252 réponses à ce sujet

[Sons of Horus]

I would love to try both. But I think I would have more fun beating slaves/performing blood magic/dominating demons/ruling as a overlord/and assassinating rivals as the Tevinter Archon. I also get to be head of the black chantry (got a nice ring to it).




I find it amusing though that people think that the Qunari are stagnant, when they have developed the most advanced tech in Thedas. The Qun would be more stable for Thedas. But I would go with Tevinter and become Tevinter Archon because I want to rule.

Modifié par Sons of Horus, 18 août 2011 - 09:01 .

[Foolsfolly]

I find it amusing though that people think that the Qunari are stagnant, when they have developed the most advanced tech in Thedas. The Qun would be more stable for Thedas. But I would go with Tevinter and become Tevinter Archon because I want to rule.

There's an argument for the stagnating society thing though. So I won't completely blow off that opinion. But I do agree with this. The Qunari are pragmatist and their ideology seems to basically be "Order and Utopia at All Costs."

That's fundamentally flawed but it's appealing to see in fiction, and even role-play a character who believes in it. It's also a nice stand out from the "Personal Power at All Costs" Tevinter Magisters.

It's fun pitting those two groups together. I really hope DA3 takes place in Tevinter for these reasons instead of the obvious Orlais. The Chantry just isn't as interesting as these two.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Even Saarebas kept a secret blood magic talisman, so he wasn't a devout follower of the Qun entirely. He was definitely a follower, but not in all aspects.

We don't know what the Qunari's rules on magic is. It's entirely possible that they don't view blood magic as any worse than other forms of magic.

Sons of Horus wrote...

I find it amusing though that people think that the Qunari are stagnant, when they have developed the most advanced tech in Thedas. The Qun would be more stable for Thedas. But I would go with Tevinter and become Tevinter Archon because I want to rule.

They have superior warfare technology in a primitive gunpowder and various chemical weapons. That has nothing to do with their society's ability to advance. Tevinter is probably the most powerful single nation in Thedas in terms of ability to kick ass but it also has the worst society (not counting Qunari in either one).

The reason people say the Qunari stagnate isn't that they'll never invent microwave ovens. It's that they think their society's structure is perfect and they spent years brainwashing the next generation of the same thing. There's a reason they always babble on about the "certainty" of the Qun. And if you disagree... DIE, TAL-VASHOTH! So yeah, they aren't about to reform any flaws in their society. That doesn't mean they aren't going to continue scientific research.

[Xilizhra]

We don't know what the Qunari's rules on magic is. It's entirely possible that they don't view blood magic as any worse than other forms of magic.

This seems unlikely. Considering that blood magic is both very efficient at opening the Veil (thus allowing for easier transit for demons) and controls minds (which could easily be seen as trying to usurp the power of the entire Qun for one individual), I doubt the qunari position on it is much different from the Chantry's.

Tevinter is probably the most powerful single nation in Thedas in terms of ability to kick ass but it also has the worst society (not counting Qunari in either one).

I'm not completely certain. Orlais, if not just as bad, is almost as bad. The main difference is that Tevinter doesn't bother hiding anything it does, whereas Orlais endeavors to keep up a facade of respectability. However, they're a slave state in de facto terms, and in modern times are much more conquest-hungry than Tevinter

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

This seems unlikely. Considering that blood magic is both very efficient at opening the Veil (thus allowing for easier transit for demons) and controls minds (which could easily be seen as trying to usurp the power of the entire Qun for one individual), I doubt the qunari position on it is much different from the Chantry's.

Like I said, we don't know much of anything about the Qunari's views on magic. We also don't know what controls that their Arvaard has over them. It's certainly not impossible that it restricts them from using mind control spells and such. As for the dangers of blood magic, don't forget that the Qunari have spent hundreds of years at war with the most powerful blood mages in existence. If it was as easy to topple the Qun as blood controlling a few people, it'd have happened long ago.

