708 réponses à ce sujet

[Omnicrat]

redneckwonderland wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

Yes, even more so than if just pro-white.

Now, I have to disagree.  Pro-white means you support and oppose people/ideas based upon ones melatonin levels.  Pro-American means you support your country and its beliefs.  In theory, at least.  In practice one could be a **** and call themselves Pro-American, but that is besides the point.

[InkognitoY]

When I think Renegade I think of an overall nice guy, but someone who doesn't take -blam!- from anyone and is a seasoned warrior whose experiences have given him a rough exterior. Like Clint Eastwood.

Unfortunately, Mass Effect says that being Renegade is being a dick. So that;s why I go with Paragon.

[marshalleck]

Golden Owl wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Shep knows at this point that Sovereign is only the vanguard to an army or Reapers.

What you seemingly fail to understand is that the army of Reapers you are talking about will be pouring into the galaxy RIGHT NOW if Sovereign opens the relay. Sovereign's job is almost done. You have minutes until the Reapers arrive. If they do you can kiss the Council goodbye along with everyone else.

By the way, this is what I'm talking about when I say that the dilemma faced by Shepard in Arrival is exactly the same dilemma s/he faces at the end of ME1. There is absolutely no difference. Either Shepard does what is necessary to prevent the Reaper's immediate arrival or he takes his chances on letting them arrive in the interests of morals and stability.

Of-course in Arrival the developers made the choice for you to spare you the humiliation of Paragon-ing yourself into a game over.

No, there is a difference...the Batarian Hemegony (I don't think I spelt that right) are a seperate council with no inter species alliance or real power, this isn't a question of para vs ren, its a question knowing knowing what to keep intact for the best chances of survival and what's expendable...the batarian system is expendable a untied species council is not.

wow, you're still missing Saphra's point

I'm beginning to think it's intentional

This debate is between myself and Saphra....I in fact do respect Saprha's opinions...not necessairly agree...but I do see his points most of the time...I trust Saphra to debate with me without being a cad or a**hole, if Saphra disagree's with my reasoning he is more than capable of speaking for himself.

And I'm perfectly capable of reading the back-and-forth and make observations. You seem to be operating from a position of assuming the Reapers will not succeed in opening the Citadel relay or accessing the Alpha Relay, therefore, going forward which decision will best position us for meeting the Reaper threat. And Saphra is countering you by saying you cannot assume the Reapers won't succeed in accessing one of those relays, which undermines your approach to the decision, since it renders the fundamental assumption unsound.

[Omnicrat]

Agamo45 wrote...

redneckwonderland wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

MacCready wrote...

Put your question in real life terms, for example, change pro-human to pro-white. Are you a paragon? No, you are a dick!

How about pro-American, or pro-Western in general? I think that's more accurate. Am I still a dick?

Yes, even more so than if just pro-white.

I'm not going to talk about politics, take your precious liberalism elsewhere.

Saying your not going to talk about politics, and the calling someone a liberal... -sigh-

[Golden Owl]

Logical Escape wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Come to think of it the sacrifice the council decision should actually have humanity/Shepard gain favor with some alien species. I could see the non-citadel species like the Quarians,Krogan and Batarians being delighted to see them gone or at the very least I don't see why they would shed any tears over them

Killing the Rachni Queen and the Council should have made Shepard a hero in the eyes of the Krogan.

If you were to pursue things solely from a meta-logical point of view, krogan should welcome a new rachni invasion.  The other sentient races would have no choice but to call on them again, and undo the effects of the genophage so the krogan can kick more rachni ass.

Seboist has very good points....Myself, personally, I would best like to see an all species council...the meglomanic three is a cr*ppy set up, though an all human led is just as cr*ppy....All should be on the council....but that option so far has manifested.

Killing the Rachni should play in favor of the Renegade in the eyes of the Krogan...Paragon is being meta loved on that point with BW.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

To answer your previous post, I think both Sovereign and Saren were necessary.

I agree, but only up to a certain point. I think Saren's main function was to ensure nobody opened the arms again once Sovereign was docked to the station. He may have served an additional function with his ability to access the central control station and transfer control to Sovereign, speeding up Sovereign's ability to access the relay.

We don't know any of this for certain though and that's why it is foolish to waste resources on the Council.

