2285 réponses à ce sujet

[Fdingo]

That is dooope!

[Balek-Vriege]

RynJ wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...
I could say the same about your point of view.  You're trying to use one obviously extreme notion which I have never argued in order to make my very fair argument seem implausible, which isn't the case.  Have I tried to show that Bioware has a mind control device somewhere in their HQ?  No.


Just that it's possible that there could have been unfairness and showed how simple a scenario there could be, through math and statistics based off the real polls, that it be the case.  Not exactly grasping at straws.  Grasping at straws is more like trying to ignore all my points as if they could never exist, ever, in this reality or the next and trying to spin my simple point into something more extreme so you can attack it easier with baseless claims.

Yes the first poll could have been unfair as well.  However, everyone knew the rules before going in and what the problems were in the first place.  If Bioware was going to do a second poll all a long, shouldn't they have given some type of notice before the first poll even began?  I think so, it would have changed some votes or the way people voted (more/less multi votes).  Who knows.

I find this notion that it's impossible that there could have been unfairness and that people have no right to voice their concern is a bit silly.

You take me very literally don't you, I thought I was very obviously exaggerating.  Yes it was intentionally extreme, but it still illustrates my point.  I never said you said things to that degree, but it is on par with it on a lesser scale.  Everything has the possibility to be unfair, just like it has the possibility to be fair, so why do you lean towards unfair?  And a fair argument does not equal a good argument, especially when it uses statistics that have no really believable basis (sample groups, etc.)  It's probably possible to swing such "statistics" to argue the other way around.

Again, if everyone complained about what could possibly be unfair then you could complain about everything.  Basing an argument off of that does not bring anything to the table other then "what ifs" which you could put to any argument in the world.  You seem to lean towards the assumed possibilty that the poll is unfair, which is a fine opinion but possibilities don't always equal reality. Don't voice things like your point of view is the correct one when you use an argument like that.

When you base your complaints off of nothing more than a possibility, and there are infinite possibilities, it becomes silly to me, and also becomes close to what I call whining. You can voice your opinion all you want, free speech is a wonderful thing, but at that point it just becomes noise.

Also, I don't think knowing about the 2nd poll would have changed the results of the 2nd. Though it may have changed the results of the first (but probably not because a lot of people really liked 5s hairstyle since it was known that longer hair was wanted.)

What's funny is when people say that Bioware should have told them about the second poll.  I just wonder when they said during the first poll that "this is the only poll ever and that's it and there's no more the end."  Making a second poll is not such an unbelievable step and many anticipated it before it happened.  You don't need to be informed of every decision Bioware makes ahead of time and not being informed does not make it unfair.  There is a lot of game content decisions that we only see when we play the game and never heard of previously.  Should I complain that Bioware never told me about it before hand so it's unfair? The 2nd poll is not "changing the game rules" like some people say because there never were any strict rules.

I think you used exxageration the wrong way there.  It's like someone saying they don't like a certain type of cookie because its salty and you saying well if you don't like that cookie there's no way you can like any other cookie because they're cookies too.  You're ingoring the fact the person stated it tasted a bit salty and that may have been the reason they didn't like that specific one.

Don't get me wrong:  I do feel the process was unfair to a certain portion of the community and I think I have shown more than enough support to show people were actually marginalized in reality..  However, I can't argue or have my ideas fairly digested by someone who incorrectly fails to acknowledge it's even a possiblity. 

Take your position for example.  At first you started with a very extreme argument that people who felt the process was even slightly unfair, were all whiners who shouldn't be posting, are too passionate about the issue and there is absolutely no unfairness in the process.  All while failing to present a single point why that may be the case.  When eventually challenged on not doing so, you said you didn't have to (but obviously everyone else does right?).

When more support is given and you're further called out on your extremes, you became the victim all of a sudden by being labeled as a "troll," even though some of your posts (and others like it) could have been considered more offensive to others than those accusing you of such. (late edit: typos)

When you're finally presented with a thoughtful post using real numbers from both polls and are faced with the fact that unfairness is at least a viable scenario, you instead say it's only a possiblity and therefore probably didn't happen.  All while your abstract scenario of events remain undefined and are mysteriously exempt from having to be proven to make your point.  Then you come back to the conclusion that because you don't want to acknowledge there's good points being made about process concerns, you returned to your extreme view that everyone voicing a concern/complaint is in fact, a whiner (high pitched crybaby).

