2285 réponses à ce sujet

[Balek-Vriege]

RynJ wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

RynJ wrote...

The complaints are whining. They all are. This all mostly sounds like sour grapes because a group of people didn't get the Shep they wanted. Just like the whining about Blonde Shep was because a group of people didn't get what they wanted.

Don't pretend you're just honest debators angry at what you perceive as an "unfair poll". Let's be real. If blonde Shep was still winning NONE of you would be here and there would be no talk of unfair polls. And don't try to deny it either lovies!

Ok lets be clear here.  So in the face of all the things said you're going to claim:

-Every single person who doesn't agree with you are whiners (high pitched, crybabies who are making no mature points)
-Every single person who's complaining loves Blonde Shep and it's a FACT they're all Redhead/Blackhair hating people!!  (yeah right, good critical thinking there)

-No one complaining has made any points with any intellectual argument.

All while:

-Not backing up you're point(s), if you even have a real one other than your emotional based opinion
-Ignoring actual numbers, math and the almost complete lack of Red Femshep bashing (like seriously)
-Making sweeping generalizations about others and their intentions, regardless of them saying/proving otherwise

Explain to me how this is the case and what brought you to these conclusions? 
It sounds more like a "I think it, therefore it is" argument to me.

Meh, I like Redhair Femshep.  Actually she's about on par with Blonde Shepard (I have stated many times before).  You're argument is flawed and can't actually be supported.

Are you high? There was not one part of what you just said that was included in the comment I just made. You came to those conclusions yourself honey bunch!

I'm not backing up my points because if you want to see them they're around this thread. Also, I don't bash ANY Femshep darling! I was angry at the Blonde hate too!

Never said those that disagree with me are whiners, just said that people constantly complaining are whiners. What else do you call people who go on and on about something that isn't going to change as far as you know. Like I said, anti-Blondites wre whiners too. And point to when I ever said that all Blonde Supporters are Black/Red hair haters?

You tell me to back up my arguments, yet you make statements that make absolutely no sense and that were never part of my arguments at all! Take your own advice kk? Tell ya what, go back and find my posts that ever said anything like this, and maybe I'll believe you. Good luck!

Of course the statements above don't make sense, they're a summary of what you have been writing.  That was the point.   

For example:

"This all mostly sounds like sour grapes" sure does sound like accuse most, if not all as crybabies.  You say you never said those who disagree with you are all whiners.  However, you've heavily suggested that anyone who believes something unfair happened here are totally wrong.   You also suggest that allc omplaining here is whining.  Complaining and whining are two different things.  It's just above, in that quote.  Are the words lying to me?

If you're not going to back up your points, while making very unforgiving and blank statements, at least refer to the points others have made so people know where you're coming from.  If you're so convinced it shouldn't be too hard.  Also when a good point is made, I noticed it's almost universally ignored by people who think nothing wrong happened.  If you ignore a point in a real debate, you would lose that round.


If none of this is the case,  maybe you should just be more clear about what you post and maybe just a little less absolutist?  People are bound to misunderstand what you type.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 25 août 2011 - 04:16 .

[SerWhat?]

As long as she is modeled after a woman and not just thrown in helter skelter as an after thought, I will be happy. No matter what her hair color, if she doesn't have the actual physical movements of a real female badass instead of a man, I will be very unhappy.

[RynJ]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

[Of course the statements above don't make sense, they're a summary of what you have been writing.  That was the point.   

For example:

"This all mostly sounds like sour grapes" sure does sound like accuse most, if not all as crybabies.  You say you never said those who disagree with you are all whiners.  However, you've heavily suggested that anyone who believes something unfair happened here are totally wrong.   You also suggest that allc omplaining here is whining.  Complaining and whining are two different things.  It's just above, in that quote.  Are the words lying to me?

If you're not going to back up your points, while making very unforgiving and blank statements, at least refer to the points others have made so people know where you're coming from.  If you're so convinced it shouldn't be too hard.  Also when a good point is made, I noticed it's almost universally ignored by people who think nothing wrong happened.  If you ignore a point in a real debate, you would lose that round.


If none of this is the case,  maybe you should just be more clear about what you post and maybe just a little less absolutist?  People are bound to misunderstand what you type.

I might consider that if I heard any good points. You put words in my mouth while accusing me of having nothing to back up my arguments, where is your proof? When you accuse you need the proof, not me. You lose a debate with no proof. Of course I know why, it's because there isn't anything as I never said any of the things you accused me of saying.

Sounds to me like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you, funny that you paint everyone who opposes you with that brush. And complaining is whining when it's excessive and pointless, do you not agree?

 I don't make unforgiving and blank statements, I make truthful statements that you don't like.  Why is it that you're in the right while everyone else is in the wrong?

