63 réponses à ce sujet

[Gegenlicht]

marshalleck wrote...

lots of people in this thread apparently didn't pay attention to the dialogue

hint: individual warrior skill has nothing to do with it

This. To drive the point home, look at the Mage origin. You're just freshly graduated from school, essentially. If they only picked the best based on skill and experience they'd be looking to get Irving or Wynne. Instead they get you. And in Ostagar, you run into Daveth who's just a common thief based on his skills and experience. There must be hundreds like him in the world. Jory thought being a Grey Warden was just about being the best and toughest fighter out there. Look at what it got him.

Look at what you're doing in the game. That's what makes a Grey Warden, it's that simple. What makes them so special is their ability to look beyond their own concerns and see the bigger picture, willing to sacrifice their own personal goals and needs for the greater good. Even Alistair, despite all his ****ing and moaning does it. There's a reason why one out of a mere three tenets of their order is about sacrifice.

And just for the record, this is all bleeding spelled out in the game.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Relshar wrote...
Why so special and feared by the normal populace?
Yes they are the only ones that can kill the Archdemon, but why are they considered so special other than that by the normal folk of Fereldan ?

Its not as if they have any true special abilities they are just normal warriors, mages and rogues that have drank some blood and will now live only 30 years if they dont die in battle. I fail to see why they are considered to be special in the lore and game world.

Look to comparrison with the Witcher Geralt. He was stronger and faster than the average human due to the Grass Trials. Which mutated him, he also had access to basic magic and alchemy.

1 vs 1 in a fight between Geralt and the Grey Warden Geralt would win hands down.

The people of Ferelden consider the Wardens great warriors because they simply are great warriors. They are great warriors because they only recruit the best of the best - or those with the inherent potential to become such.

Relshar wrote...
I have played through the entier game and fail to see why they are so special other than the reason they are the only ones that can kill the Archdemon. I honstly cant see any benifits to the order or am I missing something ?

Now try to play through the entire game again and actually read, or listen, as it were.

If you actually followed the story, you'd know full well why Grey Wardens are the only ones capable of ending a blight. And it has nothing to do with them being great warriors. Being a "special" person is a requirement for recruitment, but it's not the reason they are necessary.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 21 novembre 2009 - 07:05 .

[Setz69]

Gegenlicht wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

lots of people in this thread apparently didn't pay attention to the dialogue

hint: individual warrior skill has nothing to do with it

This. To drive the point home, look at the Mage origin. You're just freshly graduated from school, essentially. If they only picked the best based on skill and experience they'd be looking to get Irving or Wynne. Instead they get you. And in Ostagar, you run into Daveth who's just a common thief based on his skills and experience. There must be hundreds like him in the world. Jory thought being a Grey Warden was just about being the best and toughest fighter out there. Look at what it got him.

Look at what you're doing in the game. That's what makes a Grey Warden, it's that simple. What makes them so special is their ability to look beyond their own concerns and see the bigger picture, willing to sacrifice their own personal goals and needs for the greater good. Even Alistair, despite all his ****ing and moaning does it. There's a reason why one out of a mere three tenets of their order is about sacrifice.

And just for the record, this is all bleeding spelled out in the game.

I haven't played the mage origin yet, so I don't know about that one but I highly doubt Wynn or Irving would agree to being a Grey Warden. Irving of course having to take care of the Circle of Magic, and Wynn being a Senor Enchanter means that both have their own responsibilities in the tower. It'd would make alot more sense to grab a fresh young mage who can be taught and molded.

The Daelish elf origin, you defeat a whole cavern of darkspawn. This makes you greater than most.

Human noble, you fight your way through several groups of Howe's men to reach your father. Duncan is impressed by this and recruits you.

City elf you escape from a prison and fight guards to get to your friend, even defeating a noble.

Out of the three i've played so far, the PC has distinquished him/herself as an above average person before even becoming a grey warden.

Daveth wasn't just a common thief. Through the dialogue he implies he's very good, quick with a blade, and quite fast. Thats why he's surprised Duncan could keep up. Jory did think being a grey warden was about being the toughest. And he was the toughest, which is why he got RECRUITED. The Grey Wardens are about sacrifice and putting the greater good first, but this doesnt mean the recruit total retards (For lack of a better word) or useless people. They look for the best and the brightest.

Duncan even says he's not recruiting you for your sake, he needs someone with your skill.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Yeah, that's made very clear in the dalish & mage origins, at least. He's not recruiting you out of pity, but because you're good. Really good.

