494 réponses à ce sujet

[shinobi602]

Rockworm503 wrote...
damn something we can agree on.  There are people who think Call of Duty is more of a RPG than Mass Effect because it has an inventory or something?  Thats what people have told me.  It makes no sense.  Zelda has an inventory and thats it but some people really believe that its more of an RPG because of it...
And people wonder why I don't hold much stock in the whole term.

So what exactly constitutes an RPG to you? 

Last I checked, Mass Effect has loot gathering, customizable character, armor customization, weapon modification, ammo modification, branching dialogue, multiple worlds and hubs for exploration, sidequests galore, inventory (ME1), stores and dealers to buy items, character classes, etc. I'm dying to know besides all this, what one little thing is missing to exclude Mass Effect from the RPG genre precisely?

Modifié par shinobi602, 17 août 2011 - 04:15 .

[Logical Escape]

Dionkey wrote...

The driving in ME1 was fine, it was the problem with the controls and the emptiness. Fill it up with more interesting sights and reifne the controls (Hammerhead was fine, but way too weak).

Maybe.  Fill it up with too much and you still run into the same problem of it becoming a linear "follow the landmark" or "follow the enemies".  Refining the control requires those playing ME to enjoy driving simulators.  I don't particularly like it much.  I found the car chase on Lair of the Shadow Broker to the most boring part of the DLC.  Further, driving isn't a fundamental RPG element, so having better driving doesn't change how much of an RPG it is one iota.

But having a bigger sandbox would certainly be nice.  But I think you can accomplish that without going to ME1 extermes.

Dionkey wrote...

I agree, melting down omni-gel was terrible, but I think completely taking out the inventory was a lazy solution. Something more similar to the DA2's inventory (which I thought was pretty well done) would be nice.

I wouldn't mind using the DA2's inventory.  But the presence or absence of an inventory doesn't make a game an RPG, as has already been discussed thoroughly (CoD or Zelda are not RPGs), and ME2 is not a non-RPG because it doesn't have one.

I prefer my RPG's to focus more on the story.  My choices, my dialogue, my interactions will have an effect, either immediate or dow the line.  That's what makes a rewarding RPG to me.  ME2 kept this as its core.  Being able to flip through a [bad] inventory system doesn't add much to the game.  Certainly, you could still have a system that allows you to customize your weapons without that abomination of an ME1 inventory.

Dionkey wrote...

The thing about ME2 was that builds had no advantage over each other. You could adapt any 2 squadmate to your weaknesses no matter what class you were. In ME1, there were 20x the builds and they all applied for the most part.

Yes, this is true, if you knew ahead of time what kind of enemies that you'd face.  You could also create strategies that were more universal and yet didn't necessarily cover its weaknesses.  For example, on one playthrough, I made an engineer and took along Tali and Legion for triple combat drone.  Because of ME2's greater emphasis on it being a cover shooter instead of a generic (and poorly executed) TPS, this kind of strategy actually had a huge amount of impact on how the combat played out.  Much more so than whether or not I mastered warp or pull.

Dionkey wrote...

First off, the Omni-tool's haptic interface comes from built in pieces in the armor or synthetic weaving in the skin. All that force feedback is artificial. Secondly, if Omni-blades were to sear through armor, they would need to be hotter than a plasma cutter. Unless omni-tools are now plasma cutters, I don't see how that works.

It could be more of a refractory laser cutter, I supose.  Anyway, I don't see how husks, mechs, the yagh on the shadow broker, and armored units were supposed to die from my elbow either.  It's not a perfect solution, but it's still an improvement.

[Thompson family]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

To both Thompson and Rockworm: My comment was regarding Pokemon.

My apologies, Lunatic LK47. I editied the post after my mistake had been pointed out to me. Too late, I know. I should have known better since you were the author.

Modifié par Thompson family, 17 août 2011 - 04:17 .

[Rockworm503]

shinobi602 wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...
damn something we can agree on.  There are people who think Call of Duty is more of a RPG than Mass Effect because it has an inventory or something?  Thats what people have told me.  It makes no sense.  Zelda has an inventory and thats it but some people really believe that its more of an RPG because of it...
And people wonder why I don't hold much stock in the whole term.

So what exactly constitutes an RPG to you? 