I'm not completely certain. Orlais, if not just as bad, is almost as bad. The main difference is that Tevinter doesn't bother hiding anything it does, whereas Orlais endeavors to keep up a facade of respectability. However, they're a slave state in de facto terms, and in modern times are much more conquest-hungry than Tevinter

I'm certainly not going to argue that. Honestly, I just didn't want to turn this into another mage debate since the Chantry apologists will surely jump to defend the Orlesian archrapists if anyone said Tevinter wasn't 10 billion times more ebil than everything else. Because remember, TEH BLUD MAGIK!

[Xilizhra]

As for the dangers of blood magic, don't forget that the Qunari have spent hundreds of years at war with the most powerful blood mages in existence. If it was as easy to topple the Qun as blood controlling a few people, it'd have happened long ago.

True; I think that every qunari is supposed to know the Qun equally well, and that they're free to disobey superiors who aren't following it.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd side with the Qunari who went with Sten as he changed the Qunari society.

Seriously, he said in a sad tone (with the facial expressions to match it) that he didn't want to be alive when the Antaam invaded Thedas.

Which proves what, aside from the fact the hornheads had no intention of keeping the treaty?

Saying Sten will change the oxmen makes even less sense than the theory going around a little while back that Feynriel will make Tevinter all sweet and cuddly.

Of course he won't change all of the Qunari society. But as I said before:

There's one fatal flaw in Qunari society: they assume that everyone who is living in their society believes in the Qun entirely. There's no way for them to actually know if Person A is just pretending to believe so he doesn't get killed or actually does believe.

Even Saarebas kept a secret blood magic talisman, so he wasn't a devout follower of the Qun entirely. He was definitely a follower, but not in all aspects.

The Warden is able to enlighten the enlightener, if you will. He's able to tell him how oppressive Qunari society is as it stands, that the Tal-Vashoth want things to change, that children should have fun in their lifetimes, etc.

Not everyone is a devout follower and follows the Qun to the tee. Those that don't will most likely defect with Sten and form a new type of Qunari society. Perhaps by other Qunari they'd be considered Tal-Vashoth, but they might not consider themselves as such.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This seems unlikely. Considering that blood magic is both very efficient at opening the Veil (thus allowing for easier transit for demons) and controls minds (which could easily be seen as trying to usurp the power of the entire Qun for one individual), I doubt the qunari position on it is much different from the Chantry's.

Like I said, we don't know much of anything about the Qunari's views on magic. We also don't know what controls that their Arvaard has over them. It's certainly not impossible that it restricts them from using mind control spells and such. As for the dangers of blood magic, don't forget that the Qunari have spent hundreds of years at war with the most powerful blood mages in existence. If it was as easy to topple the Qun as blood controlling a few people, it'd have happened long ago.

Take this secret thing, Basvaarad. --- Saarebas


If they viewed blood magic as a good thing, I doubt he would've called it a secret thing. And then there's the codex:

A simple shape on a leather cord. The uneven polish is not a failure of workmanship; rather the result of exacting and repeated study by powerful hands.

Black glimmers curl just beneath a surface that should be solid, and there are glimpses of a core that seems to be carved from a piece of horn. Gaze for more than a moment and it seems to stir something in an uncommonly dark corner of the mind, coaxing out a familiar, primal emotion: want. It is impossible to say whether Saarebas intended this as reinforcement or restriction. At the moment, it simply is. This secret thing was never meant for the eyes of another.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 août 2011 - 12:44 .

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Warden is able to enlighten the enlightener, if you will. He's able to tell him how oppressive Qunari society is as it stands, that the Tal-Vashoth want things to change, that children should have fun in their lifetimes, etc.

Not everyone is a devout follower and follows the Qun to the tee. Those that don't will most likely defect with Sten and form a new type of Qunari society. Perhaps by other Qunari they'd be considered Tal-Vashoth, but they might not consider themselves as such.

No he's not. Sten never says he's even reconsidering things like people being forced into a specific job dependent on gender or that freedom isn't evil. He gains a measure of respect for the Warden's badassery. That's all. If, and only if the Warden sacrifices himself at the archdemon then when Sten gets back to Par Vollen and they ask if he met... I can't remember how they put it, anyone significant or respectworthy? Something like that. Sten will say one. One. A guy that united three races and personally slew a tainted god, giving his own life in the process.