[marshalleck]

Well now that this is no longer in the no-spoiler section I can stop being cryptic

The reason Wardens have an air of mystique about them, and command great respect, is because they are the only ones who can end a Blight. Why is that? It's not because of their individual skill at arms, although that no doubt aids them in their mission. The reason only Wardens can end a Blight is because their tainted blood kills the soul of the archdemon when they deliver a death blow. It kills the Archdemon, but it also kills the Warden. This is the meaning of their sacrifice, this is what Duncan is talking about when he says they pay a heavy price to become what they are, and this is why he killed Jory--there was no way to back out at that point. You either drink the blood and die, refuse to drink the blood and die, or drink it, survive, but eventually die in combat against an Archdemon. That is the sole purpose of their order--to sacrfice their lives to end Blights.Becoming a Grey Warden is signing your own death warrant. That's the reason for all the secrecy about Joining etc.

Modifié par marshalleck, 21 novembre 2009 - 07:39 .

[menasure]

grey wardens are in a best case what paragons are for the dwarves and in a worst case what the dead legion is for them. just learn about that culture in game and you'll see what i mean.

[Relshar]

Yes I read all the codex entries in the game and spoke to everyone about the grey wardens. But still was at a loss as to why they were so respected, or feared. The best I could come up with in a comparison sense was they are akin to Jedi but without the jedi powers and force manipulation. Self sacrfice and all that etc.

I have read some posts above about them being like Delta Squad? I take it these are like the UK's Paratroopers ? Or SBS/ SAS?
If this is the case then why does Duncan take an untested whelp to be a Grey Warden when there are far better mages, warriors and rogues out there ?

I understand the need for secrecy of the joining as one it is a basic form of blood magic you are performing. And if you knew about the 30 year life span or death when you kill the archdemon then you wouldn't realy bee keen on joining them. Or even the possibility of dying from just drinking the blood.

All the points posted here just show me what I have picked up from the game and codex. But not a one has answered my questions on them.
Duncan tells Alistair to wait and see when Alistair asks him about special powers. Some of you refer to the DLC of Wardens Keep. This is a add on and not realy a part of the original game. So if you just played the game without this then you would not gain the blood powers that Avernus has found.

In all the Origin stories appart from one you are always with someone that helps. Whether it be the human noble with the dog your mother and a servent. The Mage with Jowan and the Sister, The Dalish Elf with the other warrior and mage, and the City Elf who escapes with the help of her Cousin I think. The only one that truely stands out is the Dwarf Noble who completes his/her Origin Story alone and in one of the harshest enviroments.

Dalish Origin I just think Duncan takes you on cause he feels pity for you although he says other wise.

City Elf he does the same as you will be strung up other wise and he and the Elder are good friends.

Dwarf Commoner maybe a close second but you still had help. Why not take your friend as well ? Leski.

Mage Origin why not take Jowan? He is in more danger than your character. And far more powerful.

Other than being able to kill the Archdemon Grey Wardens are like any normal rank and file troup. Nothing about them makes them stand out from other establishments like the Templars, Circle of Magi etc.

With some magic even the Circle could kill the Archdemon it all comes down to the method of destroying its essence. And in the DA:O world this can be done easily. Its just that the Grey Wardens wont tell anyone about the blood they drink.

[Taerda]

Relshar wrote...
I have read some posts above about them being like Delta Squad? I take it these are like the UK's Paratroopers ? Or SBS/ SAS?
If this is the case then why does Duncan take an untested whelp to be a Grey Warden when there are far better mages, warriors and rogues out there ?... The Mage with Jowan and the Sister, ...Mage Origin why not take Jowan? He is in more danger than your character. And far more powerful.

Other than being able to kill the Archdemon Grey Wardens are like any normal rank and file troup. Nothing about them makes them stand out from other establishments like the Templars, Circle of Magi etc.

With some magic even the Circle could kill the Archdemon it all comes down to the method of destroying its essence. And in the DA:O world this can be done easily. Its just that the Grey Wardens wont tell anyone about the blood they drink.

If you even played the Mage origin, you missed the boat, the docks and even the port. I'll go over each point for you:

Why  Duncan take you:

1: You are the apprentence of the Circle's Leader who has had "the fastest and easiest Harrowing ever witnessed." ... this means you are both a prodigy and someone that has connections to the Circle's Inner power.

2: You are able to survive and follow orders in undercover ops and you actually deliver - all of which the average mage does not possess.

3: Jowan is known to practice Blood magic, and it is a forbidden school, even frowned upon by the Grey Wardens (as seen in the DLC Warden Keep content) - he is safer to be tranqual or killed.

