252 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

To be fair. In the Qun, all are equal. Rations are shared. No one is put before another. Yes the mages are leashed and controlled closer to an animal that while is allowed to think it cannot speak. It's the "Deny and die" thing that would run the line of thinking of it as a slavery. But every other nation has a form of slavery or others thought inferior, abused and or second class citizens. This is not the case to the Qunari in that sense. Everyone is given what they need as long as they are fulfilling a duty of the Qun. Some of those are Soldiers, merchants and so on. There are likely bakers and chef type duties in the Qun, by that mindset the only difference is in other nations the baker cooks for money. A Qunari Baker would sell his goods to outsiders possibly and then just use all the money from it to cook more and none for profit. All within his Qun would get the goods for free like giving your family food for free. Is this some how more evil? Only the Saarebas is where someone is in our Western mindset truly slavery. "Deny and die" is the only other harsh point. Otherwise it's just people gladly serving the collective good. Something Western Civilizations have long since forgotten.

I don't actually disagree with the Qun except on three things. The first is the Saarebas thing, which goes beyond anything of what Thedas has done to the extent that I find it intolerable. The second is their hunger for conquest, and the third is the inexplicable sexism. And finally, as sort of a fourth meta-reason, none seem to accept the idea that moving beyond any of this is a good idea.

[blothulfur]

Only under the Qun is there freedom and victory, all the nations of Thedas gathered in concourse could not destroy us or even regain all they had lost for we are armed and armoured with the wisdom of Koslun and unlike the backwards bas we search for answers and betterment so that we have only become stronger in the intervening years.

The distant thunder is not the tempest but the roar of our cannon and the iron shod feet of the antaam marching ever onwards to spread righteous enlightenment to the ignorant and unwilling alike.

[Neminea]

Torax wrote...

miraclemight wrote...

I never thought I'd say this, but if I had to choose, I'd side with the Tevinter Imperium.

Saying that Qunari are pretty content is like saying those who've decided to serve the Reapers through indoctrination are content. Now are they really?

To be fair. In the Qun, all are equal. Rations are shared. No one is put before another. Yes the mages are leashed and controlled closer to an animal that while is allowed to think it cannot speak. It's the "Deny and die" thing that would run the line of thinking of it as a slavery. But every other nation has a form of slavery or others thought inferior, abused and or second class citizens. This is not the case to the Qunari in that sense. Everyone is given what they need as long as they are fulfilling a duty of the Qun. Some of those are Soldiers, merchants and so on. There are likely bakers and chef type duties in the Qun, by that mindset the only difference is in other nations the baker cooks for money. A Qunari Baker would sell his goods to outsiders possibly and then just use all the money from it to cook more and none for profit. All within his Qun would get the goods for free like giving your family food for free. Is this some how more evil? Only the Saarebas is where someone is in our Western mindset truly slavery. "Deny and die" is the only other harsh point. Otherwise it's just people gladly serving the collective good. Something Western Civilizations have long since forgotten.

I didn't want to put it so strongly and I don't say that I agree but that was kinda what I ment. Just because we don't do it or want it doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either.

[Northern Sun]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

Well The Qunari values human life

You shouldn't go to the spoilers form before finishing Act II. 

They value human life as highly as kossith life. It depends on their way of life, not race.

They value human life as a tool though, not in any spiritual or moral sense. I, for one, would rather die than spend the rest of my life as the equivilent of a tranquil laboring in a concentration camp.

[Xilizhra]

blothulfur wrote...

Only under the Qun is there freedom and victory, all the nations of Thedas gathered in concourse could not destroy us or even regain all they had lost for we are armed and armoured with the wisdom of Koslun and unlike the backwards bas we search for answers and betterment so that we have only become stronger in the intervening years.

The distant thunder is not the tempest but the roar of our cannon and the iron shod feet of the antaam marching ever onwards to spread righteous enlightenment to the ignorant and unwilling alike.

Are the pupilless eyes a side effect of the qamek?

[Herr Uhl]

Northern Sun wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

They value human life as highly as kossith life. It depends on their way of life, not race.

They value human life as a tool though, not in any spiritual or moral sense. I, for one, would rather die than spend the rest of my life as the equivilent of a tranquil laboring in a concentration camp.