Sten is a self-superior, worthless piece of ****. Just like the rest of the qunari.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Warden is able to enlighten the enlightener, if you will. He's able to tell him how oppressive Qunari society is as it stands, that the Tal-Vashoth want things to change, that children should have fun in their lifetimes, etc.

Not everyone is a devout follower and follows the Qun to the tee. Those that don't will most likely defect with Sten and form a new type of Qunari society. Perhaps by other Qunari they'd be considered Tal-Vashoth, but they might not consider themselves as such.

No he's not. Sten never says he's even reconsidering things like people being forced into a specific job dependent on gender or that freedom isn't evil. He gains a measure of respect for the Warden's badassery. That's all. If, and only if the Warden sacrifices himself at the archdemon then when Sten gets back to Par Vollen and they ask if he met... I can't remember how they put it, anyone significant or respectworthy? Something like that. Sten will say one. One. A guy that united three races and personally slew a tainted god, giving his own life in the process.

Sten is a self-superior, worthless piece of ****. Just like the rest of the qunari.

Wrong. If you do the DR and talk to Sten and pick the appropriate choices he says "My views have changed... a little."

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wrong. If you do the DR and talk to Sten and pick the appropriate choices he says "My views have changed... a little."

For all we know, he was talking about Par Vollen needing to start making cookies. What we do know is "my views have changed a little but I'm not going to elaborate" is a biiiiig leap to "my society was wrong on fundamental issues" and that he'll go back, avoid re-brainwashing camp, become the new Arishok, and change their society even though the Arishok is also a slave to the writings of a dead man. I think if I'm going to hope someone will change a society, it'll be someone that doesn't think "my sword is gone?! I must beat children to death!"

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wrong. If you do the DR and talk to Sten and pick the appropriate choices he says "My views have changed... a little."

For all we know, he was talking about Par Vollen needing to start making cookies. What we do know is "my views have changed a little but I'm not going to elaborate" is a biiiiig leap to "my society was wrong on fundamental issues" and that he'll go back, avoid re-brainwashing camp, become the new Arishok, and change their society even though the Arishok is also a slave to the writings of a dead man. I think if I'm going to hope someone will change a society, it'll be someone that doesn't think "my sword is gone?! I must beat children to death!"

Considering he makes it explicitly clear when you talk to him about cookies that Qunari need cookies, I doubt he meant cookies at the end.

We know promotions occur with Qunari society and that a Sten is a commander. Our Sten was given the role of protecting the innocent, and when he murdered the farmhold family he considered it a horrendous act that he did. See here:

Mary Kirby wrote...

And considering his job is protecting non-combatants (as he tells you, when he talks about the Tal-vashoth attacks in Seheron) he personally considers it a particularly heinous crime to harm unarmed civilians. It is safe to say that he never forgives himself for killing the farmers

We know hornless Kossith are meant for great things in Qunari society, and that the Black Emporium mentions Sten. With the Arishok either dying or failing, I think it's incredibly likely that Sten will be promoted to Arishok for learning about the Blight (either through witnessing it or learning through texts if you didn't recruit him)

[Reznore57]

Well The Qunari values human life , the Imperium don't .I could not follow the qun ,but killing Qunari with evil mages , i would feel dirty.Like siding with Sister Petrice ...
I guess i would fight the Imperium with The Qunari , then fight the Qunari ,pretty much like in DA2.
I mean choosing between crazy zealots and their "deny or die" and crazy vicious magister "let's butcher everyone to be powerful mouhhaha" ...I end up dead in both scenario.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

We know hornless Kossith are meant for great things in Qunari society, and that the Black Emporium mentions Sten. With the Arishok either dying or failing, I think it's incredibly likely that Sten will be promoted to Arishok for learning about the Blight (either through witnessing it or learning through texts if you didn't recruit him)

No, we know a) the superstitious idiots think a birth defect means a special role, a book in the Black Emporium that may well be a joke about the Internet mentions a hornless Qunari who may or may not be the Sten we meet in DAO in the same breath that it says the codex writer's wife is cheating on him. The part about it being "incredibly likely" that a guy who is left for dead in a cage in a town about to be swallowed by darkspawn, who wants to be left for death, will survive, find his sword, get back to his homeland, and be promoted to the highest position in the military is... just plain untrue.