You want me to sum up your argument? The second poll isn't fair because FemShep 5 won the first one and changing her hair color goes against those that voted before. Bioware needs to make sure everything is fair to me or else they are decieving their fans and losing integrity.  Nevermind the fact that the point of the poll was to give the fans what they wanted, which was not a blonde FemShep. Anything I missed besides this in several different words? Seems like a weak argument to me.
 
As I've said, Bioware doesn't answer to you and your idea of right and wrong. Their marketing strategies don't have to be fair to you, you are not involved in their marketing decision-making and neither is any fan, we are the ones they are pleasing.  And whether you like it or not, giving them a non-Blonde Femshep pleases the fans. Please, debate this if you'd like. This poll was completely fan service that turned into a "give me what I want or it's unfair" contest. Can you debate that? You can try!

Whereas I understand and disagree with your arguments, while giving you reasons why, you falsely accuse me of ridiculous things with nonexistant proof and call anyone who actually argues with you a hater who just paints everyone with a bad brush. I think I'd win the class debate.

Damn I love debating, but it's not fun when you talk to a brick wall.

Modifié par RynJ, 25 août 2011 - 04:40 .

[Balek-Vriege]

RynJ wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

[Of course the statements above don't make sense, they're a summary of what you have been writing.  That was the point.   

For example:

"This all mostly sounds like sour grapes" sure does sound like accuse most, if not all as crybabies.  You say you never said those who disagree with you are all whiners.  However, you've heavily suggested that anyone who believes something unfair happened here are totally wrong.   You also suggest that allc omplaining here is whining.  Complaining and whining are two different things.  It's just above, in that quote.  Are the words lying to me?

If you're not going to back up your points, while making very unforgiving and blank statements, at least refer to the points others have made so people know where you're coming from.  If you're so convinced it shouldn't be too hard.  Also when a good point is made, I noticed it's almost universally ignored by people who think nothing wrong happened.  If you ignore a point in a real debate, you would lose that round.


If none of this is the case,  maybe you should just be more clear about what you post and maybe just a little less absolutist?  People are bound to misunderstand what you type.

I might consider that if I heard any good points. You put words in my mouth while accusing me of having nothing to back up my arguments, where is your proof? When you accuse you need the proof, not me. You lose a debate with no proof. Of course I know why, it's because there isn't anything because I never said any of the things you accused me of saying.

Sounds to me like you can't handle someone disagreeing with you, funny that you paint everyone who opposes you with that brush. And complaining is whining when it's excessive and pointless!

And are you going to tell me it's not sour grapes? Because that's a little unbelievable. And I don't make unforgiving and blank statements, I make truthful statements that you don't like.  Why is it that you're in the right while everyone else is in the wrong?

You want me to sum up your argument? The second poll isn't fair because FemShep 5 won the first one and Bioware needs to make sure everything is fair to me or else they are decieving their fans and losing integrity. Anything I missed besides this in several different words? Seems like a weak argument to me. As I've said, Bioware doesn't answer to you and your idea of right and wrong. Their marketing strategies don't have to be fair to you, you are not involved and neither is any fan. This poll was completely fan service that turned into a "give me what I want or it's unfair" contest. Can you debate that? You can try!

Whereas I understand and disagree with your arguments, while giving you reasons why, you falsely accuse me of ridiculous things and call anyone who actually argues with you a hater who just paints everyone with a bad brush. I think I'd win the class debate.

Damn I love debating, but it's not fun when you talk to a brick wall.

First off much better, that's the type of post I like.

Also I don't mind people disagreeing with me.  What I do like is a good debate (obviously).  I'm not trying to convince you that my argument is right., just that people may have valid arguments.  Not exactly an extreme concept here.  Now the ways I go on to support my points may be.
 

Actually I think I have personally shown I will admit to mistakes and points I think are valid even if they disprove my own notions throughout this debate  (eye shape, marketing points, that poll 1 may be unfair in the first place, that it's valid the vast majority didn't want Femshep 5 etc.).  How many points have you compromised on?  I don't mind admitting to being wrong when I am.  I don't believe too many others have been able to do the same.  I'm also not an absolutist in my arguments, even if I think they're pretty dead on.  So I don't know where you got the brick wall from, or is it because I don't back down completely in the face of your lack of supporting arguments?