4: Jowan and the Chantry girl don't help you ... without you they can't even get a senior mage to sign a requizition form ... they don't even make it past the first obstical let alone "assist" you.

5: Jowan is no where near the copentence(sp) you are as a Mage ... he's been an apprentence much longer then you, has turned to blood magic to assist his feeble efforts to master his talents and as you go about your business in the tower, you see him fail even at simple things like lighting a bonfire with his magic .. indeed his instructor says: "Perhaps we should have started the lesson with kindling and flint.

I don't know about the recruiting methods of Her Majesty's Armed Forces, but I do know that the Marines here with their Elite force will recruit from any source if they find the right individual .. and with at least the Human Noble and Elf Mage Origins, it is made clear that you are among those these types of recruiters would seek out.

[MFCell]

Well, without directly disareeing with you, in fact in a form of agreement, I'll say this;

They aren't thee Black Warden's or the White Warden's, they are the Gray Wardens. Some things about this order, are not so easily explainable to the next person, and have them accept it. Some are.  i.e. They fight the Blight.  Not gonna find a lot of people having isues with trying to end a Blight, dig?  HOW they get this done, now... I don't know how the general populace would feel about the Joining. I can't imagine they would love it right off the cuff, hah.

Warden's make a sacrifice that mage's make, but instead of having to resist the demon, they are instead tasked with the opposite, taking the taint into their own being until death.  If the Order of Templars had anything to say in the Joining, I'm sure they would have them on hand to kill those who SURVIVE the Joining, heh ...

With the conditions surrounding the Harrowing being held secret, it comes as no surprise to me that the Wardens simply do not have the option to let others know the secret of the Joining, else they would face persecution of some form, much in the way apostates do.

"There are worse things in this world than Blood Magic" Duncan

Modifié par MFCell, 22 novembre 2009 - 05:35 .

[Aldandil]

Well, he saw some potential in your character. He was right in my case, my character later ended the Blight. I suppose that makes Duncan's judgement pretty good and my character somewhat better than the average Joe,



Grey Wardens are not respected just because of their "special powers", such as sensing darkspawn and being able to kill archdemons. They are also respected for their great commitment. No one else is willing to dedicate their life to standing guard against the Blight. It should also be noted that not everyone thinks the Grey Wardens are all that. Before it was made certain that the Blight was a real Blight, some people were pretty sceptical about them, and distrusted them. They aren't idolized by everyone.



Is there a huge difference between the Grey Wardens and the Templars or the Legion of the Dead? No, not really. I'm sure both Templars and Legionnaires are met with respect too. The guy from the Legion of the Dead wasn't very impressed with the Grey Warden initially, for instance, showing that just saying your a Grey Warden doesn't always work.



However, there is some things that differentiates the Grey Wardens from the others, to some extent. For starters, they are an international order,which would make them stand out for most common people. They dedicate their life in a fight against something that is a concern for everyone, both humans, Dalish and dwarves (well, maybe not the dwarves to such a great extent, but they didn't seem to be too interested in helping the Wardens anyway).

[Relshar]

Taerda wrote...

Relshar wrote...
I have read some posts above about them being like Delta Squad? I take it these are like the UK's Paratroopers ? Or SBS/ SAS?
If this is the case then why does Duncan take an untested whelp to be a Grey Warden when there are far better mages, warriors and rogues out there ?... The Mage with Jowan and the Sister, ...Mage Origin why not take Jowan? He is in more danger than your character. And far more powerful.

Other than being able to kill the Archdemon Grey Wardens are like any normal rank and file troup. Nothing about them makes them stand out from other establishments like the Templars, Circle of Magi etc.

With some magic even the Circle could kill the Archdemon it all comes down to the method of destroying its essence. And in the DA:O world this can be done easily. Its just that the Grey Wardens wont tell anyone about the blood they drink.

If you even played the Mage origin, you missed the boat, the docks and even the port. I'll go over each point for you:

Why  Duncan take you:

1: You are the apprentence of the Circle's Leader who has had "the fastest and easiest Harrowing ever witnessed." ... this means you are both a prodigy and someone that has connections to the Circle's Inner power.

2: You are able to survive and follow orders in undercover ops and you actually deliver - all of which the average mage does not possess.
Undercover ops? When and where did this happen in an origin story ?

3: Jowan is known to practice Blood magic, and it is a forbidden school, even frowned upon by the Grey Wardens (as seen in the DLC Warden Keep content) - he is safer to be tranqual or killed.

4: Jowan and the Chantry girl don't help you ... without you they can't even get a senior mage to sign a requizition form ... they don't even make it past the first obstical let alone "assist" you.
They went with me into the anti magic dungeon. They fought along side me, without them my mage would of been squished.