Reznore57 wrote...

Well The Qunari values human life

You shouldn't go to the spoilers form before finishing Act II. 

[Xilizhra]

It can be argued that the Qun values human life more than the Chantry values, say, elven life. Or at least most of Thedas' human societies, at any rate.

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

Well The Qunari values human life

You shouldn't go to the spoilers form before finishing Act II. 

They value human life as highly as kossith life. It depends on their way of life, not race.

[blothulfur]

The only wisdom is in submitting to the Qun, mages whether of Tevinter or elsewhere are spoiled whiny stupid children who cry out for freedom and responsibility when they haven't yet proven themselves worthy to hold a rattle let alone the reins of their own destiny. All must be leashed and put to service under the Qun (as we have done in Par Vollen where even beasts have come to serve the Qun) until a cure is found for their foul curse and the bonds they hold to the fade are severed or the fade itself is conquered for the greater good.

Tevinter is an inconsequential boil on the arse of Thedas, one we shall soon lance and let the blood flow until the wound has cleaned itself.

Ataash qunari.

[KenKenpachi]

Ataash Qunari! ALL PRAISE THE QUN.

Or know the pain of Death.

Shok ebasit hissra. Meraad astaarit, meraad itwasit, aban aqun. Maraas shokra. Anaan esaam Qun,

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 18 août 2011 - 03:54 .

[Xilizhra]

blothulfur wrote...

The only wisdom is in submitting to the Qun, mages whether of Tevinter or elsewhere are spoiled whiny stupid children who cry out for freedom and responsibility when they haven't yet proven themselves worthy to hold a rattle let alone the reins of their own destiny. All must be leashed and put to service under the Qun (as we have done in Par Vollen where even beasts have come to serve the Qun) until a cure is found for their foul curse and the bonds they hold to the fade are severed or the fade itself is conquered for the greater good.

Tevinter is an inconsequential boil on the arse of Thedas, one we shall soon lance and let the blood flow until the wound has cleaned itself.

Ataash qunari.

And yet you've never truly defeated the Imperium. Nor will you ever. The true power of magic remains forever outside your grasp, and that, above all else, is why the Qun is a temporary and doomed anomaly. Magic is eternal.

Na via lerno victoria.

[Neminea]

This whole discussion made me wonder why most of us seem to prefer Tevinter over the Qun, and I can't help but wonder if it has something to do with the fact that for as far as I can tell most of us come from western culture countries. In western culture, freedom is the be all and end all, and taking away freedom (specially that of choice) is about the worst thing someone can possibly do.
Now Tevinter takes freedom from some of it populace, while the Qun seems to take it away from everyone. Ergo, the Qun is "worse" than Tevinter.
While I am as western in terms of freedoms as it comes, I do have an interest in cultures (fictional and non-fictional) where freedom is not one of the highest priorities. Examples of this are the Borg, or the duty and honor before freedom thing that you see in the Brothers of the Nights Watch (game of thrones) or even the Orcs in Warcraft. I'm only naming fictional ones here since I don't want to be stepping on anyones toes.
I don't think those attitudes are bad or result in cultural stagnation persé, and even if it does I still can't say with certainty that it would be a bad thing. Are our own freedom cultures so fluid, or do we also keep to traditions that when looked at it as objectively as possible might not make much sense anymore either?
I don't have the answer, don't get me wrong. I just don't think that the Qun would be better or worse than Tevinter. For me, it would be an impossible choice to make. I like my freedoms, but the Qunari seem pretty content. Would I really want to destroy them all just because they think different, or worse, would I "force" them into being free... the forcing part kinda defeats the whole freedom part.

