708 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

Come to think of it the sacrifice the council decision should actually have humanity/Shepard gain favor with some alien species. I could see the non-citadel species like the Quarians,Krogan and Batarians being delighted to see them gone or at the very least I don't see why they would shed any tears over them

Killing the Rachni Queen and the Council should have made Shepard a hero in the eyes of the Krogan.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Seboist wrote...

Come to think of it the sacrifice the council decision should actually have humanity/Shepard gain favor with some alien species. I could see the non-citadel species like the Quarians,Krogan and Batarians being delighted to see them gone or at the very least I don't see why they would shed any tears over them

Killing the Rachni Queen and the Council should have made Shepard a hero in the eyes of the Krogan.

I guess humans are the only species that  unite in spite of tragedy.

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Shep knows at this point that Sovereign is only the vanguard to an army or Reapers.

What you seemingly fail to understand is that the army of Reapers you are talking about will be pouring into the galaxy RIGHT NOW if Sovereign opens the relay. Sovereign's job is almost done. You have minutes until the Reapers arrive. If they do you can kiss the Council goodbye along with everyone else.

By the way, this is what I'm talking about when I say that the dilemma faced by Shepard in Arrival is exactly the same dilemma s/he faces at the end of ME1. There is absolutely no difference. Either Shepard does what is necessary to prevent the Reaper's immediate arrival or he takes his chances on letting them arrive in the interests of morals and stability.

Of-course in Arrival the developers made the choice for you to spare you the humiliation of Paragon-ing yourself into a game over.

No, there is a difference...the Batarian Hemegony (I don't think I spelt that right) are a seperate council with no inter species alliance or real power, this isn't a question of para vs ren, its a question knowing knowing what to keep intact for the best chances of survival and what's expendable...the batarian system is expendable a untied species council is not.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Seboist wrote...

Come to think of it the sacrifice the council decision should actually have humanity/Shepard gain favor with some alien species. I could see the non-citadel species like the Quarians,Krogan and Batarians being delighted to see them gone or at the very least I don't see why they would shed any tears over them

Killing the Rachni Queen and the Council should have made Shepard a hero in the eyes of the Krogan.

In ME2, we learn that a Human centric council is seeking other alien allies and is succesful.
Yes getting rid of the council trinity opens up new possibilities.

[marshalleck]

Golden Owl wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Shep knows at this point that Sovereign is only the vanguard to an army or Reapers.

What you seemingly fail to understand is that the army of Reapers you are talking about will be pouring into the galaxy RIGHT NOW if Sovereign opens the relay. Sovereign's job is almost done. You have minutes until the Reapers arrive. If they do you can kiss the Council goodbye along with everyone else.

By the way, this is what I'm talking about when I say that the dilemma faced by Shepard in Arrival is exactly the same dilemma s/he faces at the end of ME1. There is absolutely no difference. Either Shepard does what is necessary to prevent the Reaper's immediate arrival or he takes his chances on letting them arrive in the interests of morals and stability.

Of-course in Arrival the developers made the choice for you to spare you the humiliation of Paragon-ing yourself into a game over.

No, there is a difference...the Batarian Hemegony (I don't think I spelt that right) are a seperate council with no inter species alliance or real power, this isn't a question of para vs ren, its a question knowing knowing what to keep intact for the best chances of survival and what's expendable...the batarian system is expendable a untied species council is not.

wow, you're still missing Saphra's point

I'm beginning to think it's intentional

[Warlocomotf]

Sovereign just went through a **** ton of trouble trying to override the Prothean's hacks, if he could just ignore the hack then I'm confident he would never have bothered with it to begin with.

Under normal conditions the Citadel's arms are open, and under normal conditions Sovereign would probably not be reacted to fast enough to shut the arms before sovereign could get inside.

If all it took for Sovereign to get control over the citadel was connecting to it, we would've been screwed long ago. Alas that's not the case- and as such we can safe the council.

Also, the Council- (aside from the Turian who is an ****) is actually a very reasonable bunch. If you bother to actually properly listen to the "evidence" presented to the council- they really do have very little 'evidence' to go on in ME1 when it comes to "Reapers". Hell, if you think about it- the evidence Tali had to prove Saren had gone rogue was incredibly questionable to begin with, the recording could have been doctored in any number of ways, or could have been very old.

[Golden Owl]

Seboist wrote...


That's essentially what happens in the ME1 Paragon ending with the council sacrificed. Udina talks about the other species looking up to humanity.

How do you figure that.....reasoning?

[Logical Escape]

Seboist wrote...

Come to think of it the sacrifice the council decision should actually have humanity/Shepard gain favor with some alien species. I could see the non-citadel species like the Quarians,Krogan and Batarians being delighted to see them gone or at the very least I don't see why they would shed any tears over them

Killing the Rachni Queen and the Council should have made Shepard a hero in the eyes of the Krogan.

