252 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

We know of only one Qunari, which makes it odd that the Black Emporium's book would even mention Sten at all if he wasn't going to have a bigger role in the series. If we knew of at least 3 hornless Qunari with braided hair, I'd just say "Well, I'd like to think they mean Sten"


EDIT: Also, the Arishok crashed in Kirkwall a year after the Blight ended, didn't he?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 août 2011 - 07:17 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because apparently women can't be soldiers and men can't be priests regardless of what their aptitude is. Qunari "practicality" falls flat there (the other biggest area where it does is that stupid rule about tools holding the soul).

That's not entirely true.

David Gaider wrote...

What happens if a large majority of the creche does not provide candidates for a much needed role. Would they be forced to accept a life/role they were not meant for? For example say healers.

If it was a task within the confines of that gender, yes. Even then a qunari might do it if the need was great enough-- though they would feel a task belonging to another gender beneath them. A male qunari will farm, if he must, just as a female qunari will fight. They won't like it, however.

Not something like changing jobs though. If someone attacks your home, you fight back, etc.

Mary Kirby wrote...

The Woldan wrote...

Mr. Gaider, wouldn't a struggling military force use ALL available resources if a war proves very difficult to win? (Qunari lost at least one war.)
As example, Russia in WWII pressed female soldiers into service, they absolutely had to boost the total number of soldiers because of the massive losses early in the war. 
The Qunari seem to be very determined if it comes to fight and win wars, wouldn't they use all available resources to be victorious? Wouldn't they recruit and train female Qunari to become warriors if the total number of male warriors isn't enough to ensure a victory?  
Sounds like a better option than losing a war, especially for such an extremely ambitious race like the Qunari.
Its just basic military tactics, if your army struggles to win just throw everything and everyone into combat! 

The Qunari don't view their military this way. For them, this suggestion would be like saying, "You're not getting enough protein in your diet, eat your own arms."

[TEWR]

I love that quote. Always makes me laugh.

[Foolsfolly]

Neminea wrote...

This whole discussion made me wonder why most of us seem to prefer Tevinter over the Qun, and I can't help but wonder if it has something to do with the fact that for as far as I can tell most of us come from western culture countries. In western culture, freedom is the be all and end all, and taking away freedom (specially that of choice) is about the worst thing someone can possibly do.
Now Tevinter takes freedom from some of it populace, while the Qun seems to take it away from everyone. Ergo, the Qun is "worse" than Tevinter.
While I am as western in terms of freedoms as it comes, I do have an interest in cultures (fictional and non-fictional) where freedom is not one of the highest priorities. Examples of this are the Borg, or the duty and honor before freedom thing that you see in the Brothers of the Nights Watch (game of thrones) or even the Orcs in Warcraft. I'm only naming fictional ones here since I don't want to be stepping on anyones toes.
I don't think those attitudes are bad or result in cultural stagnation persé, and even if it does I still can't say with certainty that it would be a bad thing. Are our own freedom cultures so fluid, or do we also keep to traditions that when looked at it as objectively as possible might not make much sense anymore either?
I don't have the answer, don't get me wrong. I just don't think that the Qun would be better or worse than Tevinter. For me, it would be an impossible choice to make. I like my freedoms, but the Qunari seem pretty content. Would I really want to destroy them all just because they think different, or worse, would I "force" them into being free... the forcing part kinda defeats the whole freedom part.

I actually think if that were the case then Tevinter would be the least appealing. In Tevinter a handful of power mages (something you're born with it's not something you train for so it's not democratic at all) rule over everything. This small percentage of Tevinter's population are strong and powerful enough to do pretty much whatever they want.

The vast majority of Tevinter are slaves.

And the percentages that aren't slaves are low level Magisters who have not come to their full power yet and are pretty much servants to the greater mages whims.

In the Qun everyone willing to convert is given jobs according to their strengths. From leading men into battle, to teachers, to doctors, to mathematians, to sea captains, to writers, to philosphers. Whatever you're best at is where your place in the Qun is.

Neither one of these soceities are free. I know people are biased about themselves and think they're always the exception, always but being in Tevinter would likely mean you were a worthless slave. Dottering around on your master's commands, broken down (like that elf slave you can adopt), and just hanging around until the Magister needs a battery to super charge their spells.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well Rifneno, can you think of any other Qunari that we've seen that fits the bill perfectly for a commander of men who would replace the Arishok, with braided hair and no horns? Because I can't.

They have to pick from among qunari we've already met?

Since the role is empty, the Qunari will promote someone to that rank. No one is bred to be the Arishok. It's a promotion. And who better than Sten, the Qunari who knows about the Blight?

I'm pretty sure the requirements for Arishok are more than "knows the blight means orcs come out of the ground and kill stuff." Especially since that only happens every few hundred years. Probably also require a cool head. Not sure "someone stole my stuff my stuff? DIE, RESCUERS!" counts as a cool head even among the qunari.