They value life, they're not like sparta where you'd be kicked off of a cliff if you're a cripple. They take care of any people as long as they serve the Qun the best they can. An elderly person would serve better killed as they're a drain on resources if they're as crass as you propose.

Edit: Yes, they may see you as a tool, but even a defect tool has a purpose. You can't help that you were born the way you are (this is an odd stance to take, considering the lenghts they go to with mages).

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 18 août 2011 - 04:41 .

[blothulfur]

We see more keenly than the eagele on high for the enlighenment of the Qun grants us deeper vision, qamek is a tool used to punish the guilty so that they might yet serve the greater good rather than barbarically and wastefully end their lives as the backwards feudal slave empires of Thedas would.

Modifié par blothulfur, 18 août 2011 - 04:36 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I get the impression that if the Qunari were to attack the rest of the Thedas again, the Tevinter Imperium would not only be the first to fall but the rest of the human nations would be able to put up more resistance. To be honest I got the impression that Tevinter was declining to the extent that they are generally weaker than the other human nations, at least in the ability to project their might beyond their borders. The fact that they are embroiled in a war with the Qunari probably doesn't help matters either. Sten and Fenris seems to imply that the Qunari aren't truly dedicated to conquering the imperium entirely yet. You could say that neither of those two are reliably unbiased on the topic but I have a hard time believing that the same people who once threatened almost all of Thedas are now held in check solely by an increasingly decrepit Tevinter. Didn't somewhere in the game say that what provoked the Qunari to agree to peace was not but the loss of their soldiers or new territory slaughter of their human converts?

Also, I have to suspect that Sten being the new Arishok is highly remote. I thought being a "Sten" was the equivalent of a sergeant? I would imagine many Qunari would be higher in the line of succession for being Qunari Commander-in-Chief, especially since many people just left him to die in Lothering. Even if he were, I also doubt he would fundamentally alter Qunari society. He says more than once, including at the end he still expects the Qunari to invade the rest of Thedas.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

And yet you've never truly defeated the Imperium. Nor will you ever. The true power of magic remains forever outside your grasp, and that, above all else, is why the Qun is a temporary and doomed anomaly. Magic is eternal.

Na via lerno victoria.

*wipes away a tear*  It's... so beautiful...

Neminea wrote...

I don't have the answer, don't get me wrong. I just don't think that the Qun would be better or worse than Tevinter. For me, it would be an impossible choice to make. I like my freedoms, but the Qunari seem pretty content. Would I really want to destroy them all just because they think different, or worse, would I "force" them into being free... the forcing part kinda defeats the whole freedom part.

You don't destroy the Qunari because they think differently, you destroy the Qunari because they want to destroy all other cultures. They are the ones destroying others for thinking differently.

Torax wrote...

Neither the Qunari or Tevinter have enough forces to truly conquer all of Thedas.

Almost certainly true. But that wasn't the question posed to us here. The hypothetical scenario has the Qunari at full force, presumably meaning the full force of where ever they came from along with the Par Vollen settlement. The hypothetical scenario poses the question of what horrific atrocities you'd be willing to commit to stop the Qunari from forcibly converting Thedas.

miraclemight wrote...

I never thought I'd say this, but if I had to choose, I'd side with the Tevinter Imperium.

Saying that Qunari are pretty content is like saying those who've decided to serve the Reapers through indoctrination are content. Now are they really?

Exactly. A very apt analogy. It's well documented in the codexes and a few obscure dialogues that the Qunari basically brainwash their victims, conquered peoples who refuse to convert the worst of all. Which is exactly why I don't hesitate to say that it's worth any price to prevent the malignancy of the Qun from infecting all of Thedas. It dooms not just the people here and now, but countless future generations. Every nation that signed the Llomerryn treaty was a fool. They should have taken care of the Qun while they had the chance. There can be no permanent peace with the Qun and any free peoples.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

We know hornless Kossith are meant for great things in Qunari society, and that the Black Emporium mentions Sten. With the Arishok either dying or failing, I think it's incredibly likely that Sten will be promoted to Arishok for learning about the Blight (either through witnessing it or learning through texts if you didn't recruit him)

No, we know a) the superstitious idiots think a birth defect means a special role, a book in the Black Emporium that may well be a joke about the Internet mentions a hornless Qunari who may or may not be the Sten we meet in DAO in the same breath that it says the codex writer's wife is cheating on him. The part about it being "incredibly likely" that a guy who is left for dead in a cage in a town about to be swallowed by darkspawn, who wants to be left for death, will survive, find his sword, get back to his homeland, and be promoted to the highest position in the military is... just plain untrue.

