest, the Detective Parsini quest, and seeing the Asari who tells you about the Rachni queen.

[Bad King]

Luc0s wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

You committed genocide on the rachni, so obviously no extra ally (or extra enemy) for you. You don't honestlye expect the rachni to magically return after exterminating them do you? Get real.

You destroyed the genophage data, so obviously you won't get the option to cure the Krogan. It's completely logical. Or do you honestly expect a deus-ex machina that still magically cures the krogan?

You killed the Feros colonists, so obviously no colonists to thank you. Too bad, I guess you should have thought twice before killing every single colonist.

I could go on and on and on. But basically, it's just damn obvious that when you BLOW EVERYTHING UP and KILL EVERYONE, that eventually there is nothing left. Honestly, what did you expect? Maybe next time you play Mass Effect, you shouldn't just blow everything up if you don't want to get "cheated out of content". Maybe let a few people live for a change?

Try to be a bit more imaginative. All the scenarios you put forward could result in alternative content. For example killing the rachni queen could result in extra respect from the Krogan on Tuchanka in ME2 and influence your relationship with them. Destroying the genophage data could lead to a different relationship with Mordin and the salarians in ME3. And destroying the Feros colony could lead to an interesting encounter with a colonist grieving the death of his/her friends and put Shepard in a position where he must try and justify what he did. etc. etc.

Long story short there are plenty of ways for renegade decisions to result in extra content.

Okay, and then where is the Paragon extra content?

Because honestly, Paragon players don't get all that much extra content either. Lets be reasonable here, the whole action->result mechanics in Mass Effect are just a bit poor in general.

Saving the council? We just get a rant from the dumb-asses who still deny the reapers. Yeah, really epic extra content (not).

Saving the rachni? We just get a short talk with a strange asari. Wow, big deal (not).

I believe that still counts as extra content and is more substantial than what the renegades get.