[TEWR]

I can't see Bioware dropping a hint about Sten, the only hornless Qunari we've met with braided hair, and not giving him a more important role in the series. Why would they drop a hint about him if they didn't plan to give him a more significant role?

A Sten is a commander of soldiers. If a promotion were to occur for the rank of Arishok, who commands the entire Antaam, then Sten fits the bill. He's the only Sten we've seen that's done anything noteworthy. The Stens we meet in DAII are either dead or they left. Hardly noteworthy.

And how long are you going to hold that over Sten's head? It's already been addressed that he feels horrible for what he did and will never forgive himself for it. Haven't people in our society done far worse and earned forgiveness from other people?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 août 2011 - 08:01 .

[Knal1991]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

There's one fatal flaw in Qunari society: they assume that everyone who is living in their society believes in the Qun entirely. There's no way for them to actually know if Person A is just pretending to believe so he doesn't get killed or actually does believe.

Even Saarebas kept a secret blood magic talisman, so he wasn't a devout follower of the Qun entirely. He was definitely a follower, but not in all aspects.

Oh and....

@Ghost 1041: Now I'm imagining Uncle Sam in Tevinter Mage robes.

This is actually something which happened in history, I believe it was the (I could be worng) followers of the islam who said to the people of (greece I think) that they were allowed to keep their religion (of multiple gods) only if they took their god aswell... if they didn't do it they got killed, if they did do it they could live but technically there wasn't a way to check if they actually started to believe in that God(damn I need to refresh my knowledge used to be quite informed about this subject)


EDIT: I think it was the persians and the romans

Modifié par Knal1991, 18 août 2011 - 08:01 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And how long are you going to hold that over Sten's head? It's already been addressed that he feels horrible for what he did and will never forgive himself for it. Haven't people in our society done far worse and earned forgiveness from other people?

That would be very few people.

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And how long are you going to hold that over Sten's head? It's already been addressed that he feels horrible for what he did and will never forgive himself for it. Haven't people in our society done far worse and earned forgiveness from other people?

That would be very few people.

Few maybe, but they are not nonexistent. That Sten will never forgive himself for what he did speaks volumes about his character, when most people wouldn't even give it a second thought.

[Neminea]

Most people wouldnt give murdering an entire family a second thought? o.O

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I can't see Bioware dropping a hint about Sten, the only hornless Qunari we've met with braided hair, and not giving him a more important role in the series. Why would they drop a hint about him if they didn't plan to give him a more significant role?

So instead of taking the time to compile all that Arlathan-Primeval Thaig stuff, I should've just pointed out that Ariane said she wonders if this will help us find Arlathan's ruins?

A Sten is a commander of soldiers. If a promotion were to occur for the rank of Arishok, who commands the entire Antaam, then Sten fits the bill. He's the only Sten we've seen that's done anything noteworthy. The Stens we meet in DAII are either dead or they left. Hardly noteworthy.

He didn't do anything noteworthy. He may ride the Warden's coattails. And that's a may, because lots of people leave the ****** to rot in his cage like he deserves to. But again: they have to choose from someone we've seen?

And how long are you going to hold that over Sten's head? It's already been addressed that he feels horrible for what he did and will never forgive himself for it. Haven't people in our society done far worse and earned forgiveness from other people?

Sure as hell not from me! He murdered a defenseless family, including children, whose only crime was trying to nurse him back to health, and you actually think that can or should be lightly forgiven?!

[TEWR]

Neminea wrote...

Most people wouldnt give murdering an entire family a second thought? o.O

Would most people who murdered an entire family of their own volition feel remorse? Never forgive themselves? I'm talking about sane people who have nothing wrong with their minds.

That's what I'm getting at. Of course most people who murder an entire family think about the murder, but it's usually for their enjoyment because they're sick bastards.

[Foolsfolly]

Wait, are we really going to give Sten **** for killing one family?

The Warden and Hawke both make hundreds of thousands of orphans in each game. And sometimes they're just people doing their jobs like Templar, city guard, and the like. Other times they're completely innocent people (although those are mostly choice based). Seriously breaking into the Arl of Denerim's estate and slaughtering 40-50 men and women who are just grinding the nine to five...don't you think they have kids? Brothers and sisters?

It's the whole "Luke's a mass murderer" thing when he blows up the Death Star.

So Sten killed one family. Whoopie do. The Warden punches women and kills children (Redcliffe storyline). Hawke slaughters an entire clan of Dalish elves down to nothing but cinders and then loots their corpses.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 18 août 2011 - 08:20 .

[LobselVith8]

Urzon wrote...

So what is boils down to is this...

Would you support the Qunari to bring an utopia to Thedas, at the cost of your free will?  OR  Would you support the Tevinter Imperium to keep said free will, at the cost of allowing evil to prosper?