Last I checked, Mass Effect has loot gathering, customizable character, armor customization, weapon modification, ammo modification, branching dialogue, multiple worlds and hubs for exploration, sidequests galore, inventory (ME1), stores and dealers to buy items, etc. I'm dying to know besides all this, what one little thing is missing to exclude Mass Effect from the RPG genre precisely?

Nothing as far as I'm conserned.  Its just a label used to give people an excuse to badmouth something.
Say I like RPGs I'll just throw it on games that even closesly resemble RPGs just to make it look good.  Don't like the direction a game is going?  Well its not an RPG so its gonna suck anyway.
This is the mindset I'm starting to see with the whole thing.
So screw it nothing deserves to be called RPG.  We'd be better off without it.

[Il Divo]

shinobi602 wrote...

So what exactly constitutes an RPG to you? 

Last I checked, Mass Effect has loot gathering, customizable character, armor customization, weapon modification, ammo modification, branching dialogue, multiple worlds and hubs for exploration, sidequests galore, inventory (ME1), stores and dealers to buy items, etc. I'm dying to know besides all this, what one little thing is missing to exclude Mass Effect from the RPG genre precisely?

If you compare Mass Effect to Dragon Age or Baldur's Gate or many other RPGs, it's much lighter on the tactics/customization/stat-based gameplay, which is why it's often called an action RPG/RPG-lite/TPS with RPG elements.

Modifié par Il Divo, 17 août 2011 - 04:18 .

[Aaleel]

All they had to do to straighten out the ME1 inventory system add a sort feature into categories, stack like objects together.

Also just add things to the inventory that you get out of containers and stop giving you tons of stuff you didn't pick up. But even if they didn't do that, all they really needed was a sort button.

Was that so hard to do that they had to streamline it so excessively?

Modifié par Aaleel, 17 août 2011 - 04:19 .

[Iakus]

Logical Escape wrote...

I didn't disagree with having more opportunities to go off the beaten path.  But making it a driving simulator was very clearly not the way to do it.  Just like mining on planets is also not the way to do it.

And I never, ever brought up the Mako once here.  Certainly not in the context of ME3.  What I am saying is exploration was sincerely lacking in ME2.  

iakus wrote...

Actually, it does.  Eliminate customization, even annoying customization=reduced RPG elements.

And all I've mentioned so far are mods.  But yees, being able to customize appearances would be great as well.  If I could get what I consider proper armor on my ME2 squamates, I'd have used some of them a lot more.

iakus wrote...

Actually, your Widow does about 40% more damage than Legion's widow.

The tradeoff is that ME2 has a considerably larger group of party members.  While I may not be able to customize Legion's appearance much, I can have the opportunity to play with Jack instead, and she's obviously very different to Legion.  That's another form of customization.  Just not necessarily the one YOU want.

And it will always be 40%.  No more, no less.

And personally,  I think of squadmates as followers and NPCs, not as gear.

]
Yes, because there's something so indelibly wrong or impossible about the omni-blade?  I must have missed the part in my ME1/2 playthroughs where they mentioned that "the omni-tool cannot become corporeal".

Look at my signature.  I have no problem with the function of an omniblade (isn't this how this got started?)  I have a problem with its appearance.  A glowing orange blade is not awesome to me.  It's silly.

[Rockworm503]

Thompson family wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

To both Thompson and Rockworm: My comment was regarding Pokemon.

My apologies, Lunatic LK47. I editied the post after my mistake had been pointed out to me. Too late, I know. I should have known better since you were the author.

Yes I didn't realize this till later context helps everything 

[Ihatebadgames]

RPGs have evolved since FF3 came to the US.And RPGs have had some of the draw backs of ME.Too much money at the end and nothing to do with it.
I've preordered the CE even though I expect to be really disapointed based on DA2.Like a poster said awhile back EA hates RPGs.I'm surprised that they didn't give every class in DA 2 a bow and call it a TPS.Only chance hard core RPGs have anymore seems to be Europe and they don't seem to understand working with a team.

[Lunatic LK47]

Thompson family wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

To both Thompson and Rockworm: My comment was regarding Pokemon.

My apologies, Lunatic LK47. I editied the post after my mistake had been pointed out to me. Too late, I know. I should have known better since you were the author.

