252 réponses à ce sujet

[Neminea]

@ Xil
Agreed on that, naturally. I don't think anyone likes that, or I hope not, though there are some sick people out there. I misunderstood what you ment, getting too tired to form anything remotely coherent in English though and I feel like I should give some thought to the points made before replying, I'll get back to it tomorrow, since this discussion keeps poking my interest.

Modifié par Neminea, 27 août 2011 - 01:38 .

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, I will hate them for having their own culture and beliefs, when it involves horrific torture of mages, idiotic sex segregation, and destroying the minds of those who resist too much.

Just like they will hate or pity you for what they percieve as idiotic ideas, a sick society and horrific values.

To me, both stances are as petty.

Well, yes. Our societies are incompatible, regrettably.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, I will hate them for having their own culture and beliefs, when it involves horrific torture of mages, idiotic sex segregation, and destroying the minds of those who resist too much.

Just like they will hate or pity you for what they percieve as idiotic ideas, a sick society and horrific values.

To me, both stances are as petty.

Well, yes. Our societies are incompatible, regrettably.

But hatred is not necessary in the equation. That's what I find petty. And dangerous.

[Xilizhra]

But hatred is not necessary in the equation. That's what I find petty. And dangerous.

Maybe so. I suppose there's no point hating individual qunari... if that term even describes something real.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

But hatred is not necessary in the equation. That's what I find petty. And dangerous.

Maybe so. I suppose there's no point hating individual qunari... if that term even describes something real.

I think there is no point in hating anything, period. It clouds judgement. And is very easy to manipulate. 

[Rifneno]

Neminea wrote...

This is where I or someone else will point out that thats the way they want to live.

Then you or whoever else has no idea what you or they are talking about. They didn't make a conscious and informed decision to join the Qun and be abused. They were brought up in the Qun and had it expertly pounded into their minds that this way is the only way. And if they didn't succumb to the indoctrination (the Arishok's word) then they were declared Tal-Vashoth and killed.

since this is a Qun vs Tevinter thread the mindless slaves may be better then the non mindless ones. At least the mindless ones don't suffer as they do.

That is simply absurd. There's no evidence that the drugged victims are no longer able to process suffering because they have a reduced mental capacity.

Xilizhra wrote...

I'll say exactly the same things about IRL cultures if they're similarly vile.

Ditto. Not every culture is worth preserving. Cannibals, for instance.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'll say exactly the same things about IRL cultures if they're similarly vile.

Ditto. Not every culture is worth preserving. Cannibals, for instance.

And who determines that? You? The majority? Some invisible "natural law"?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 août 2011 - 02:19 .

[Xilizhra]

And who determines that? You? The majority? Some invisible "natural law"?

How can the best outcome for any decision be determined before the decision is made?

[Rifneno]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'll say exactly the same things about IRL cultures if they're similarly vile.

Ditto. Not every culture is worth preserving. Cannibals, for instance.

And who determines that? You? The majority? Some invisible "natural law"?

Ugh.  Don't give me your self-superior spew.  I've had my lifetime fill of it already.  I didn't pass on replying to you because I didn't have anything to add, I passed because I don't want to violate the decorum and probably the rules.  I know that, sadly, they don't have an ignore list... but let's pretend like they do, 'kay?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

And who determines that? You? The majority? Some invisible "natural law"?

How can the best outcome for any decision be determined before the decision is made?

Reason and logic, as much as humanly possible. Perfect prediction is impossible. 
Of course, it depends on what you deem is the "best" outcome.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...
Ugh.  Don't give me your self-superior spew.  I've had my lifetime fill of it already.  I didn't pass on replying to you because I didn't have anything to add, I passed because I don't want to violate the decorum and probably the rules.  I know that, sadly, they don't have an ignore list... but let's pretend like they do, 'kay?

If you feel that you are going to violate decorum and forum rules, then chances are you have nothing useful to add anyways. Thank you  for informing me.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And who determines that? You? The majority? Some invisible "natural law"?

How can the best outcome for any decision be determined before the decision is made?

Reason and logic, as much as humanly possible. Perfect prediction is impossible. 
Of course, it depends on what you deem is the "best" outcome.

Fair enough. Then I'll use my own logic to determine that.

Of course, I have no particular grudge against cannibals, except that it's prone to spreading disease. But if they can protect themselves from that and aren't murdering anyone, I don't really care.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
Fair enough. Then I'll use my own logic to determine that.

Of course, I have no particular grudge against cannibals, except that it's prone to spreading disease. But if they can protect themselves from that and aren't murdering anyone, I don't really care.

