252 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I tend to play my characters as merciful almost all the time but I felt no remorse leaving Sten to die in the cage in my first and second runs of DAO. I don't think it's any less than he deserves after what he did. He even agreed.

On the third time I took him with me because I decided it was pointless to waste his in game content.

The Warden and Hawke mostly kill people in self defense.And if they don't then it's usually a clearly evil decison like wiping out the dalish clan with the werewolves. Sten murdered innocent children and their parents with his own 2 hands for no reason. After learning why he did what he did it actually made it worse. I don't see why he deserves absolution for what he did.

Key word that you used: Mostly. The Warden and Hawke can also just randomly start fighting people and that leads to many deaths. More deaths than Sten caused.

The Warden can kill Cauthrien and her men when she only wanted them to surrender. She didn't want them killed.

Hawke can kill Coterie members when he could've explained to them that he wasn't responsible for Lilley's death.

[TEWR]

Reznore57 wrote...

Well if i remember correctly Sten felt really bad about the murder.He was pretty much waiting for death in his cage , and didn't deny he deserved it.
He lost his sword (his "soul") and he had a fit , and the Qun doesn't glorify losing your temper and murder innocents at all.
It's been a long time since i played DAo , but when you met him you try to convince him that following you will redeem him a bit.

Indeed. He admits that atonement can be earned in other ways, the Revered Mother says that he might earn repentance by going with the Warden, and Ser Bryant says that the Maker shows love for all of his creations (I doubt the Maker exists, but that's irrelevant to the point I'm making so why I said it I don't know).

Mary Kirby even said that he never forgives himself for what he did.

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I tend to play my characters as merciful almost all the time but I felt no remorse leaving Sten to die in the cage in my first and second runs of DAO. I don't think it's any less than he deserves after what he did. He even agreed.

On the third time I took him with me because I decided it was pointless to waste his in game content.

The Warden and Hawke mostly kill people in self defense.And if they don't then it's usually a clearly evil decison like wiping out the dalish clan with the werewolves. Sten murdered innocent children and their parents with his own 2 hands for no reason. After learning why he did what he did it actually made it worse. I don't see why he deserves absolution for what he did.

Key word that you used: Mostly. The Warden and Hawke can also just randomly start fighting people and that leads to many deaths. More deaths than Sten caused.

The Warden can kill Cauthrien and her men when she only wanted them to surrender. She didn't want them killed.

Hawke can kill Coterie members when he could've explained to them that he wasn't responsible for Lilley's death.

It must be said that I don't.

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Warden can kill Cauthrien and her men when she only wanted them to surrender. She didn't want them killed.

Yes, dangling from the gallows isn't at all a likely prospect after having killed the current regents closest advisor.

Edit: What you saw in the dungeons there doesn't really inspire confidence in the legal system of Ferelden either.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 18 août 2011 - 08:43 .

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Warden can kill Cauthrien and her men when she only wanted them to surrender. She didn't want them killed.

Yes, dangling from the gallows isn't at all a likely prospect after having killed the current regents closest advisor.

It's still an unwarranted attack. Hell the Warden's got friends he can rely on, and Morrigan gives the Warden a ring in the event he does get captured.

I'd rather trick the guards and place my trust in my friends or my own cunning then kill more people than need be.

[wetnasty]

I guess I'm the only one that doesn't find Tevinter that bad. I mean really, all we have to go on from Tevinter is allegory of the Chantry (the most fair and balanced society in Thedas... The Fox News of Thedas) and 1 screwed up mage hating elven ****** who can't even remember his own name. I wouldn't jump to conclusions just yet. There could be a lot of corruption in Tevinter, but are we absolutely sure that things like this aren't looked down on? Are we really sure there aren't a lot of people trying to make things right? To me it feels like one of those "don't judge a book by its cover" things.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I tend to play my characters as merciful almost all the time but I felt no remorse leaving Sten to die in the cage in my first and second runs of DAO. I don't think it's any less than he deserves after what he did. He even agreed.

On the third time I took him with me because I decided it was pointless to waste his in game content.

The Warden and Hawke mostly kill people in self defense.And if they don't then it's usually a clearly evil decison like wiping out the dalish clan with the werewolves. Sten murdered innocent children and their parents with his own 2 hands for no reason. After learning why he did what he did it actually made it worse. I don't see why he deserves absolution for what he did.

Key word that you used: Mostly. The Warden and Hawke can also just randomly start fighting people and that leads to many deaths. More deaths than Sten caused.

The Warden can kill Cauthrien and her men when she only wanted them to surrender. She didn't want them killed.

Hawke can kill Coterie members when he could've explained to them that he wasn't responsible for Lilley's death.

It must be said that I don't.

Neither do I, but it doesn't change the fact that the Warden and Hawke can do it. And even through the self-defense, you're never given the option to try and get them to stand down. You just act slaughter everything in your path. And that still causes people to lose their families.