5: Jowan is no where near the copentence(sp) you are as a Mage ... he's been an apprentence much longer then you, has turned to blood magic to assist his feeble efforts to master his talents and as you go about your business in the tower, you see him fail even at simple things like lighting a bonfire with his magic .. indeed his instructor says: "Perhaps we should have started the lesson with kindling and flint. 
Well it was Jowan who knocked down 3 templars and Irving the senior enchanter all at once. Not my character, so who was more powerful ?


I don't know about the recruiting methods of Her Majesty's Armed Forces, but I do know that the Marines here with their Elite force will recruit from any source if they find the right individual .. and with at least the Human Noble and Elf Mage Origins, it is made clear that you are among those these types of recruiters would seek out.

But we are moving away from my original question. I agree to an extent that the main character is something special.

But the question remains as to what makes Grey Wardens more feared, respected or hated than other elite troupes in Ferledan?
Is it the fact that they are the only ones who can stop a Blight the only reason as to their status? If so it seems to be very weak for a story hook. Considering the amount of other factions there are that can possibly do the same thing.

[ReubenLiew]

Legend. Legend goes a LONG way especially in ancient times, where history is clouded by superstition and lies.



There has never been a Blight that hasn't been destroyed without the Grey Wardens. The first Blight was proof of this, no matter what happened they couldn't beat the Blight until the Grey Wardens came in and saved the day. And again, and again, and again.



Plus they had awesome Griffons back then.



Grey Wardens don't have to be better than the average shmuck, although most will be because Grey Wardens like to recruit from outstanding individuals. It's simply that no nation has ever beaten the Blight without a Grey Warden that adds to their supernaturalness, people tend to believe that Grey Wardens possess an almost otherworldly ability to combat the Darkspawn.

[jimmyw404]

I got the impression that people's respect for you was more because of the legends about grey wardens succeeding than them having powers. The important part to that is that grey wardens were known to be very self-sacrificing and thus have no ulterior motive behind their actions, so trusting them is the best thing to do in the eyes of most good people.



And honestly I didn't get much respect or fear from people, not like I got playing the Witcher. People didn't react to me as if I was some walking badass...

[orpheus333]

I believe the joining further removes the wheat from the chaff not just recruitment. Those that survive it have something more than your regular human, elf or dwarf. Not all Legion of the Dead would survive the joining. There is something special in the joining that weeds out those that can obtain the skill/force of will to face the darkspawn head on, gather allys, and defeat the archdemon.

The Grey Wardens are far more than the sum of their parts in many respects but what makes them an interesting group is that they are still only mortals. No mutations, no special taint fuelled abilities (except the wardens keep ones), no super strength.

Modifié par andyr1986, 23 novembre 2009 - 06:13 .

[cooldevo]

Relshar wrote...

Dalish Origin I just think Duncan takes you on cause he feels pity for you although he says other wise.
City Elf he does the same as you will be strung up other wise and he and the Elder are good friends.
Dwarf Commoner maybe a close second but you still had help. Why not take your friend as well ? Leski.
Mage Origin why not take Jowan? He is in more danger than your character. And far more powerful.

This is not totally correct.  Grey Wardens will do whatever they can to stop a Blight.  The ends justify the means, which is why they also allowed Blood Mages in the Warden order.  They are supposed to be detached, apart from society.  They are not supposed to have or carry a title or rank in normal circles.

If you have nothing to aid the Grey Wardens in stopping the Blight do not expect them to have pity or act mercifully towards you.  Nowhere in all the codx and wikis I have been able to find would show anything Duncan or any Warden would do out of pity or mercy.  If that were the case, why didn't he have pity on Jory who had a pregnant wife back home and spare his life?  Because the Grey Wardens are cold, calculating, and focused.  The only goal they have is to stop the Blight.  The means?  Anything goes.  Period.

[orpheus333]

...Wrong Thread...

Modifié par andyr1986, 23 novembre 2009 - 06:57 .

[RazorrX]

Grey Wardens are respected, feared, admired, etc. because they are the ONLY ones in the history of the world to kill an archdemon and end a blight.



They did this 4 times prior to the game. 4 times. The legends would build after just 1 time, but 4? The first blight lasted a very long time. The Archdemon was thought to be unstoppable. Then the Grey Wardens were founded, and within a short time the Blight was over. That alone would make them a thing of legend. Every tale of every blight ends with the archdemon, a fallen god, etc. being killed by 1 Grey Warden (who dies in the process). You would be seen as a superman or some such.