Please discuss! 

I'd probably be a Magister on the side of the Imperium, which I figure is like being a Wizard-Lord of House Telvanni. I wonder what the Tevinter version of Tel Uvirith would be.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 18 août 2011 - 08:19 .

[Xilizhra]

*wipes away a tear* It's... so beautiful...

This is from ages ago, but thanks. A pity that there aren't as many Tevinter phrases to use as there are qunari ones, though I may be using this one a lot. It certainly has mileage when it comes to the Arishok.

I'm curious, though. What would Sten need to do for you to forgive him? Also, is he specifically to blame, given that the Qun has reshaped his mind far more extensively than the Circle has for non-Tranquil mages?

[TEWR]

So instead of taking the time to compile all that Arlathan-Primeval Thaig stuff, I should've just pointed out that Ariane said she wonders if this will help us find Arlathan's ruins?

What?

He didn't do anything noteworthy. He may ride the Warden's coattails. And that's a may, because lots of people leave the ****** to rot in his cage like he deserves to. But again: they have to choose from someone we've seen?

He did do something noteworthy for the Qunari. He found out what the Blight is. That was his goal, and he avenged the deaths of his brothers.

Sure as hell not from me! He murdered a defenseless family, including children, whose only crime was trying to nurse him back to health, and you actually think that can or should be lightly forgiven?!

What he did was horrible yes, and I couldn't forgive him immediately. But eventually I was able to forgive him because forgiveness is something that's earned. He may not be able to forgive himself, and that's something commendable about his character, but that doesn't mean he can't be forgiven.

[Foolsfolly]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Urzon wrote...

So what is boils down to is this...

Would you support the Qunari to bring an utopia to Thedas, at the cost of your free will?  OR  Would you support the Tevinter Imperium to keep said free will, at the cost of allowing evil to prosper?

Please discuss! 

I'd probably be a Magister on the side of the Imperium, which I figure is like being a Wizard-Lord of House Telvanni. I wonder what the Tevinter version of Tel Uvirith would be.

I've never seen Tevinter as being House Telvanni. I'd support this, lightly. House Telvanni was too stagnet for how I'd think Tevinter would be, which I assume is very Darwanian.

I've actually always seen Tevinter as an expansion to BioWare's take on the Sith Empire in KOTOR. Star Wars morality is clearly defined good and evil where there's no in-between. The Sith Empire in KOTOR were slightly more nauanced than that, they were still evil but slightly more nauanced.

Tevinter takes the same core beliefs of those Sith (Strongest rules, rule everyone and everything) but it exists in a world where good and evil aren't as clearly defined as the color coded morality of the Star Wars universe.

Another part of this has to do with the fact that we've yet to meet someone from Tevinter who wasn't insanely evil, utterly broken, or Fenris. So they still resemble the Sith Empire really well.

[Xilizhra]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Wait, are we really going to give Sten **** for killing one family?

The Warden and Hawke both make hundreds of thousands of orphans in each game. And sometimes they're just people doing their jobs like Templar, city guard, and the like. Other times they're completely innocent people (although those are mostly choice based). Seriously breaking into the Arl of Denerim's estate and slaughtering 40-50 men and women who are just grinding the nine to five...don't you think they have kids? Brothers and sisters?

It's the whole "Luke's a mass murderer" thing when he blows up the Death Star.

So Sten killed one family. Whoopie do. The Warden punches women and kills children (Redcliffe storyline). Hawke slaughters an entire clan of Dalish elves down to nothing but cinders and then loots their corpses.

I don't remember a lot about the Warden, but with Hawke... really? The entire Dalish clan will go psycho and try to kill her for telling the truth about Marethari. All the templars whom she can kill will try to kill her first, and she never kills any city guards (well, she can lead guards to their deaths against Evets Marauders, but I don't think that counts). 

Another part of this has to do with the fact that we've yet to meet someone from Tevinter who wasn't insanely evil, utterly broken, or Fenris. So they still resemble the Sith Empire really well.

Caladrius and the slaver leader from Wayward Son didn't seem insanely evil. Just... well, doing their jobs. They're like the Tevinter equivalent of templars in that regard.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 août 2011 - 08:28 .

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Wait, are we really going to give Sten **** for killing one family?

The Warden and Hawke both make hundreds of thousands of orphans in each game. And sometimes they're just people doing their jobs like Templar, city guard, and the like. Other times they're completely innocent people (although those are mostly choice based). Seriously breaking into the Arl of Denerim's estate and slaughtering 40-50 men and women who are just grinding the nine to five...don't you think they have kids? Brothers and sisters?

It's the whole "Luke's a mass murderer" thing when he blows up the Death Star.