Now to the actual point of your post:

-Are there sour grapes in this?  Of course, that's why we're having this debate.
-Is it just because blonde shep voters didn't get what they wanted?  No, but arguably some of it and rightfully so.  They did win poll 1. 
-Is it all of it?  No, for reasons stated previously.  I personally don't care at all about Blonde Shep anymore if she came back or not.  Redshep is 90% of Femshep 5.
-Does it have more to do with unfairness in the process for some or many?  Yes it does.
-Was it the right thing for Bioware to have a second poll?  Debatable.
-Can Bioware do whatever they want?  Of course, unless it's illegal of course.
-Does Marketing have to be fair?  Of course not.
-When you make a poll for marketing allowing fans to decide things, shouldn't it be as fair as possible as to not have any marketing blowback?  If I was in charge yes, but i'm not.
-If it's not completely fair, should you expect no one to complain?  No.
-In the end, is this a really small issue?  Yes
-Are the people at Bioware human and make mistakes?  Yes


So it comes back again to do people complaining have valid points about fairness.  Many say no Bioware has the right to do whatever they want with marketing (agree).  That's not the point.  People felt marginalized by the process.  It happens and it's a fair point.  They shouldn't all be painted as whiners because they're posting such complaints in the official forum for ME3.  That's all i'm arguing here.


If you want a good point why the second poll may be unfair to a majority of Femshep 5 voters from the first poll, just look back at page 87, 10th post from the bottom where I actually use math, percentages and the real votes from the polls to help prove my main point.  I even show most of my work.  Also related are my posts from about pages 73ish-77.

Edit:  You would still lose the debate if you don't back up your points.

I remember one time back in the day I was on a roll in English class with one liner rebuttals and funny innuendo which really helped me win overall among classmates.  Point wise I actually lost the debate by a point or two because of it.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 25 août 2011 - 05:26 .

[Fata Morgana]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Fata Morgana wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

gamer_girl wrote...
Definitely not the only one. Fata Morgana and I are two of them.

You two have spent a lot of time posting about something you don't care about. /shrug

I don't care how FemShep looks.

I do care about people urinating on Bioware just because they didn't get what they wanted.

Is it really urinating though?  Or is it actual valid complaints. 

I don't count your comments among the urinators, though I do think you're requesting a level of perfection that no company could possibly attain.  

The urinators/defecators are those with things in their sigs like "Bioware hates blondes" and saying things like Blonde is only losing because of racism (lol).

[Balek-Vriege]

Fata Morgana wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Fata Morgana wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

gamer_girl wrote...
Definitely not the only one. Fata Morgana and I are two of them.

You two have spent a lot of time posting about something you don't care about. /shrug

I don't care how FemShep looks.

I do care about people urinating on Bioware just because they didn't get what they wanted.

Is it really urinating though?  Or is it actual valid complaints. 

I don't count your comments among the urinators, though I do think you're requesting a level of perfection that no company could possibly attain.  

The urinators/defecators are those with things in their sigs like "Bioware hates blondes" and saying things like Blonde is only losing because of racism (lol).

I agree.  No way to even prove or come close to proving that's the case.

[RynJ]

Ah, 1 am debates are fun.

I still don't appreciate you accusing me of being on par with a troll though, when I did nothing of the sort. It's my biggest pet peeve when people say something about me that is completely untrue. That part about me not bashing Red hair Shep and calling everyone Black/Red haters? Yeah I really didn't get that.

Just like I can't say for sure that most people posting here are whiners, you can't say that they aren't. To me, when complaints are too numerous and do absolutely nothing but make white noise then I call it whining. I see many of these "valid points" as whining, though obviously you don't. Agreement doesn't make for a fun fight though, does it?

There are definitely some sour grapes on here, you might not be one of them but they are here. I see many former blonde lovers and "Deal with it" wielders who are on here crying now, just like I see former blond complainers on here celebrating. I find both annoying.

The only point I concede (which I actually never even said) was that every single poster on here was a whiner. To be honest I really don't care enough to look into the math of things or even read your earlier post (sorry! I'm tired.) But all I know is that the majority of the fans don't want Blonde Shepard based on voting numbers, which to me makes the 2nd poll both valid and the right decision by Bioware. The suggestions of commenters for different hair colors were added and I find the idea that people who voted for the original #5 are now invalidated silly. Blonde is still on there, and is still voteable so to me that makes it fair. And please don't say anything about freckles and "split votes" for blonde or I will lose all respect for you oh debate buddy.

Polls like this are only meant to please as many fans as possible, and whether you think it's fair or not it did that, and to me that should be the only thing that matters. On that I won't concede. You have a differing view sure, but that doesn't matter. What's done is done.

In the end, fair or not, the majority of FemShep fans are getting as close to what they want as possible (not including previous Shep contenders of course), and I'm content with that even if you and many others aren't.

Edit: When did I write all of that? Most people can't even write 1 coherent sentence when they're as tired as I am and I end up writing a short story.

Modifié par RynJ, 25 août 2011 - 05:50 .

[Balek-Vriege]

RynJ wrote...

Ah, 1 am debates are fun.

I still don't appreciate you accusing me of being on par with a troll though, when I did nothing of the sort. It's my biggest pet peeve when people say something about me that is completely untrue. That part about me not bashing Red hair Shep and calling everyone Black/Red haters? Yeah I really didn't get that.