If your generalities don't need to be proven or supported strongly, than neither do mine.


More on topic though.  I was thinking this morning of what it would look like to do a similar math excersise based off the assumptions I consider extreme:

-Vast majority who voted against Femshep 5 in poll 1 would do so again in poll 2 (save this one, but you have to start with it)
-A vast majority of Femshep 5 voters wanted a different hair colour
-There was no vote splitting between Femshep 2 and 3 in the second poll
-No other factors had an effect on the second poll

And see if it comes close to the second poll results for Femshep 5.  I think you would find there may be way too many votes against Blonde Femshep compared to reality.  To the point even counting unknowns factors wouldn't even make up for the heavily slanted numbers.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 26 août 2011 - 10:52 .

[Balek-Vriege]

Captain Crash wrote...

Well it seems Red head has won! Bioware Store has released T-Shirts already!   


Male
http://biowarestore....llustration-tee





Female
http://biowarestore....llustration-tee

Those look pretty awsome.  Not sure a Blonde Femshep shirt would have looked as cool in black and white.



Edit:  I double posted for those shirts too.

I wonder if they will have an ingame face or even a trailer at PAX.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 26 août 2011 - 10:46 .

[Fata Morgana]

Schweeet, t-shirts. I love you Bioware.

[Wynne]

Wow, those t-shirts... I want one!

[shepskisaac]

Final FemShep reveal tomorrow at 12pm PDT. Wonder if it will end the drama or refuel it xD

Modifié par IsaacShep, 26 août 2011 - 11:14 .

[Captain Crash]

 Well if you enter code "BWTV11" you can get 25% of it (and any other Bioware store product) up until 6pm PDT  (whenever the is)  but act fast basically!



Also its great to see her on a t-shirt.  Next stop a Lithograph hopefully!   

[faneriewar]

FemShep reveal tomorrow! >

[Balek-Vriege]

IsaacShep wrote...

Final FemShep reveal tomorrow at 12pm PDT. Wonder if it will end the drama or refuel it xD

It will definitely end this drama.  No garanteee it won't start another one.

Regardless, i'm psyched for the final reveal.

[Captain Crash]

What hurts is I know that some lucky fans there will get some reveal loot while we stay here all jealous and bitter!!  

:innocent:     


Even so still cant wait!!! :happy:

[Captain Crash]

Oh Jen Hale is at PAX by the way so it should be a good reveal  :happy:

http://twitter.com/#...220214562832385

Modifié par Captain Crash, 26 août 2011 - 11:40 .

[Balek-Vriege]

Captain Crash wrote...

What hurts is I know that some lucky fans there will get some reveal loot while we stay here all jealous and bitter!!  

:innocent:     


Even so still cant wait!!! :happy:

I don't think we will be bitter.  However, those fans should share there PAX loot with the rest of us...

[Nozybidaj]

Captain Crash wrote...

Well it seems Red head has won! Bioware Store has released T-Shirts already!

Not surprising I suppose, even though red head femSheps received less votes than blonde sheps BW is too afraid someone is going to call her BarbieShep.  /shrug Talk about no backbone....

[RhiPanda]

@Nozybidaj, most people who voted blonde shep voted for the hairstlye not colour, kidna proved by the second round of voting. Also yay looking forward to the reveal

[Nozybidaj]

RhiPanda wrote...

@Nozybidaj, most people who voted blonde shep voted for the hairstlye not colour, kidna proved by the second round of voting. Also yay looking forward to the reveal

So you personally went and asked all 31,500 people that voted for Blonde shep in vote 1 why they voted the way they did or are you basing this off the fact that vote 2 only allowed those 31K people to vote?  I'm interested to see what kind of "proof" you have of why those 31K folks voted the way they did.

Taken all together just under 25,000 votes were cast for a redhead, green eyed, freckled Shepard while 37,000 votes were cast for a blonde haired, blue eyed Shepard.

[VeR0se]

i liked blonde shepard D:

[SNascimento]

The inferior red-headed shepard won?

[Jayce]

Nozybidaj wrote...