At the time Shepard makes that call for all he knows Saren's job was 100% complete. It may only be a matter of time until Sovereign takes control and opens the relay. Shepard doesn't know for certain how close Sovereign is to succeeding. The data file from vigil is a temporary measure.


I think the only reason Sovereign took full control of Saren and attacked Shepard was because he was running out of time. The fleet was hitting him hard and this was its only chance to open the relay.

I think his shields overloading once the Saren avatar was destroyed was pure coincidence. After all there are no other examples of Reaper avatars causing a problem for the Reaper once they are destroyed. We killed Harbringer's avatars dozens of times and when the Grayson avatar died there was no indication it caused the Reapers any trouble.

Again, I stress, you don't know any of this for certain at the time you make the decision. When Shepard makes that call Saren's job may have already been completed. It is foolish to risk the galaxy just for a little political stability.

How do we know that this data file is only temporary? I don't recall that ever being mentioned.

[KnightofPhoenix]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Well in the real world if you wanted to support your views that you wanted American/English/European/Black/White/Christian/Jewish/Muslim dominance then you would have to be pretty renegade. That is just the way it is I think.

Mind you the situation is different in Mass Effect.

Whereas if you did what I just said above in the REAL WORLD it would be considered pretty evil/Hitler like/stupid

Human history has always been about the dominance of one over the other. It's irrelevent what the masses consider it, and what name they want to call it. It's a reality of our history and our present.  And I'd argue, our future.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 03:09 .

[Aaleel]

Xilizhra wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

To answer your previous post, I think both Sovereign and Saren were necessary.

I agree, but only up to a certain point. I think Saren's main function was to ensure nobody opened the arms again once Sovereign was docked to the station. He may have served an additional function with his ability to access the central control station and transfer control to Sovereign, speeding up Sovereign's ability to access the relay.

We don't know any of this for certain though and that's why it is foolish to waste resources on the Council.

At the time Shepard makes that call for all he knows Saren's job was 100% complete. It may only be a matter of time until Sovereign takes control and opens the relay. Shepard doesn't know for certain how close Sovereign is to succeeding. The data file from vigil is a temporary measure.


I think the only reason Sovereign took full control of Saren and attacked Shepard was because he was running out of time. The fleet was hitting him hard and this was its only chance to open the relay.

I think his shields overloading once the Saren avatar was destroyed was pure coincidence. After all there are no other examples of Reaper avatars causing a problem for the Reaper once they are destroyed. We killed Harbringer's avatars dozens of times and when the Grayson avatar died there was no indication it caused the Reapers any trouble.

Again, I stress, you don't know any of this for certain at the time you make the decision. When Shepard makes that call Saren's job may have already been completed. It is foolish to risk the galaxy just for a little political stability.

How do we know that this data file is only temporary? I don't recall that ever being mentioned.

Vigil says the file will give you temporary control of the citadel systems.

[Xilizhra]

Vigil says the file will give you temporary control of the citadel systems.

It's not me that's supposed to have permanent control, though; it's the keepers. Sovereign can't override the keepers, and all I need do is return control to them.

[Golden Owl]

Seboist wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Seboist wrote...


That's essentially what happens in the ME1 Paragon ending with the council sacrificed. Udina talks about the other species looking up to humanity.

How do you figure that.....reasoning?

It's just like America being the dominant power and funding democratic movements the world over or the Soviet Union supporting communist movements abroad.

It's not a manifest destiny like expansion at the expense of others.

Hmmm...I'm going to have to take the time to think on this one....I'm not sure if I'm seeing your point...so stepping back and considering it for a while....will let you know if I'm still lost or getting the reference later.

[Seboist]

Golden Owl wrote...

Logical Escape wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Come to think of it the sacrifice the council decision should actually have humanity/Shepard gain favor with some alien species. I could see the non-citadel species like the Quarians,Krogan and Batarians being delighted to see them gone or at the very least I don't see why they would shed any tears over them

Killing the Rachni Queen and the Council should have made Shepard a hero in the eyes of the Krogan.

If you were to pursue things solely from a meta-logical point of view, krogan should welcome a new rachni invasion.  The other sentient races would have no choice but to call on them again, and undo the effects of the genophage so the krogan can kick more rachni ass.

Seboist has very good points....Myself, personally, I would best like to see an all species council...the meglomanic three is a cr*ppy set up, though an all human led is just as cr*ppy....All should be on the council....but that option so far has manifested.