Just like I can't say for sure that most people posting here are whiners, you can't say that they aren't. To me, when complaints are too numerous and do absolutely nothing but make white noise then I call it whining. I see many of these "valid points" as whining, though obviously you don't. Agreement doesn't make for a fun fight though, does it?

There are definitely some sour grapes on here, you might not be one of them but they are here. I see many former blonde lovers and "Deal with it" wielders who are on here crying now, just like I see former blond complainers on here celebrating. I find both annoying.

The only point I concede (which I actually never even said) was that every single poster on here was a whiner. To be honest I really don't care enough to look into the math of things or even read your earlier post (sorry! I'm tired.) But all I know is that the majority of the fans don't want Blonde Shepard based on voting numbers, which to me makes the 2nd poll both valid and the right decision by Bioware. The suggestions of commenters for different hair colors were added and I find the idea that people who voted for the original #5 are now invalidated silly. Blonde is still on there, and is still voteable so to me that makes it fair. And please don't say anything about freckles and "split votes" for blonde or I will lose all respect for you oh debate buddy.

Polls like this are only meant to please as many fans as possible, and whether you think it's fair or not it did that, and to me that should be the only thing that matters. On that I won't concede. You have a differing view sure, but that doesn't matter. What's done is done.

In the end, fair or not, the majority of FemShep fans are getting as close to what they want as possible (not including previous Shep contenders of course), and I'm content with that even if you and many others aren't.

Edit: When did I write all of that? Most people can't even write 1 coherent sentence when they're as tired as I am and I end up writing a short story.

Fair enough, save for I don't remember comparing you to a troll.  I don't even know what a troll really is  (used against just about anyone who disagrees with a point more than once).  So I try not to use that attack and just let others decide what a troll is.


And yes like I have mentioned before:  There has been a vast majority who haven't voted for Femshep 5 (like  56%+) since the first poll.

The only thing I would add is a summary of that poll percentages post I had.  Basically translated votes in poll 1 to something very similar to poll 2, working off only 3 basic assumptions that the second vote was unfair.  Not only were the percentages very close, but I ended up with less votes for Blondes/Dirty Blondes than in the real poll 2.  That meant I was either forgetting something or one of my assumptions were too extreme in favour of the anti Femshep 5/Blonde side.  Leaving open the possibility that after all of the unknown/random factors kick in, the minority of people who voted for Femshep 5 could have been the people who wanted to change the hair colour, and the majority were voters who liked the original blonde Femshep.  That calls into question why the second poll was done if the decision was based off "Well, most Femshep 5 voters wanted a different hair colour."  I will let others decide whether that matters or not.

What is not debatable now is that the majority of all voters would like something else other than Blonde/Dirty hair.  Maybe that's the best thing about the second poll.  It allows everyone a final say on the final product, but it does arguably come at the price of marginalizing a certain group who did win fairly in the first poll or those who only like Femshep 5 because of Blonde hair.  In the end the new Femshep 5 will be 90% of the original Femshep 5.

Seems we agree on a few points.  We just have differing views of whether there was unfairness in the first place and if there was, does it matter.  As long as there's at least an acknowledgement that there could have been unfairness in the process,  i'm happy.


Edits:  Fixed some things up.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 25 août 2011 - 02:32 .

[RynJ]

Balek-Vriege wrote...


Leaving open the possibility that after all of the unknown/random factors kick in, the minority of people who voted for Femshep 5 could have been the people who wanted to change the hair colour, and the majority were voters who liked the original blonde Femshep.  That calls into question why the second poll was done if the decision was based off "Well, most Femshep 5 voters wanted a different hair colour."  I will let others decide whether that matters or not.

There is no way you could possibly know that's the truth. Unless you knew how every person voted you can't make statements like that. For all we know 90% of FemShep 5 voters wanted a different hair color, hell could have even been 5%. That is not a fact that can ever be really known unless you talked to every voter and found out exactly why they voted for 5. Because of that fact alone, no, it doesn't matter because it's nothing more than a possibility.

I don't think that really calls anything into question about the 2nd poll, Bioware probably just saw the many comments about wanting a different hair color on Facebook and here and decided to give it a shot.  I don't think they cared whether they were certain that the majority of FemShep 5 voters wanted it, because they probably assumed if they didn't they'd just vote blonde again. No harm no foul

Edit: Oh, and when did Bioware ever say they made the 2nd poll because "most voters wanted a different hair color?"  They said they made it because a lot of people expressed interest about it, there was never talk of a majority as far as I remember.

Modifié par RynJ, 25 août 2011 - 04:20 .

[AlphaJarmel]

RynJ wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...