**** Happens. I need to look at my posts more thoroughly.

[Il Divo]

Rockworm503 wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...
damn something we can agree on.  There are people who think Call of Duty is more of a RPG than Mass Effect because it has an inventory or something?  Thats what people have told me.  It makes no sense.  Zelda has an inventory and thats it but some people really believe that its more of an RPG because of it...
And people wonder why I don't hold much stock in the whole term.

So what exactly constitutes an RPG to you? 

Last I checked, Mass Effect has loot gathering, customizable character, armor customization, weapon modification, ammo modification, branching dialogue, multiple worlds and hubs for exploration, sidequests galore, inventory (ME1), stores and dealers to buy items, etc. I'm dying to know besides all this, what one little thing is missing to exclude Mass Effect from the RPG genre precisely?

Nothing as far as I'm conserned.  Its just a label used to give people an excuse to badmouth something.
Say I like RPGs I'll just throw it on games that even closesly resemble RPGs just to make it look good.  Don't like the direction a game is going?  Well its not an RPG so its gonna suck anyway.
This is the mindset I'm starting to see with the whole thing.
So screw it nothing deserves to be called RPG.  We'd be better off without it.

Which is an interesting point to consider. Don't like Oblivion? It's not an RPG. Don't like Dragon Age 2? It's not an RPG. Fable? Same thing. Often times, "RPG" becomes synonymous with "game that I like". And everything else is a bad game.

It would be easier if we just broke the definition down into the components, "stat-based games" and "interactive narrative games".

Modifié par Il Divo, 17 août 2011 - 04:23 .

[shinobi602]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Nothing as far as I'm conserned.  Its just a label used to give people an excuse to badmouth something.
Say I like RPGs I'll just throw it on games that even closesly resemble RPGs just to make it look good.  Don't like the direction a game is going?  Well its not an RPG so its gonna suck anyway.
This is the mindset I'm starting to see with the whole thing.
So screw it nothing deserves to be called RPG.  We'd be better off without it.

I'll agree to that.

[Thompson family]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...



**** Happens. I need to look at my posts more thoroughly.

No, I need to read them.

[spikoro5698]

sympathy4saren wrote...

I'm a huge Mass Effect fan, but it seems like they just turned it into a pure shooter with dialogue. The introduction with the omnitool is cheesy. The ending with Shepard waiving the omniblade is cheesy. The new Atlas or whatever gives me nightmarish chills of a game I despise....Halo. So does the omniblade. The premise of this game revolves around saving Earth from an alien invasion. It's clear rpg elements that are allegedly in the game are playing second fiddle by far to the shooting...almost like its thrown in just to appease. Default FemShep got a plastic redo.

I'm pretty sure the series has changed forever...and not for the good. Am I the only one who feels this way? Let's have a respectful discussion.

LOL RPG fanboys are THE WORST stop complaining people like you will never be satisfied. im a huge Mass effect fan myself and i must say im really looking forward to ME3 it looks AMAZING! Also do you realize that you are ****ing about to much action in a trailer showing off the COMBAT? <_< Which is... Retarded 

[shinobi602]

Il Divo wrote...

If you compare Mass Effect to Dragon Age or Baldur's Gate or many other RPGs, it's much lighter on the tactics/customization/stat-based gameplay, which is why it's often called an action RPG/RPG-lite/TPS with RPG elements.

So it's all about the numbers? *sigh*

I'd have to disagree on the tactics part though. The ME series has plenty of it, at least in the harder difficulty modes.

[Thompson family]

Has anyone raised the possibility that ME3 might actually pull this off and be both? After all, I can play IL-2 Sturmovik with automatic engine management and unlimited ammo and have a fun arcade-type shooter.

The longest of longshots, I think, but it would be a masterpiece if they could do it.

[spikoro5698]

Clonedzero wrote...

i come here because im a massive fan of the mass effect series and universe as a whole.

but god damn, what an ungrateful whiney community. its disgusting.

I know right? NOTHING will please these morons i feel sorry for bioware there community is like that spoiled brat 8 year old that wants EVERYTHING his way and when its not his way then he rages just like all these crying RPG fanboys.

[Iakus]

spikoro5698 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

i come here because im a massive fan of the mass effect series and universe as a whole.

but god damn, what an ungrateful whiney community. its disgusting.