Hence I added reason, and not only logic, which is only a tool.

I think anyone who is really rational and wise, would end up being humble when it comes to things like that, as in not masquerade as someone who can determine which culture deserves to live or not. Resorting to self-interest and the interests of the group should be enough to determine which values ought to be embraced and which to be rejected.

It's with that rationale, that I would fight the Qunari were I in Thedas. Not an illusionary sense of moral superiority, that ironically has led to more atrocities than anything else.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 août 2011 - 02:41 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

How do you know the Qunari sex segregation is idiotic? Just wondering. Since it takes at least six (or was it seven?) armed and armored trainned guardsmen, to take down a single unarmored male Qunari soldier, I'd say that their males are certainly competent fighters. Unless their females are just as tough and deadly, I can see the Qunaris' point.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 27 août 2011 - 02:41 .

[Xilizhra]

Hence I added reason, and not only logic, which is only a tool.

I think anyone who is really rational and wise, would end up being humble when it comes to things like that, as in not masquerade as someone who can determine which culture deserves to live or not. Resorting to self-interest and the interests of the group should be enough to determine which values ought to be embraced and which to be rejected.

It's with that rationale, that I would fight the Qunari were I in Thedas. Not an illusionary sense of moral superiority, that ironically has led to more atrocities than anything else.

The interests of the group are my morality, luckily enough.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
The interests of the group are my morality, luckily enough.

Utilitarian?

Valid (and it fits your beliefs that pain and pleasure are the only intrinsic things). Still don't see the point in hatred.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Aren't Qunari only and solely focusing on the group's interrest, and never on the individual's?

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fair enough. Then I'll use my own logic to determine that.

Of course, I have no particular grudge against cannibals, except that it's prone to spreading disease. But if they can protect themselves from that and aren't murdering anyone, I don't really care.

I mainly went with cannibals as an example because it's non-specific and something that's pretty much universally considered horrible. To delve deeper, as you said it leads to problems with disease. Serious, scary diseases too. That mad cow disease scare was as big as it was for a reason (unlike swine flu, in which they only freaked out because of what the virus USED to be rather than what it IS), and there a human version, Kuru, related to human cannibalism. Add to the fact that so many cannibalistic societies were homicidal cannibals rather than necro-cannibals... and the fact that there's not really any decent reason to do it to begin with... and yeah, unless your plane crashed in a frozen wasteland it's not a very defensible practice.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aren't Qunari only and solely focusing on the group's interrest, and never on the individual's?

That indeed depends on how you percieve the collective good. Is it by weakening individuals, or strengthening them? Is it via society or the state?

In my personal perspective, the Qunari emphasis on the collective in lieu of the invidual, has both positive and negative consequences to the same collective. I do not know enough of them to say for sure which outweighs the other.

And I would be interested to see if the Qun has any biological / natural basis, and how non-Kossith Qunari fare under such a system.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The interests of the group are my morality, luckily enough.

Utilitarian?

Valid (and it fits your beliefs that pain and pleasure are the only intrinsic things). Still don't see the point in hatred.

Indeed. As for hatred, it's an involuntary emotional reaction; I don't actually see it as useful.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The interests of the group are my morality, luckily enough.

Utilitarian?

Valid (and it fits your beliefs that pain and pleasure are the only intrinsic things). Still don't see the point in hatred.

Indeed. As for hatred, it's an involuntary emotional reaction; I don't actually see it as useful.

Wouldn't it be wise to supress it at least?

[Xilizhra]

Well, I try. In-game, I do try to help the Arishok as much as possible so he can get the hell out of the city.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I try. In-game, I do try to help the Arishok as much as possible so he can get the hell out of the city.

You don't really have that much of a choice

Does your canon side with Petrice (assuming she is aggro enough)?

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I try. In-game, I do try to help the Arishok as much as possible so he can get the hell out of the city.

You don't really have that much of a choice

Does your canon side with Petrice (assuming she is aggro enough)?

I considered it, but ultimately I decided against it. No matter what, the Arishok isn't leaving until he gets the relic back, and the rabble that Petrice managed to rouse just don't seem effective enough for me to want to cultivate them at the expense of possible peace. Also, I kept having to cheat to get the option in the first place, and the knife-throwing scene seemed out of character.

[KnightofPhoenix]

If you had the choice, would you have sided against the qunari from the start, or taken precautions and help organize something that resembles an army more than a rabble?
Or perhaps you would have used that fear to propel yourself politically and remind people why mages are vital?