So you personally went and asked all 31,500 people that voted for Blonde shep in vote 1 why they voted the way they did or are you basing this off the fact that vote 2 only allowed those 31K people to vote?  I'm interested to see what kind of "proof" you have of why those 31K folks voted the way they did.

Taken all together just under 25,000 votes were cast for a redhead, green eyed, freckled Shepard while 37,000 votes were cast for a blonde haired, blue eyed Shepard.

I'd kinda figure the answer was implied in the fact that blonde didn't get 31,000 votes this time. Unless you seriously think 26,000 blonde voting facebook users who were following the Mass Effect facebook page suddenly stopped reading their updates?

[Nozybidaj]

Jayce F wrote...

I'd kinda figure the answer was implied in the fact that blonde didn't get 31,000 votes this time. Unless you seriously think 26,000 blonde voting facebook users who were following the Mass Effect facebook page suddenly stopped reading their updates?

No one knows, how many unique voters where there in each vote?  Vote 1 was certainly more publicised, its not a stretch to assume it had more voters.  Maybe those folks saw the landslide victory from vote 1 and assumed it was over and there was no point in keeping an eye on it any more.  Maybe they felt what was the point in voting a second time since their overwhelming victory in vote 1 was discarded by BW simply because a couple folks on BSN decided that all blondes are bimbos.

Vote #2 doesn't prove anything about vote #1.  The only actual solid thing anyone can determine from the 2 votes is raw totals which is pretty obviously in favor of a particular option.

[VeR0se]

SNascimento wrote...

The inferior red-headed shepard won?

i believe so, im a red head so i dont usually see the lure of red heads 

[RynJ]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

I think you used exxageration the wrong way there.  It's like someone saying they don't like a certain type of cookie because its salty and you saying well if you don't like that cookie there's no way you can like any other cookie because they're cookies too.  You're ingoring the fact the person stated it tasted a bit salty and that may have been the reason they didn't like that specific one.

Don't get me wrong:  I do feel the process was unfair to a certain portion of the community and I think I have shown more than enough support to show people were actually marginalized in reality..  However, I can't argue or have my ideas fairly digested by someone who incorrectly fails to acknowledge it's even a possiblity. 

Take your position for example.  At first you started with a very extreme argument that people who felt the process was even slightly unfair, were all whiners who shouldn't be posting, are too passionate about the issue and there is absolutely no unfairness in the process.  All while failing to present a single point why that may be the case.  When eventually challenged on not doing so, you said you didn't have to (but obviously everyone else does right?).

When more support is given and you're further called out on your extremes, you became the victim all of a sudden by being labeled as a "troll," even though some of your posts (and others like it) could have been considered more offensive to others than those accusing you of such. (late edit: typos)

When you're finally presented with a thoughtful post using real numbers from both polls and are faced with the fact that unfairness is at least a viable scenario, you instead say it's only a possiblity and therefore probably didn't happen.  All while your abstract scenario of events remain undefined and are mysteriously exempt from having to be proven to make your point.  Then you come back to the conclusion that because you don't want to acknowledge there's good points being made about process concerns, you returned to your extreme view that everyone voicing a concern/complaint is in fact, a whiner (high pitched crybaby).

If your generalities don't need to be proven or supported strongly, than neither do mine.


More on topic though.  I was thinking this morning of what it would look like to do a similar math excersise based off the assumptions I consider extreme:

-Vast majority who voted against Femshep 5 in poll 1 would do so again in poll 2 (save this one, but you have to start with it)
-A vast majority of Femshep 5 voters wanted a different hair colour
-There was no vote splitting between Femshep 2 and 3 in the second poll
-No other factors had an effect on the second poll

And see if it comes close to the second poll results for Femshep 5.  I think you would find there may be way too many votes against Blonde Femshep compared to reality.  To the point even counting unknowns factors wouldn't even make up for the heavily slanted numbers.

OK I'm a little too tired to try to read that first part.

Sweetheart I never said that everyone was a whiner nor did I say my opinion was the only correct one. I'm not sure why you think I did.  The only thing I said close to that was that some people need to "deal with it" and that I was hearing a lot of what I perceived as sour grapes.  There was never an "everyone's a whiner".

I also never said that there wasn't a possibility that the poll was unfair; there is. I was just saying that there is a possibility for a lot of things and that it wasn't the basis of a good argument. And it isn't.  Unlike you, I don't base my arguments off of possibility, I base them off of facts.