If you were to pursue things solely from a meta-logical point of view, krogan should welcome a new rachni invasion.  The other sentient races would have no choice but to call on them again, and undo the effects of the genophage so the krogan can kick more rachni ass.

[Aaleel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The arm-opening took place at Citadel Control, before Shepard even arrived at the Citadel. Saren then had to go up to the Council Chamber to remove control of the Citadel from the Keepers,

No. The arms opened once Saren reached the command console in the Council chambers.

[u][b]

No, you are partially right. Sovereign got through just as the arms were closing. Shepard had to reach the console to open them again so the fleet could attack Sovereign.

The point is: if only Saren was needed then why did Sovereign dock with the Citadel at all? Why not stay outside and keep annihilating Council ships?

When Saren shuts down the console as you are arriving he says that in moments Sovereign will have full control. So his job is done or nearly-so. Sovereign is directly docked with the station and is manually overiding it. The file you have will give you temporary access.

How long do you think you have? Minutes? Hours? It might only be seconds.

The point is, you don't know. At any moment Sovereign could gain full control and then you're ****ed.

No the arms were already open by that time.  When Saren finally got to the council chamber the arms were actually closing, and that's when Soveriegn made the dash to beat the arms before they closed.

[Omnicrat]

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

If you are an American before you are a human, pretty much.

[Seboist]

Golden Owl wrote...

Seboist wrote...


That's essentially what happens in the ME1 Paragon ending with the council sacrificed. Udina talks about the other species looking up to humanity.

How do you figure that.....reasoning?

It's just like America being the dominant power and funding democratic movements the world over or the Soviet Union supporting communist movements abroad.

It's not a manifest destiny like expansion at the expense of others.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The arm-opening took place at Citadel Control, before Shepard even arrived at the Citadel. Saren then had to go up to the Council Chamber to remove control of the Citadel from the Keepers,

No. The arms opened once Saren reached the command console in the Council chambers.

The room where Saren is seen opening the arms is totally different from the Council Chamber; it's smaller and darker, and there's a comm unit in it begging for a connection to... Citadel Control. Not the Council Chamber.

Also. If Sovereign's victory really was inevitable, it would have just kept plugging away at the hacking job and ignored Shepard. However, Shepard was apparently so important that it possessed Saren and tried to kill her personally.

[Logical Escape]

marshalleck wrote...

wow, you're still missing Saphra's point

I'm beginning to think it's intentional

Saphra's point is that the "logical" thing to do would be to focus on sovereign instead of trying to save the council.  His reasoning is that you shouldn't be a renegade for doing the logical thing.  Well there is a neutral choice that explicitly states "focus on sovereign."

And even if may jeopardize the mission, choosing to try to save innocent lives is a paragon thing to do.  There's no real logic to suggest that leaving them to die is the paragon mission.

[marshalleck]

So we'll just ignore the fact that the developers are telling you the player directly via Vigil that your ability to scramble the Citadel's security protocols and thwart Sovereign is only temporary, and not a permanent, perfect checkmate solution. I guess you have to justify it somehow...

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 02:57 .

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Also. If Sovereign's victory really was inevitable, it would have just kept plugging away at the hacking job and ignored Shepard. However, Shepard was apparently so important that it possessed Saren and tried to kill her personally.

No, Sovereign too was running out of time because by this point Shepad had (temporary) control and had opened the arms back up. This allowed the Alliance fleet to surround Sovereign and start pummelling it. Sovereign is not invincible and so it needed to open the relay ASAP and bring in the Reapers. Towards that end it needed to neutralize Shepard.

To answer your previous post, I think both Sovereign and Saren were necessary. Saren needed to lock the Keepers out and Sovereign needed to lock itself in. The former was reversed and the latter was only half-done, and I think Sovereign was no longer capable of fiddling with the mass relay at all unless Shepard's own efforts were reversed. And to do that, Shepard had to die.

[Omnicrat]

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

Yes, yes and yes. 

Well, that's why you're a degenerate Quisling.

How is thinking people are more important then americans degenerate (which I would REALLY like you to define for me) or making one like a man who wanted to work with ****s so they didn't attack (unless I forget who Quisling was)?

[Golden Owl]

marshalleck wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Shep knows at this point that Sovereign is only the vanguard to an army or Reapers.

What you seemingly fail to understand is that the army of Reapers you are talking about will be pouring into the galaxy RIGHT NOW if Sovereign opens the relay. Sovereign's job is almost done. You have minutes until the Reapers arrive. If they do you can kiss the Council goodbye along with everyone else.

By the way, this is what I'm talking about when I say that the dilemma faced by Shepard in Arrival is exactly the same dilemma s/he faces at the end of ME1. There is absolutely no difference. Either Shepard does what is necessary to prevent the Reaper's immediate arrival or he takes his chances on letting them arrive in the interests of morals and stability.