I know right? NOTHING will please these morons i feel sorry for bioware there community is like that spoiled brat 8 year old that wants EVERYTHING his way and when its not his way then he rages just like all these crying RPG fanboys.

classy

[spikoro5698]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

i come here because im a massive fan of the mass effect series and universe as a whole.

but god damn, what an ungrateful whiney community. its disgusting.

This.

Recently I've been more disappointed with the community than anything BioWare's done.

I second this

[Logical Escape]

iakus wrote...

And I never, ever brought up the Mako once here.  Certainly not in the context of ME3.  What I am saying is exploration was sincerely lacking in ME2.  

Sure.  ME1 had more exploration in ME2.  But at the same time, ME1 is a great example of a lot more POINTLESS exploration than ME2.  Driving up and down rugged terrain for ten minutes with nothing happening does not make it a great RPG.  Having that feature in ME1 isn't essential or make it a good game.

We both agree that an ideal RPG would have plenty of sandbox options that are both varied (e.g. not ME2) and not pointless (e.g. not ME1).

iakus wrote...

And all I've mentioned so far are mods.  But yees, being able to customize appearances would be great as well.  If I could get what I consider proper armor on my ME2 squamates, I'd have used some of them a lot more.

And it will always be 40%.  No more, no less.

And personally,  I think of squadmates as followers and NPCs, not as gear.

I think squadmates, gear, inventory, etc all work towards a certain goal (functional diversity), and not as the goal itself.  Having a lot of options is a means to an end, not the end itself.  It's nice to be able to pick from a ton of different options, but the ideal is that having different options actually mean something.  As I said, it'd be nice if, by wearing ugly armor, people recognize you as ugly or comment on it.  If we had just a few armor choices that caused NPCs to react differently, then I'd take it that over having a thousand armor choices that have no fucntional difference on gameplay.

iakus wrote...

Look at my signature.  I have no problem with the function of an omniblade (isn't this how this got started?)  I have a problem with its appearance.  A glowing orange blade is not awesome to me.  It's silly.

That's fair.  For you.  It's also perfectly fair for others to like it.  Either way, the presence or absence of the omni-blade doesn't make it any more or less of an RPG.  I personally found the magic elbow to less "RPG" than anything.  As if smacking a mech with your elbow is going to do much...

Modifié par Logical Escape, 17 août 2011 - 04:29 .

[Iakus]

Thompson family wrote...

Has anyone raised the possibility that ME3 might actually pull this off and be both? After all, I can play IL-2 Sturmovik with automatic engine management and unlimited ammo and have a fun arcade-type shooter.

The longest of longshots, I think, but it would be a masterpiece if they could do it.

It might be.  And yes it would be a masterpiece if they did.  But I simply doubt they have the ability, or indeed the will to make the attempt.

I haven't seen an attempt  even come close since the first Deus Ex game.

[spikoro5698]

iakus wrote...

spikoro5698 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

i come here because im a massive fan of the mass effect series and universe as a whole.

but god damn, what an ungrateful whiney community. its disgusting.

I know right? NOTHING will please these morons i feel sorry for bioware there community is like that spoiled brat 8 year old that wants EVERYTHING his way and when its not his way then he rages just like all these crying RPG fanboys.

classy

Cheers Mate! 

[Il Divo]

shinobi602 wrote...

So it's all about the numbers? *sigh*

Depends. The numbers are simply easier to deal with.

For example, Mass Effect only has 1 "layer" of stats, and those are the skills.

DnD has multiple layers. Choose a race, which influences your attributes. Attributes which influence skills. Skills which influence feats. Then add on top spells, combat rolls, etc. And this is all based around your class.

It doesn't make one better than the other, but when you consider that Mass Effect also involves much more player reflexes in its gameplay, it's clear that stats play a lesser role compared to old school games, hence the designation "RPG-lite". 

If we start talking about choices/dialogue/interaction it gets more complicated.

Modifié par Il Divo, 17 août 2011 - 04:32 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Has anyone raised the possibility that ME3 might actually pull this off and be both? After all, I can play IL-2 Sturmovik with automatic engine management and unlimited ammo and have a fun arcade-type shooter.

The longest of longshots, I think, but it would be a masterpiece if they could do it.

It might be.  And yes it would be a masterpiece if they did.  But I simply doubt they have the ability, or indeed the will to make the attempt.

I haven't seen an attempt  even come close since the first Deus Ex game.

Human Revolution. One week. Be there. Or be square.