It isn't a birth defect.


“Not all qunari have horns,” says Dragon Age lead writer David Gaider. “Some are born without them, but it has never been considered a defect. Instead the mark is considered special, indicating one who is clearly meant for a special role in their society—as a Ben-Hassrath who enforces religious law or as an envoy to other races. It is also not uncommon for qunari who abandon their beliefs to remove their own horns, for reasons not yet clear.”

http://www.gameinfor...ri-evolved.aspx

I'd hardly call a "once in a blue moon" thing a defect. That you may call it one doesn't actually make it one.

It talks not just about a hornless Qunari, but one with braided hair. And we've only met one hornless Kossith that was among the "People of the Qun" (Qunari) and lived. That's Sten. Any other hornless Kossith we met with braided hair were Tal-Vashoth, or in the case of Sten's companions were killed.

It also says "the envoy lied honestly". Sten was sent as an envoy from his position in the Beresaad for the Qunari to observe the Blight and report back on what it is.

Now, how is it untrue?


EDIT: Well... I don't consider it a defect in that defect has a negative meaning to me. Physical anomaly I'd call it, as saying defect sounds like a person is calling them damaged.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 août 2011 - 04:51 .

[Neminea]

In this scenario, the Qunari wouldn't want to destroy the whole world, they are at war with Tevinter and I see no evidence in game or on the wiki as to who's "fault" that really is. What you call brainwashing, they would call converting. The chantry does that too, so does every other religion.
Also, brainwashing doesn't mean fake happiness. If it did, then sects wouldn't be a problem. One could also say we are all brainwashed to think that freedom is more important then you know, working for the good of all, honour, duty etc etc etc.
As I said before, I don't agree or disagree, I am just trying to get some out of the box and comfort zone of our own western mindset discussion going.
Just because they are different, doesn't mean they are bad.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Now, how is it untrue?

The part where you said "it's incredibly likely that Sten will become the new Arishok." It's not even likely, let alone incredibly likely.

Neminea wrote...

In this scenario, the Qunari wouldn't want to destroy the whole world, they are at war with Tevinter and I see no evidence in game or on the wiki as to who's "fault" that really is. What you call brainwashing, they would call converting. The chantry does that too, so does every other religion.

No they don't.


When the famous Orlesian chevalier, Ser Michel Lafaille, rode into the city after finally defeating the Qunari defenders, he wrote, "Kirkwall is full of people with empty eyes that had all independent thought driven from them."
-----
They divided children from their families and sent adults to ‘learning camps’ for indoctrination in their religious philosophies. Those who refused to obey were forced into indentured servitude or sent to mines or construction camps to labor… often until they perished of sheer exhaustion or starvation.
-----
Fenris: The Qunari waste nothing. They would reeducate you into a loyal follower of the Qun.
Isabela: Pfft. Could I refuse?
Fenris: There's always qamek, which turns you into a mindless laborer. Like I said, they waste nothing.
Isabela: Oh.
Fenris: If you wish to thank Hawke, he's/she's standing right there.


The cancer of the Qunari mindrapes their victims with drugs. That's more than a little different from standard religious propaganda.

[Sons of Horus]

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't actually disagree with the Qun except on three things. The first is the Saarebas thing, which goes beyond anything of what Thedas has done to the extent that I find it intolerable. The second is their hunger for conquest, and the third is the inexplicable sexism. And finally, as sort of a fourth meta-reason, none seem to accept the idea that moving beyond any of this is a good idea.

1st point On "Saarebas" they are not mistreated by the Arvaarad like the templar do to mages, they are contained, not abused. An Arvaarad is strict and will do a lot to protect others from his charge but will never abuse a charge for his own pleasure.

2nd point All nations hunger for conquest, Ferelden had king Cailan who wanted to be an emperor, tevinter mages wish to rule Thedas, Empress Celene I wishes to usurp Ferelden as do some Orlesian nobles. Hunger for conquest is hardly a sole Qunari trait.