Grey Wardens have used blood magic. Duncan tells you this in the Mage story. Avernus goes too far (IMO). There is a mixed message in Wardens Keep. One is that Blood Magic, etc. was horribly wrong, the other is that Grey Wardens used such. Up to you to decide. (I always opt to kill everything and say BM is wrong, but that is just me).



Duncan recruits you at times because it seems you were his choice all along and at others because you are a warm body and there. I would not put too much into the fact you were recruited, he recruited Ser Jory the Cowardly Knight after all.

[Realmzmaster]

One assumption that was made is that other orders (Templars, the Circle, etc) could kill the archdemon. This appears not to be the case. Most mages would not consent to the joining because it would make them far more susceptible to losing themselves and thus becoming a danger to all. The Mage origin shows that your character is exceptional in every regard. Ducan believes that you have the willpower to maintain yourself even while tainted. Jowan is easily swayed by ambition and desire. He is weak minded.
The Templars by definition would not consent to the joining. The joining for Templars would be a slap in the Makers face. They would be depending on evil to combat evil. Alistair was a Templar in training, he never took the vows to become one. Therefore is not addicted to Lyrium. Think about the danger of a full blown Templar addicted to Lyrium with the taint. Which is why Ducan would not pick a Templar.
The other orders have to many rules limiting what is acceptable. The Grey Wardens stand between good and evil (white and black) will use any method to end the Blight. The mixture of white and black gives grey.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 23 novembre 2009 - 06:59 .

[Realmzmaster]

The Grey Wardens are repected and feared because they will use any means necessary to accomplish their purpose. I like the fact that they are not superpowered individuals. The comparison is like between Superman and Batman. Superman's powers are because of location (under a yellow sun). Batman's abilities come from hard work, training and single minded dedication to be the best.

[Dark83]

Mage Grey Warden > Geralt
Cone of Cold, Crushing Prison, Paralyze, Death Hex, etc.

[Vicious]

I hear the Wardens from Germany-- I mean Anderfel pretty much run the entire country.

[Dark83]

In every origin your character is pretty bad ass.



As a mage, you're a prodigy. As a Dwarf Noble, you single handedly survived in the Deep Roads. As a Dwarf Commoner, you beat the best the city had in the Proving, and wiped out the criminals who had you. As a Dalish Elf, not only did you manage to survive the taint, you beat up Darkspawn. A a City Elf, you busted into a keep, slaughtered the guards, and killed the noble ****. Human Noble, I guess surviving and beat every intruder counts for something.



It's worth remembering the dying soldier when we consider Darkspawn - we (the uber-Grey Warden protagonist) have no great trouble with them, but a veteran unit was slaughtered by Darkspawn (which causes Jory to be all panicky).



The Grey Wardens take the best and most powerful they can find. They also have the singular goal of fighting the Blight, and the history and legends has it that the Blight was winning before the Grey Wardens ever showed up, and consistently since then they have always turned the tide.



Look at the events of the current game in a historical perspective. What does history record? Loghain the Traitor gets the local Grey Wardens killed, and brings about civil war by committing regicide and claiming the throne, sacrificing a chunk of the nation's military in this power play. At the same time, the two (just two!) surviving Grey Wardens resolve at least 4 major issues. This includes bringing political stability to the Dwarves (becoming Paragons with the right background), essentially perform the Rite of Annulment with 4 people instead of a legion of Templars, finding and using a holy relic, and finally uniting the nation to successfully end the Blight.



That's some achievement.

[Imryll]

I think that their status as an international quasi-secret organization is an additional source of unease. A grey warden's primary commitment/loyalty is not to country, but to combat a threat that's little understood and that semi-dormant for long periods of time. It's natural for folks to fear things they don't understand.

[Eolath]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but Grey Wardens are feared and respected for the fact that they can initiate the right of conscription. Simply said, if a warden doesn't like your face he will recruit you and you have a high chance of dying in the ritual. (Or before that, while fighting darkspawn)



Kings and warlords fear them aswell for the same thing, the Grey wardens could recruit a strong and mighty general away from your army. (Or in the worst case even recruit you!)



Now, wardens dont usually abuse this power.. but this is power people, a damn load of power. and people usually fear power.

[Dark83]

Why would a King fear recruitment? The right of conscription is granted by them, it can (and was) revoked in Ferelden.



The common people also seem to have great fear of Darkspawn. If we use the little nephew as a measure of how Darkspawn and Grey Wardens are regarded, the Darkspawn are bogeymen and the Grey Wardens are knights in shining armor swooping in on griffins to save the day. Every question about the Grey Wardens directed at your mentors in the origin describe them as greatly respected, not feared.