Leaving open the possibility that after all of the unknown/random factors kick in, the minority of people who voted for Femshep 5 could have been the people who wanted to change the hair colour, and the majority were voters who liked the original blonde Femshep.  That calls into question why the second poll was done if the decision was based off "Well, most Femshep 5 voters wanted a different hair colour."  I will let others decide whether that matters or not.

There is no way you could possibly know that's the truth. Unless you knew how every person voted you can't make statements like that. For all we know 90% of FemShep 5 voters wanted a different hair color, hell could have even been 5%. That is not a fact that can ever be really known unless you talked to every voter and found out exactly why they voted for 5. Because of that fact alone, no, it doesn't matter because it's nothing more than a possibility.

I don't think that really calls anything into question about the 2nd poll, Bioware probably just saw the many comments about wanting a different hair color on Facebook and here and decided to give it a shot.  I don't think they cared whether they were certain that the majority of FemShep 5 voters wanted it, because they probably assumed if they didn't they'd just vote blonde again. No harm no foul

Edit: Oh, and when did Bioware ever say they made the 2nd poll because "most voters wanted a different hair color?"  They said they made it because a lot of people expressed interest about it, there was never talk of a majority as far as I remember.

Statistics.  There is a way to calculate the likelyhood of a certain outcome however to do so you would need to take a random sample from both groups which is not possible in this case.

In addition due to the possibility of multi-voting, a large group of people could have voted for all six options in the first poll and just red in the second poll.

[Shotokanguy]

Damn, 89 pages now.

I wonder how many people don't care about this new FemShep anymore? I just realized I don't.

[gamer_girl]

Voting should be closed or almost closed anyways. They said the winner would be announced at PAX

[Balek-Vriege]

AlphaJarmel wrote...

RynJ wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...


Leaving open the possibility that after all of the unknown/random factors kick in, the minority of people who voted for Femshep 5 could have been the people who wanted to change the hair colour, and the majority were voters who liked the original blonde Femshep.  That calls into question why the second poll was done if the decision was based off "Well, most Femshep 5 voters wanted a different hair colour."  I will let others decide whether that matters or not.

There is no way you could possibly know that's the truth. Unless you knew how every person voted you can't make statements like that. For all we know 90% of FemShep 5 voters wanted a different hair color, hell could have even been 5%. That is not a fact that can ever be really known unless you talked to every voter and found out exactly why they voted for 5. Because of that fact alone, no, it doesn't matter because it's nothing more than a possibility.

I don't think that really calls anything into question about the 2nd poll, Bioware probably just saw the many comments about wanting a different hair color on Facebook and here and decided to give it a shot.  I don't think they cared whether they were certain that the majority of FemShep 5 voters wanted it, because they probably assumed if they didn't they'd just vote blonde again. No harm no foul

Edit: Oh, and when did Bioware ever say they made the 2nd poll because "most voters wanted a different hair color?"  They said they made it because a lot of people expressed interest about it, there was never talk of a majority as far as I remember.

Statistics.  There is a way to calculate the likelyhood of a certain outcome however to do so you would need to take a random sample from both groups which is not possible in this case.

In addition due to the possibility of multi-voting, a large group of people could have voted for all six options in the first poll and just red in the second poll.

@AlphaJarmel

Yep and what I did is about as close as you can get using numbers (and again, pretty close).  There's many possible reasons as to why I got less % for Blonde/Dirty Blonde.  It could be as simple as putting too many votes towards Femshep 1 and 4 in poll 2, multi votes, different people voting and the list goes on. 

@RynJ
Yes something like 90% of blonde shep voters could have liked a different hair colour, but highly unlikely since you would end up with results completely different than the real results of poll 2.  Assumptions would have to be made against common sense (like the majority of people who voted against Femshep 5 in poll 1 are likely to vote for original Femshep 5 in poll 2).  My assumptions in my fake poll were almost identical to the results of poll 2.  It wasn't hard and the assumptions were quite simple.

If Bioware's reason was that, they really didn't think it through from a marketing blowback point of view.  I really do hope it wasn't a "oh lets just do another one for fun!" type of decision.  Shows a lack of understanding about polls, control groups and what fan reactions would/could be.  I think it's more probable they saw the success of the first event, felt a majority of people and the majority of Femshep votes (from facebook comments) wanted a different hair colour, and Gamescon was coming up.  So the decision was made for another poll and another successful marketing run.

As for the Edit, the only evidence is an off remark when the poll was presented at Gamescon.  Basically the announcer said "This poll is another chance to give the fans what they really want" to paraphrase.   Again, it just shows intent thatBioware may have thought most people wanted a different hair colour.  That is the case based off the results of poll 2, i'm just wondering if they did it based off that or thought most Femshep 5 voters wanted it too because of 50+ comments on facebook.  We will never know if they were truly a majority of Femshep 5 voters or not.