3rd point Inexplicable sexism ? Qun is based on who is good for what role in society, but all are respected for whatever they do, like a female priest or a male solider or even a labourer. Sten from origins respects artists for their ability, but would never diminish that role if it was predominantly female.

4th point the viewpoint you wish the Qunari to have is what they came from, the Qun works better for their society rather than any in Thedas. Besides even if the Qun was to be altered it wouldn't come from the military wing, they don't have any influnce in that area, the priesthood would.

Modifié par Sons of Horus, 18 août 2011 - 05:31 .

[Everwarden]

Given those two choices? I'd go to Tevinter in a heartbeat. They're not a good society, but at least they aren't the borg.

[Neminea]

Rifneno wrote...

Neminea wrote...

In this scenario, the Qunari wouldn't want to destroy the whole world, they are at war with Tevinter and I see no evidence in game or on the wiki as to who's "fault" that really is. What you call brainwashing, they would call converting. The chantry does that too, so does every other religion.

No they don't.


When the famous Orlesian chevalier, Ser Michel Lafaille, rode into the city after finally defeating the Qunari defenders, he wrote, "Kirkwall is full of people with empty eyes that had all independent thought driven from them."
-----
They divided children from their families and sent adults to ‘learning camps’ for indoctrination in their religious philosophies. Those who refused to obey were forced into indentured servitude or sent to mines or construction camps to labor… often until they perished of sheer exhaustion or starvation.
-----
Fenris: The Qunari waste nothing. They would reeducate you into a loyal follower of the Qun.
Isabela: Pfft. Could I refuse?
Fenris: There's always qamek, which turns you into a mindless laborer. Like I said, they waste nothing.
Isabela: Oh.
Fenris: If you wish to thank Hawke, he's/she's standing right there.


The cancer of the Qunari mindrapes their victims with drugs. That's more than a little different from standard religious propaganda.

And the opinions of Fenris and a Orlesian Chevalier couldn't possibly be biased, and should be treated as the absolute truth, with no other side of the story.
Also, what Fenris says on qamek would be valid for some of the populace (and don't get me started on what tevinter does to it's slaves) but that still doesn't mean that those who did convert without the stuff aren't completely happy with their decision.

Templars get controlled by the chantry by making them addicted to lyrium... No one else uses drugs to keep the followers in check huh?

Modifié par Neminea, 18 août 2011 - 05:42 .

[Xilizhra]

1st point On "Saarebas" they are not mistreated by the Arvaarad like the templar do to mages, they are contained, not abused. An Arvaarad is strict and will do a lot to protect others from his charge but will never abuse a charge for his own pleasure.

I'll concede that qunari don't do rape or Tranquility, but I'm certain they only don't do the latter because they don't know how. Considering that qunari mages don't even have the barest pretense of any kind of life, up to the point of being unable to speak, their life is rather worse than that of most Circle mages, so far as I can tell.

2nd point All nations hunger for conquest, Ferelden had king Cailan who wanted to be an emperor, tevinter mages wish to rule Thedas, Empress Celene I wishes to usurp Ferelden as do some Orlesian nobles. Hunger for conquest is hardly a sole Qunari trait.

True, but none of them are actually in the process of trying to conquer the world.

3rd point Inexplicable sexism ? Qun is based on who is good for what role in society, but all are respected for whatever they do, like a female priest or a male solider or even a labourer. Sten from origins respects artists for their ability, but would never diminish that role if it was predominantly female.

Because apparently women can't be soldiers and men can't be priests regardless of what their aptitude is. Qunari "practicality" falls flat there (the other biggest area where it does is that stupid rule about tools holding the soul).

4th point the viewpoint you wish the Qunari to have is what they came from, the Qun works better for their society rather than any in Thedas. Besides even if the Qun was to be altered it wouldn't come from the military wing, they don't have any influnce in that area, the priesthood would.

Have they tried anything that isn't the Qun?

[Herr Uhl]

Sons of Horus wrote...

1st point On "Saarebas" they are not mistreated by the Arvaarad like the templar do to mages, they are contained, not abused. An Arvaarad is strict and will do a lot to protect others from his charge but will never abuse a charge for his own pleasure.

They're kept on leashes and their lips are sown together as not to speak. They're kept in cages.

The guards may not take pleasure in it, but the very system is abusive in and of itself.