Killing the Rachni should play in favor of the Renegade in the eyes of the Krogan...Paragon is being meta loved on that point with BW.

It's good to see a clear thinking paragon that recognizes what the old council really is!

If it were up to me the new council would consist of Human,Krogan,Vorcha,Quarian and Geth. :happy:

[marshalleck]

Xilizhra wrote...

Vigil says the file will give you temporary control of the citadel systems.

It's not me that's supposed to have permanent control, though; it's the keepers. Sovereign can't override the keepers, and all I need do is return control to them.

The file has nothing to do with the Keepers. The remaining Protheans from the Conduit project already eliminated them from the equation. Refresh your memory by watching the conversation with Vigil I linked above.

Or here 

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 août 2011 - 03:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Golden Owl wrote...

Seboist wrote...
It's just like America being the dominant power and funding democratic movements the world over or the Soviet Union supporting communist movements abroad.

It's not a manifest destiny like expansion at the expense of others.

Hmmm...I'm going to have to take the time to think on this one....I'm not sure if I'm seeing your point...so stepping back and considering it for a while....will let you know if I'm still lost or getting the reference later.

He is refering to Hegemonic stability theory, specifically the "second face of hegemony". As in, the passive ability of a superpower to spread its influence, via economic, cultural and political incentives, without actual use of force.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 03:14 .

[Logical Escape]

Golden Owl wrote...

Seboist has very good points....Myself, personally, I would best like to see an all species council...the meglomanic three is a cr*ppy set up, though an all human led is just as cr*ppy....All should be on the council....but that option so far has manifested.

Killing the Rachni should play in favor of the Renegade in the eyes of the Krogan...Paragon is being meta loved on that point with BW.

High renegade can result in more respect from the Krogan already.  Choosing the renegade option of headbutting gatatog uvenk earns you respect from the shaman.  Obviously a warrior culture like the Krogan would value renegade over paragon characters.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Your face Sebo.


Also: I don't understand why the council doesn't let the other races join unless they do something epic,that just leads to resentment,which leads to "Oh yeah,well I'll just make my own council,with blackjack and hookers,and Krogans."

[Logical Escape]

Seboist wrote...

It's good to see a clear thinking paragon that recognizes what the old council really is!

If it were up to me the new council would consist of Human,Krogan,Vorcha,Quarian and Geth. :happy:

It's not so much as thinking clearly as trying to resolve things in as peaceful a manner as possible.  Both the old council and an all human council have significant shortcomings.  But you don't need to let people die in order to keep the old council.

[marshalleck]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Also: I don't understand why the council doesn't let the other races join unless they do something epic,that just leads to resentment,which leads to "Oh yeah,well I'll just make my own council,with blackjack and hookers,and Krogans."

Because nobody wants to give up complete and utter control and authority willingly. 

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

marshalleck wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Also: I don't understand why the council doesn't let the other races join unless they do something epic,that just leads to resentment,which leads to "Oh yeah,well I'll just make my own council,with blackjack and hookers,and Krogans."

Because nobody wants to give up complete and utter control and authority willingly. 

No one said that had to be as equal as everyone else, you don't think The USA and Englandland don't look down on other UN members?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Your face Sebo.


Also: I don't understand why the council doesn't let the other races join unless they do something epic,that just leads to resentment,which leads to "Oh yeah,well I'll just make my own council,with blackjack and hookers,and Krogans."

Just like the UN only has 5 permanent members of the Security Council. You cannot create a political institution when you give the powerful and weak nations an equal say. The stronger nations will simply have no incentive to participate, let alone respect any of the rulings.

That's why the League of Nations failed miserably. Because it did not take into account the inherent inequalities in the international community, and made no effort to give the stronger nations certain privileges.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 août 2011 - 03:18 .

[Seboist]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Your face Sebo.


Also: I don't understand why the council doesn't let the other races join unless they do something epic,that just leads to resentment,which leads to "Oh yeah,well I'll just make my own council,with blackjack and hookers,and Krogans."

Because the old council was an instrument in enforcing Asari,Turian and Salarian dominance on the rest of the galaxy. Which is why it's hilarious to see some Paragons thinking it's some benelovent entity that just wants peace and harmony.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Also: I don't understand why the council doesn't let the other races join unless they do something epic,

Then you are even more naive than I thought.

Saphra.

Everything that comes out of your mouth,everything.


It means nothing.