Fact: The majority doesn't want a blonde Shep. The end.

Fact: Blonde Shep is still in the 2nd poll, so that means that her supporters could still vote on her so it was fair. No one was marginalized, people just didn't want to vote for Blonde Shep anymore. The majority still wins, so there's no point in saying that it was "unfair" to the people who wanted Blonde when people were perfectly able to vote for her. It wasn't unfair, blonde just lost.  I don't see anyone being marginalized, just people not voting for the one that won before.

I won't go further, you can go back and read my other posts if you wish where I explain further.  Honestly right now I'm not even trying to argue my point of view, I already did that.  I'm arguing why I don't think yours is valid.

It doesn't matter why the voters voted for other haircolors than blonde, there doesn't need to be a reason. Majority wins in polls. Though its silly to think that everyone who didn't vote for 5 in the first poll won't vote for blonde in the 2nd. That's nothing more than (a little silly) speculation.  You even admit your "statistics" are based off of assumptions. You can argue all you want, but stats based off of assumption will never be anything more than speculation as well, so they mean nothing to me.

I say you treat me like a troll because you make untrue statements about my comments and call me an extremist when I was nothing of the sort. Try actually reading something and understanding it before you make such comments.  I think that excessive complaining when it is not necessary is whining, that's my opinion and it won't change. I have stated multiple times why I think that a lot of these arguments sound like whining and I won't repeat myself. I never personally attacked anyone so don't act like I did. Again you make assumptions based off of no real truth or fact. If anything you're the one making personal attacks.

Basically you're calling me out on "extremes" that don't exist. And it's just you by the way.

I have stated why I have come to my conclusion many times before, you just aren't processing it or didn't want to read my earlier posts (which I get, I wouldn't want to either). If it suits you go back to my other posts and see. Your argument just doesn't hold much water in my opinion sorry to say love!  

For now I'm done and I think I'm gonna peace out. It's been a ball Sugar. (And please don't be one of those people who are like "she's leaving because she knows her argument isn't true blah blah blah." It's been a good debate, don't spoil it.)

Modifié par RynJ, 27 août 2011 - 03:03 .

[RynJ]

Oh and Iove the shirts! I wonder why they're in black and white, but they look really cool

[Balek-Vriege]

RynJ wrote...

Edit: /sniped

You're entitled to stop and I would have said the same (actually already did but, have to say my...farewells), since there's new news we're all interested in.


I read all your posts back to page 73ish and still don't know which posts you actually made your arguments sound and struck my arguments down cold.  Instead, they seemed to go over your head in some cases.

But that doesn't matter, we agree to disagree about the basic points which is what I thought would happen anyways.  I will count you as a lost cause in my book.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 27 août 2011 - 03:02 .

[RynJ]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

RynJ wrote...

Edit: /sniped

You're entitled to stop and I would have said the same (actually already did but, have to say my...farewells), since there's new news we're all interested in.


I read all your posts back to page 73ish and still don't know which posts you actually made your arguments sound and struck my arguments down cold.  Instead, they seemed to go over your head in some cases.

But that doesn't matter, we agree to disagree about the basic points which is what I thought would happen anyways.  I will count you as a lost cause in my book.

I had a feeling you would do that. There goes a perfectly good debate.

My arguments weren't over my head, and I really hope they weren't over yours. They were really quite simple. I think pieces of your arguments were over everyone's heads though (and not in a good way I must say, they probably went over yours too)

Buh bye now! I'm going to go be excited about PAX

Modifié par RynJ, 27 août 2011 - 03:07 .

[Balek-Vriege]

RynJ wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

RynJ wrote...

Edit: /sniped

You're entitled to stop and I would have said the same (actually already did but, have to say my...farewells), since there's new news we're all interested in.


I read all your posts back to page 73ish and still don't know which posts you actually made your arguments sound and struck my arguments down cold.  Instead, they seemed to go over your head in some cases.

But that doesn't matter, we agree to disagree about the basic points which is what I thought would happen anyways.  I will count you as a lost cause in my book.

I had a feeling you would do that. There goes a perfectly good debate.

My arguments weren't over my head, and I really hope they weren't over yours. They were really quite simple. I think pieces of your arguments were over everyone's heads though (and not in a good way I must say)

Buh bye now!

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