Of-course in Arrival the developers made the choice for you to spare you the humiliation of Paragon-ing yourself into a game over.

No, there is a difference...the Batarian Hemegony (I don't think I spelt that right) are a seperate council with no inter species alliance or real power, this isn't a question of para vs ren, its a question knowing knowing what to keep intact for the best chances of survival and what's expendable...the batarian system is expendable a untied species council is not.

wow, you're still missing Saphra's point

I'm beginning to think it's intentional

This debate is between myself and Saphra....I in fact do respect Saprha's opinions...not necessairly agree...but I do see his points most of the time...I trust Saphra to debate with me without being a cad or a**hole, if Saphra disagree's with my reasoning he is more than capable of speaking for himself.

[Logical Escape]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...


Saphra's point is that the "logical" thing to do would be to focus on sovereign instead of trying to save the council.  His reasoning is that you shouldn't be a renegade for doing the logical thing.  Well there is a neutral choice that explicitly states "focus on sovereign."

I don't remember saying that.

Then what are you arguing about?  That focusing on sovereign is the "logical" choice?  Who has legitimately argued that it wouldn't be "easier" to focus on sovereign?

Sure, it's logical, but not paragon.

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

So we'll just ignore the fact that the developers are telling you the player directly via Vigil that your ability to scramble the Citadel's security protocols and thwart Sovereign is only temporary, and not a permanent, perfect checkmate solution. I guess you have to justify it somehow...

I hate how the save the council decision is one blind leap of faith that requires the player to invent reasons and do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify it.

It's the same with the destroy the collector base decision where Shepard has no ace up his sleeve or any viable alternative.

[Warlocomotf]

Saphra Deden wrote...

He couldn't override it remotely, but now he's directly connected to the system.

As should be evident from Sovereign actually just... Well, entering the citadel's open arms before they managed to close- it should be obvious that Sovereign could have made that connection any time it would have so desired. Sovereign would have never needed Saren; as the Citadel's arms are open by default.

Sovereign requires both, Saren's "Anti Virus" and the direct connection.

In addition, what "Save the council" does, is open the Citadel's arms and get straight in there to attack Sovereign. It's true that in this process care is taken of the Council- but ultimately everyone at that point is attacking Soverein.

[SkittlesKat96]

Well in the real world if you wanted to support your views that you wanted American/English/European/Black/White/Christian/Jewish/Muslim dominance then you would have to be pretty renegade. That is just the way it is I think.

Mind you the situation is different in Mass Effect.

Whereas if you did what I just said above in the REAL WORLD it would be considered pretty evil/Hitler like/stupid

In Mass Effect though everything is completely different...the Council are buffoons, the other races aren't willing to help each other or work together to stop the Reapers and the one group that actually knows what is going on and is prepared to unite the galaxy is a pro-human group (Cerberus)

So yeah...I just thought I'd point that out there, supporting Cerberus and being pro-human is renegade but it isn't an 'evil' or 'genocidal' choice.

I suppose it is kind of bad that Bioware has to make it like
Pro-human = Renegade
Not pro-human / Alien sympathizer = Paragon

But maybe that is just the way it has to be

[Saaziel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Saaziel wrote...

Vigil says something to the fact that part of the Reaper's plan include the destruction of centralized government; then divide and conquer.

Here are your choices: the centralized government takes a hit or the Reapers pour through the relay, capturing the Citadel and deactivating the mass relay network

Which do you want?

Sheppard is unaware if (S)he'll even get a chance at the citadel ; He could very well die from debris/enemy attacks impacting the citadel . But this is only from a none-meta-gaming perspective.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Saving the Council may indeed help in the long run

There's your "benefit" you were inquiring about.

Saphra Deden wrote...THERE WILL BE NO LONG RUN IF SOVEREIGN WINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nothing Sheppard knows at that point can confirm this.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Let me repeat that again incase you STILL don't get it.


IF SOVEREIGN WINS THERE WILL NOT BE A LONG RUN! IT'S OVER! YOU LOSE! REAPERS WIN! NO ME2, NO ME3!!!!!!!

DO YOU GET IT NOW?????

Sheppard is unaware that there is such a thing as Mass effect 1/2/3, again from a none-meta-gaming point of view.

He knows that Reapers are betting on a surprise attack eliminating the leadership of the species with relay access. He/she can assume that they seldom fought organized resistance before , or if they did , it's enough a threat as to concoct an elaborate "Relay/Citadel" trap specifically design to avoid it.

As i've said before its edging your bets against what Shep knows , what Shep think He/She knows and whether He/She's of any significant importance in that universe.

Modifié par Saaziel, 17 août 2011 - 04:55 .