Edit:

Shotokanguy wrote...

Damn, 89 pages now.

I wonder how many people don't care about this new FemShep anymore? I just realized I don't.

I don't think too many people did in the first place (except in the first round with a lot of Blonde hate for some reason).  Even the weird "she looks like she's mid 20s and should look 40 even though she's only 29-32 in the game!" type arguments have been non existent since the first poll.  Most of this argument has been about if Bioware handled this correctly, not specifically about whether you like the New Femshep or the New New Femshep best.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 26 août 2011 - 03:12 .

[AlphaJarmel]

@Balek

I really didn't want to get involved in this but the biggest problems with your results is you base them on a either vote, in that you only get to select one. Based on that, it's very possibly to have signficant overlapping votes thus diminishing the overall number. The whole thing is a mess without a random group who have identified why they voted as such and who they voted for.

Now you can make general statements based off of the two polls but to state intentions is pretty much near impossible without a simple random sample.

Modifié par AlphaJarmel, 26 août 2011 - 03:41 .

[Nozybidaj]

Balek-Vriege wrote...
I don't think too many people did in the first place

I do actually, though not so much which one they use for the trailer/box cover, but definitely care about which one gets the high quality face morph/skin texture come ME3.  Assuming of course femShep gets a custom default made comparable to Sheploo, which if this is not the case I cease to care immediately.

If that is the case however the femShep with the most votes should win.  Since femShep 5 from the first vote is the only one to break 30K and no other single femShep from either vote could break 20K I think its clear which femShep got the most votes.

Edit: and actually I should qualify that statement, no femShep from vote 2 broke 20K since that is the poll I was looking at when I typed that.  I don't recall if any of the others from vote 1 broke 20K or not.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 26 août 2011 - 04:25 .

[AlphaJarmel]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...
I don't think too many people did in the first place

I do actually, though not so much which one they use for the trailer/box cover, but definitely care about which one gets the high quality face morph/skin texture come ME3.  Assuming of course femShep gets a custom default made comparable to Sheploo, which if this is not the case I cease to care immediately.

If that is the case however the femShep with the most votes should win.  Since femShep 5 from the first vote is the only one to break 30K and no other single femShep from either vote could break 20K I think its clear which femShep got the most votes.

Second poll had less time.

[gamer_girl]

Balek you can't assume that the way you calculated it is the way it actually happened because in your process you made some assumptions also. You assumed that split votes always happened, or that people only ever voted for one Shep. You have to consider that there is always a number of ways to get to the same conclusion. ie. 10+10=20, but 12+8 also equals 20, as well as 18+2. To assume that the way you calculated is the way it actually took place just because you got a similar result to the actual poll is quite silly. Nobody knows whose votes actually went where, or how many votes they made, or why they voted the way they did so nobody is more right than any other person based on "statistics".

Modifié par gamer_girl, 26 août 2011 - 04:09 .

[Balek-Vriege]

AlphaJarmel wrote...

@Balek

I really didn't want to get involved in this but the biggest problems with your results is you base them on a either vote, in that you only get to select one. Based on that, it's very possibly to have signficant overlapping votes thus diminishing the overall number. The whole thing is a mess without a random group who have identified why they voted as such and who they voted for.

Now you can make general statements based off of the two polls but to state intentions is pretty much near impossible without a simple random sample.

No problem and I won't try to get you involved.


What you say is absolutely true and I even say in the original post exaclty what you stated.  I'm not trying to prove it's true, but i'm not trying to prove it's just a faint possibility either.  Just that it's "realistically" possible that my scenario "could" be the case.  What better way than to translate my assumptions/general statements into numbers, let the numbers fall where they may and see if my fake poll looks like the real poll 2.  If they were completely out of whack with poll 2, I would know i'm not even close to the real reasons why it looks the way it does.  However, my scenario came pretty close to poll 2 and closer than I originally thought.  So I think my assumptions about some unfairness do hold a grain of salt.

Multi-voting is a big deal regardless and kills the fairness of both polls anyways.  I would assume most people would just vote once for the one they liked best, but there has to be a lot who aren't sure and just end up voting for both (or all the options they like).  The reasons for people voting for or against are endless so I didn't even try to incorporate them in.  For all we know they mostly cancel eachother out.


There was a strong push that it wasn't possible for Femshep 5 voters to have been unfairly marginalized by the second vote and didn't have any basis for their arguments.  I have been trying to debunk that notion which I feel is a bit extreme.  General statements and common sense weren't working too well since the same arguments were being repeated every 5-10 pages.  So I thought by showing some numbers (by the way, the first half is just the pure statistics with no playing around on my part) and by showing a viable scenario, that at least that point would be acknowledged and the ever circling debate would die out or move forward a bit.
 