3rd point Inexplicable sexism ? Qun is based on who is good for what role in society, but all are respected for whatever they do, like a female priest or a male solider or even a labourer. Sten from origins respects artists for their ability, but would never diminish that role if it was predominantly female.

Their society is very sexist. Not in that any of the sexes are being opressed (any more than the other) or being thought of as better, but your role in life is heavily limited by your sex. Edit: Bad wording, they're thought of as better for a certain role, not as worth more.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 18 août 2011 - 05:47 .

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'll concede that qunari don't do rape or Tranquility, but I'm certain they only don't do the latter because they don't know how. Considering that qunari mages don't even have the barest pretense of any kind of life, up to the point of being unable to speak, their life is rather worse than that of most Circle mages, so far as I can tell.

I doubt they would.

Mary Kirby wrote...

The Qunari view saarebas as if they were poisonous snakes. They keep them around: You need a snake's venom to make antivenom, and you need mages to fight magic. But they never believe for a second that the saarebas are anything but a threat to themselves and to innocent people.

Link

4th point the viewpoint you wish the Qunari to have is what they came from, the Qun works better for their society rather than any in Thedas. Besides even if the Qun was to be altered it wouldn't come from the military wing, they don't have any influnce in that area, the priesthood would.

Have they tried anything that isn't the Qun?

The thing they had before the Qun?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 18 août 2011 - 06:00 .

[JoHnDoE14]

I personally am totaly anti-qun. People should be free to plan their own life and most importantly the qunari treat eveyrone outside of the qun as naive at the very best. Furthermore, in Tevinter there is bound to be tons of knowledge on various topics (especially magic), which must be protected. However, slavery and blood magic make them look really bad, so I would probably side with the Tevinters, but I'd try to do something about the sacrifices and everything.

[CrimsonZephyr]

All glory to the Imperium!

[Reznore57]

There 's not a lot of freedom in Thedas.In Tevinter one Archon tried to outlaw slavery , and he's been killed.To think that Tevinter is a free land is ridiculous , i don't know how human are treated in general but mages rule and if you're not a mage , chances are you don't do what you want at all.

Everyone have a role ,poor , slaves , those in power , except nobody wrote it down somewhere.
I mean in Dragon age , we always play the guy who is skilled and special and can be something else.But it took joining the grey warden , killing a Archdemon, exploring the deep road,or killing an army of Qunari...to be "free" to be something else.

[DarkDragon777]

I would support Tevinter.

[TEWR]

Well Rifneno, can you think of any other Qunari that we've seen that fits the bill perfectly for a commander of men who would replace the Arishok, with braided hair and no horns? Because I can't.

Since the role is empty, the Qunari will promote someone to that rank. No one is bred to be the Arishok. It's a promotion. And who better than Sten, the Qunari who knows about the Blight?

Either the Arishok is dead or he failed again, and who knows how the Arishok would react to failing a 2nd time.

He might just kill himself. Maybe he'll retire and be sent to the Qunari Old Folks Home. And then kill himself. Though, I don't know if a Qunari would actually kill himself for failing so many times. I just know Qunari do kill themselves

Mary Kirby wrote...

It's the same mentality the Qunari have toward mages, really. A person can't help being maimed, or suffering dementia, any more than they can help being a mage. They are honored for their willingness to serve their people as best they can, even if their body betrays them. Compassion aside, most of them kill themselves. It causes serious emotional trauma to suddenly lose your entire identity.

[TEWR]

Because apparently women can't be soldiers and men can't be priests regardless of what their aptitude is. Qunari "practicality" falls flat there (the other biggest area where it does is that stupid rule about tools holding the soul).

That's not entirely true.

David Gaider wrote...

What happens if a large majority of the creche does not provide candidates for a much needed role. Would they be forced to accept a life/role they were not meant for? For example say healers.

If it was a task within the confines of that gender, yes. Even then a qunari might do it if the need was great enough-- though they would feel a task belonging to another gender beneath them. A male qunari will farm, if he must, just as a female qunari will fight. They won't like it, however.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

How many Qunari do we know of? Just because Sten is the only one we've gotten to know doesn't mean he is the only person suited to become Arishok. I suspect the Arishok already has a successor chosen (or at least a likley candidate), somebody must have assumed his duties in his absence back on Par Vollen.