So Sten killed one family. Whoopie do. The Warden punches women and kills children (Redcliffe storyline). Hawke slaughters an entire clan of Dalish elves down to nothing but cinders and then loots their corpses.

I guess it's because those are nameless mooks, but people are quick to use the nameless mook Templars that side with Meredith as proof to side against the Templars.

The Warden and Hawke were indeed mass murderers as you said, and that's one of the reasons why I don't give Sten too much **** about murdering a family.

I mean seriously, the Warden can initiate combat with Cauthrien and her men and that leads to families losing loved ones.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 août 2011 - 08:30 .

[Foolsfolly]

The entire Dalish clan will go psycho and try to kill her for telling the truth about Marethari

Actually a handful of Dalish attack Hawke and Merrill. They defend themselves and then descend the mountain like a plague of locust and slaughter the unknowing elves in their homes. It's really a huge "What the ****" moment in the game.

I still can't make sense of it, not totally. And if you're extremely lucky in the middle of the slaughtering of innocent Dalish elves you'd hit a conversation trigger and two of your companions will idly talk about rumors, gossip, or joke around while purging the mountain of elves.

It's really quite horrifying the first time that happens.

[Xilizhra]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The entire Dalish clan will go psycho and try to kill her for telling the truth about Marethari

Actually a handful of Dalish attack Hawke and Merrill. They defend themselves and then descend the mountain like a plague of locust and slaughter the unknowing elves in their homes. It's really a huge "What the ****" moment in the game.

I still can't make sense of it, not totally. And if you're extremely lucky in the middle of the slaughtering of innocent Dalish elves you'd hit a conversation trigger and two of your companions will idly talk about rumors, gossip, or joke around while purging the mountain of elves.

It's really quite horrifying the first time that happens.

I don't know about you, but I left combat stance, sheathed weapons and all that, went down the mountain in the hopes of leaving without stirring up anything, and then the entire clan went red and tried to kill us.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I tend to play my characters as merciful almost all the time but I felt no remorse leaving Sten to die in the cage in my first and second runs of DAO. I don't think it's any less than he deserves after what he did. He even agreed.

On the third time I took him with me because I decided it was pointless to waste his in game content.

The Warden and Hawke mostly kill people in self defense.And if they don't then it's usually a clearly evil decison like wiping out the dalish clan with the werewolves. Sten murdered innocent children and their parents with his own 2 hands for no reason. After learning why he did what he did it actually made it worse. I don't see why he deserves absolution for what he did.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 18 août 2011 - 08:34 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Wait, are we really going to give Sten **** for killing one family?

The Warden and Hawke both make hundreds of thousands of orphans in each game. And sometimes they're just people doing their jobs like Templar, city guard, and the like. Other times they're completely innocent people (although those are mostly choice based). Seriously breaking into the Arl of Denerim's estate and slaughtering 40-50 men and women who are just grinding the nine to five...don't you think they have kids? Brothers and sisters?

It's the whole "Luke's a mass murderer" thing when he blows up the Death Star.

So Sten killed one family. Whoopie do. The Warden punches women and kills children (Redcliffe storyline). Hawke slaughters an entire clan of Dalish elves down to nothing but cinders and then loots their corpses.

I guess it's because those are nameless mooks, but people are quick to use the nameless mook Templars that side with Meredith as proof to side against the Templars.

The Warden and Hawke were indeed mass murderers as you said, and that's one of the reasons why I don't give Sten too much **** about murdering a family.

I mean seriously, the Warden can initiate combat with Cauthrien and her men and that leads to families losing loved ones.

They're soldiers. It is part of their line of work. A family trying to nurse you back to health is clearly different from a guard. Why do you kill the guards? Oh yes, for a reason.

Edit: The Dalish clan tries to kill you btw. If the family was trying to kill Sten, I'd have less of a problem with it.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 18 août 2011 - 08:36 .

[Xilizhra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I tend to play my characters as merciful almost all the time but I felt no remorse leaving Sten to die in the cage in my first and second runs of DAO. I don't think it's any less than he deserves after what he did. He even agreed.

On the third time I took him with me because I decided it was pointless to waste his in game content.

The Warden and Hawke mostly kill people in self defense.And if they don't then it's usually a clearly evil decison like wiping out the dalish clan with the werewolves. Sten murdered innocent children and their parents with his own 2 hands for no reason. After learning why he did what he did it actually made it worse. I don't see why he deserves absolution for what he did.

Eh. I enjoy forgiveness, personally, and have no issue doing so for Sten after sufficient repentence.

[Reznore57]

Well if i remember correctly Sten felt really bad about the murder.He was pretty much waiting for death in his cage , and didn't deny he deserved it.
He lost his sword (his "soul") and he had a fit , and the Qun doesn't glorify losing your temper and murder innocents at all.
It's been a long time since i played DAo , but when you met him you try to convince him that following you will redeem him a bit.