I'm not too niave to think it will/would actually work.  It never does.


Edit:

gamer_girl wrote...

Balek you can't assume that the way you calculated it is the way it actually happened because in your process you made some assumptions also. You assumed that split votes always happened, or that people only ever voted for one Shep. You have to consider that there is always a number of ways to get to the same conclusion. ie. 10+10=20, but 12+8 also equals 20, as well as 18+2. To assume that the way you calculated is the way it actually took place just because you got a similar result to the actual poll is quite silly. Nobody knows whose votes actually went where, or how many votes they made, or why they voted the way they did so nobody is more right than any other person based on "statistics".

Again very true.  You wouldn't deny though that all those equations do equal 20 and are all possible ways to achieve the number 20.  In the case of these polls you have to make some common sense and logic to how you get to 20 (whatever the subject is), based off the reality of the situation.  If I said that almost all of the votes for Femsheps 1-4 & 6 were going to vote for blonde, you would understandably disagree with me especially after doing some similar math.  That would be like saying 18+16=20.  The opinion lacks common sense.

Also I didn't assume 1 vote in my fake poll.  I just broke down the results along lines of thinking and probable problems with poll 2 engineering. The fact there are individuals tallying up multiple likes might actually represent their opinion better than 1 like only, at the expense of not showing extreme views as powerful as they should be represented.

Edit 2: Typos

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 26 août 2011 - 04:43 .

[gamer_girl]

Even though the numbers came close, that doesn't mean at all that they're likely what happened. There are endless (not literally) possibilities from number of voters to why they voted as they did that would result in those exact numbers, so I don't find it all that compelling. I appreciate the work you went through to do it and all, but I personally just don't think it's very convincing.

Modifié par gamer_girl, 26 août 2011 - 04:21 .

[Nozybidaj]

gamer_girl wrote...

Even though the numbers came close, that doesn't mean at all that they're likely what happened. There are endless (not literally) possibilities from number of voters to why they voted as they did that would result in those exact numbers, so I don't find it all that compelling. I appreciate the work you went through to do it and all, but I personally just don't think it's very convincing.

The only way anyone could make the case that vote 2 indicates which hair color people prefered is if the only folks that could have voted in vote #2 were the 31K and some odd folks that voted for femShep 5 in vote 1, and then only gave them 1 vote.  As it is the options in vote 2 might as well just be considered additional options to vote #1 since anyone can vote.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 26 août 2011 - 04:28 .

[Balek-Vriege]

gamer_girl wrote...

Even though the numbers came close, that doesn't mean at all that they're likely what happened. There are endless (not literally) possibilities from number of voters to why they voted as they did that would result in those exact numbers, so I don't find it all that compelling. I appreciate the work you went through to do it and all, but I personally just don't think it's very convincing.

You're completely in your right to think that too.

This is where I wanted the argument to go from my stand point.  That there could have been unfairness in having another poll.  It doesn't mean there 100% was, but it doesn't mean there 100% wasn't.  That there is a scenario that is possible in which Bioware marginalized a group of voting fans who won a particular option.  By that reasoning, people who voted/liked Femshep 5, helped her win poll 1 and feel unfairly treated by poll 2 do have a point and do have a right to voice their concerns about the process.

[RynJ]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

You're completely in your right to think that too.

This is where I wanted the argument to go from my stand point.  That there could have been unfairness in having another poll.  It doesn't mean there 100% was, but it doesn't mean there 100% wasn't.  That there is a scenario that is possible in which Bioware marginalized a group of voting fans who won a particular option.  By that reasoning, people who voted/liked Femshep 5, helped her win poll 1 and feel unfairly treated by poll 2 do have a point and do have a right to voice their concerns about the process.

There is also a possibility that Bioware is doing the poll as an evil plan to control the minds of all of its voters. There's also a chance that they won't listen to our vote at all. There's a possibility that they'll cancel the game altogether.

You can't  call a poll unfair because there is a "possibility" that it could be unfair. What about the possibility that it was completely fair?  There's also a possibility that the first poll was biased toward blonde or towards another FemShep. There's also a possibility that Bioware planned the 2nd poll all along.

No offense, but that argument is kinda silly. It sounds like you're grasping at straws that just aren't there. If everyone complained about  "possible" unfair treatment then the complaints would never end. Possible is not a feasible basis for, well anything really.
 

Modifié par RynJ, 26 août 2011 - 02:09 .

[Balek-Vriege]

RynJ wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

You're completely in your right to think that too.

This is where I wanted the argument to go from my stand point.  That there could have been unfairness in having another poll.  It doesn't mean there 100% was, but it doesn't mean there 100% wasn't.  That there is a scenario that is possible in which Bioware marginalized a group of voting fans who won a particular option.  By that reasoning, people who voted/liked Femshep 5, helped her win poll 1 and feel unfairly treated by poll 2 do have a point and do have a right to voice their concerns about the process.