[Torax]

Neither the Qunari or Tevinter have enough forces to truly conquer all of Thedas. Only the Chantry could attempt to motivate full nations like that via the Chant's religious dogma. At the same time even the Chantry couldn't openly take over other countries because it would be seen as Orlais trying to rule over all. No nation is truly that strong that has been shown to us. Also the Qunari and Tevinter only battle each other over a neighboring territory. While Fenris thinks the Qunari are biding their time to strike at Tevinter that is just his opinion or theory and not necessarily true. Tevinter doesn't have the strength to strike against other nations. This is why they only war with the Qunari over an Island territory that the Qunari invaded in the Imperiums regions.

It's not like any nation is truly united in an of it'self. For example if the Chantry wanted to invade a region? It could find it'self in a civil war with the free marches, ferelden and how many other nations. They could even find themselves in battle in the Anderfels. The Qunari couldn't wage war with every region at once even with their explosives. That could help in a sea battle but on land it would be much harder. Also Qunari are fighting a more crippled version of Tevinter. Legends say that the Qunari fought all of Thedas to a stand still. That doesn't necessarily mean they could even attempt to today.

[miraclemight]

I never thought I'd say this, but if I had to choose, I'd side with the Tevinter Imperium.

Saying that Qunari are pretty content is like saying those who've decided to serve the Reapers through indoctrination are content. Now are they really?

[Neminea]

I just find it a bit.. I'm sorry I can't say this any other way.. biased to take it as a given that they aren't just because most of us probably wouldn't be.
Different cultures, different priorities. And happiness seems to have a different meaning in every language. *shrugs* I'm just trying to point out that upbringing does colour most peoples view on things, and that our opinion on the Qun is -maybe- a result of that.

[Torax]

miraclemight wrote...

I never thought I'd say this, but if I had to choose, I'd side with the Tevinter Imperium.

Saying that Qunari are pretty content is like saying those who've decided to serve the Reapers through indoctrination are content. Now are they really?

To be fair. In the Qun, all are equal. Rations are shared. No one is put before another. Yes the mages are leashed and controlled closer to an animal that while is allowed to think it cannot speak. It's the "Deny and die" thing that would run the line of thinking of it as a slavery. But every other nation has a form of slavery or others thought inferior, abused and or second class citizens. This is not the case to the Qunari in that sense. Everyone is given what they need as long as they are fulfilling a duty of the Qun. Some of those are Soldiers, merchants and so on. There are likely bakers and chef type duties in the Qun, by that mindset the only difference is in other nations the baker cooks for money. A Qunari Baker would sell his goods to outsiders possibly and then just use all the money from it to cook more and none for profit. All within his Qun would get the goods for free like giving your family food for free. Is this some how more evil? Only the Saarebas is where someone is in our Western mindset truly slavery. "Deny and die" is the only other harsh point. Otherwise it's just people gladly serving the collective good. Something Western Civilizations have long since forgotten.

[Herr Uhl]

Torax wrote...

Neither the Qunari or Tevinter have enough forces to truly conquer all of Thedas. Only the Chantry could attempt to motivate full nations like that via the Chant's religious dogma. At the same time even the Chantry couldn't openly take over other countries because it would be seen as Orlais trying to rule over all. No nation is truly that strong that has been shown to us. Also the Qunari and Tevinter only battle each other over a neighboring territory. While Fenris thinks the Qunari are biding their time to strike at Tevinter that is just his opinion or theory and not necessarily true. Tevinter doesn't have the strength to strike against other nations. This is why they only war with the Qunari over an Island territory that the Qunari invaded in the Imperiums regions.

It's not like any nation is truly united in an of it'self. For example if the Chantry wanted to invade a region? It could find it'self in a civil war with the free marches, ferelden and how many other nations. They could even find themselves in battle in the Anderfels. The Qunari couldn't wage war with every region at once even with their explosives. That could help in a sea battle but on land it would be much harder. Also Qunari are fighting a more crippled version of Tevinter. Legends say that the Qunari fought all of Thedas to a stand still. That doesn't necessarily mean they could even attempt to today.

The chantry tried several exalted marches against Tevinter following their dissent from the chantry. That didn't work. They also needed the help of Tevinter in order to drive the Qunari away at all.

I still think it is a stalemate too, but I think you're overestimating the chantry a bit, unless either of the factions is riddled by civil war (the Qunari are thankful to Anders).