There is also a possibility that Bioware is doing the poll as an evil plan to control the minds of all of its voters. There's also a chance that they won't listen to our vote at all. There's a possibility that they'll cancel the game altogether.

You can't  call a poll unfair because there is a "possibility" that it could be unfair. What about the possibility that it was completely fair?  There's also a possibility that the first poll was biased toward blonde or towards another FemShep. There's also a possibility that Bioware planned the 2nd poll all along.

No offense, but that argument is kinda silly. It sounds like you're grasping at straws that just aren't there.
 

I could say the same about your point of view.  You're trying to use one obviously extreme notion which I have never argued in order to make my very fair argument seem implausible, which isn't the case.  Have I tried to show that Bioware has a mind control device somewhere in their HQ?  No.


Just that it's possible that there could have been unfairness and showed how simple a scenario there could be, through math and statistics based off the real polls, that it be the case.  Not exactly grasping at straws.  Grasping at straws is more like trying to ignore all my points as if they could never exist, ever, in this reality or the next and trying to spin my simple point into something more extreme so you can attack it easier with baseless claims.

Yes the first poll could have been unfair as well.  However, everyone knew the rules before going in and what the problems were in the first place.  If Bioware was going to do a second poll all a long, shouldn't they have given some type of notice before the first poll even began?  I think so, it would have changed some votes or the way people voted (more/less multi votes).  Who knows.

I find this notion that it's impossible that there could have been unfairness and that people have no right to voice their concern is a bit silly.

[RynJ]

Balek-Vriege wrote...
I could say the same about your point of view.  You're trying to use one obviously extreme notion which I have never argued in order to make my very fair argument seem implausible, which isn't the case.  Have I tried to show that Bioware has a mind control device somewhere in their HQ?  No.


Just that it's possible that there could have been unfairness and showed how simple a scenario there could be, through math and statistics based off the real polls, that it be the case.  Not exactly grasping at straws.  Grasping at straws is more like trying to ignore all my points as if they could never exist, ever, in this reality or the next and trying to spin my simple point into something more extreme so you can attack it easier with baseless claims.

Yes the first poll could have been unfair as well.  However, everyone knew the rules before going in and what the problems were in the first place.  If Bioware was going to do a second poll all a long, shouldn't they have given some type of notice before the first poll even began?  I think so, it would have changed some votes or the way people voted (more/less multi votes).  Who knows.

I find this notion that it's impossible that there could have been unfairness and that people have no right to voice their concern is a bit silly.

You take me very literally don't you, I thought I was very obviously exaggerating.  Yes it was intentionally extreme, but it still illustrates my point.  I never said you said things to that degree, but it is on par with it on a lesser scale.  Everything has the possibility to be unfair, just like it has the possibility to be fair, so why do you lean towards unfair?  And a fair argument does not equal a good argument, especially when it uses statistics that have no really believable basis (sample groups, etc.)  It's probably possible to swing such "statistics" to argue the other way around.

Again, if everyone complained about what could possibly be unfair then you could complain about everything.  Basing an argument off of that does not bring anything to the table other then "what ifs" which you could put to any argument in the world.  You seem to lean towards the assumed possibilty that the poll is unfair, which is a fine opinion but possibilities don't always equal reality. Don't voice things like your point of view is the correct one when you use an argument like that.

When you base your complaints off of nothing more than a possibility, and there are infinite possibilities, it becomes silly to me, and also becomes close to what I call whining. You can voice your opinion all you want, free speech is a wonderful thing, but at that point it just becomes noise.

Also, I don't think knowing about the 2nd poll would have changed the results of the 2nd. Though it may have changed the results of the first (but probably not because a lot of people really liked 5s hairstyle since it was known that longer hair was wanted.)

What's funny is when people say that Bioware should have told them about the second poll.  I just wonder when they said during the first poll that "this is the only poll ever and that's it and there's no more the end."  Making a second poll is not such an unbelievable step and many anticipated it before it happened.  You don't need to be informed of every decision Bioware makes ahead of time and not being informed does not make it unfair.  There is a lot of game content decisions that we only see when we play the game and never heard of previously.  Should I complain that Bioware never told me about it before hand so it's unfair? The 2nd poll is not "changing the game rules" like some people say because there never were any strict rules.

Modifié par RynJ, 26 août 2011 - 04:42 .

[Captain Crash]

Well it seems Red head has won! Bioware Store has released T-Shirts already!   


Male
http://biowarestore....llustration-tee





Female
http://biowarestore....llustration-tee

Modifié par Captain Crash, 26 août 2011 - 10:23 .