Hell, the Warden can murder knife people who don't deserve it! The guard in the city elf origin who was just sleeping, Brother Genitivi, a wounded soldier in Ostagar (who for some reason if healed causes the game to make a collapsing noise, which is funny), Lloyd for no reason, etc.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Just because you can do evil things in the game doesn't mean it's always OK when you run into it with other characters. Maybe a Warden who went round killing as many people as he could would be hypocritical for disliking Sten for what he did but it's not something that is inherently always part of the Warden of Hawke characters. Sten murdering the families who helped him is among the most indefensible things i can think of in both games. Even helping Meredith annul the Circle or wiping out the dalish in the first game can sort of be seen as having a vague justification (however morally dubious). Sten has none. A group of people saved his life and he brutally killed children and their parents because he panicked in their vicinity? It's baffling to me because from what he tells the warden it has nothing to do with being a Qunari or the Qun, it simply seems to be how he reacts to fear. I know being unable to find his sword and go home might be frightening but why would he jump from that to randomly murdering the first person he sees?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 18 août 2011 - 08:52 .

[TEWR]

Perhaps he just killed them without realizing he was doing it, and when it was over he looked down at what he had done? Haven't similar incidents also happened in our society, where people do something like that?

I realize I said he did it of his own volition a while back, but I'm unsure if he did it on purpose or on accident, as I haven't had the conversation with Sten for a while.

[Reznore57]

Well , he's a warrior who fell on the battlefield.First thing when he woke up ,must have been looking for his weapon.I'm pretty sure he didn't even realise where he was.
I don't think he woke up , had a cup of tea with the familly then ask about his weapon and murder them.

[Xilizhra]

I know being unable to find his sword and go home might be frightening but why would he jump from that to randomly murdering the first person he sees?

Well, to be fair, he thought he'd had his soul stolen.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

I know being unable to find his sword and go home might be frightening but why would he jump from that to randomly murdering the first person he sees?

Well, to be fair, he thought he'd had his soul stolen.

That's true.

He's been bred in a society where returning without your weapon results in your death, and there are how many countries in Thedas (not counting Par Vollen and Seheron)? And then how many miles are there in those countries?

I'm not saying his actions are condonable. They most certainly aren't. But it shows a fatal flaw in the Qunari way of thinking, that the people who don't waste life would kill someone for losing their weapon. I understand the sentimentality something like that can have, but for the Qunari to take that to the extreme is.... odd.

[The dead fish]

No. Neither one nor the other.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Would most people who murdered an entire family of their own volition feel remorse? Never forgive themselves? I'm talking about sane people who have nothing wrong with their minds.

That's what I'm getting at. Of course most people who murder an entire family think about the murder, but it's usually for their enjoyment because they're sick bastards.

So he's better than Charles Manson. Yay for him. What standards he has to measure up to.

Xilizhra wrote...

This is from ages ago, but thanks. A pity that there aren't as many Tevinter phrases to use as there are qunari ones, though I may be using this one a lot. It certainly has mileage when it comes to the Arishok.

I'm curious, though. What would Sten need to do for you to forgive him? Also, is he specifically to blame, given that the Qun has reshaped his mind far more extensively than the Circle has for non-Tranquil mages?

Nothing. This is one of those few types of crimes I don't believe can be forgiven. If it was proven he had some mental illness that made it so he couldn't reasonable control himself, it might absolve him but the end result is the same because they don't have psychiatric treatments in Thedas. As for the Qun, I don't it mitigates his responsibility unless they taught him this sort of thing wasn't that bad, which they obviously didn't.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

What?

You're saying they must have plans for him because they made a reference to him. I was joking that by that logic, I should've just quoted Ariane in the Primeval Thaig=Arlathan Ruins thread. BTW, there's a much better reference to Sten in DA2. Take Bethany to meet the Qunari and she'll darkly mention how Sten murdered her best friend. What a sweetheart.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I mean seriously, the Warden can initiate combat with Cauthrien and her men and that leads to families losing loved ones.

Not even remotely the same thing.

Xilizhra wrote...

Eh. I enjoy forgiveness, personally, and have no issue doing so for Sten after sufficient repentence.

Honestly, I do too. There aren't many things I find unforgivable. But what Sten did... Jesus. If someone did that even in this day and age, it'd likely be national news.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's still an unwarranted attack. Hell the Warden's got friends he can rely on, and Morrigan gives the Warden a ring in the event he does get captured.

I know it's a bit off-topic but... Wha? Ring? I think I missed something.

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's still an unwarranted attack. Hell the Warden's got friends he can rely on, and Morrigan gives the Warden a ring in the event he does get captured.

I know it's a bit off-topic but... Wha? Ring? I think I missed something.

If you've done her romance up to that point by that time you get a ring.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 18 août 2011 - 09:37 .

[TEWR]

You're saying they must have plans for him because they made a reference to him. I was joking that by that logic, I should've just quoted Ariane in the Primeval Thaig=Arlathan Ruins thread. BTW, there's a much better reference to Sten in DA2. Take Bethany to meet the Qunari and she'll darkly mention how Sten murdered her best friend. What a sweetheart.

To talk about your Primeval Thaig thing, did you ever bring up the Varterrals all going ape**** in there?

And I already said what Sten did was horrible.

Not even remotely the same thing.

No? We're talking about butchering a family and causing the only survivor, a child, to have no one left. Cauthrien and her men are asking you to surrender. They may be working for Loghain, but that doesn't mean they will immediately kill you when you surrender. It's likely, but there are other things to account for. Like Morrigan's Ring. That's your own little insurance policy. As well as your friends that you put your trust in.

You're murdering a bunch of soldiers just doing their job and following the person they believe is the only one who can defeat the Blight. They're doing their job, and if you kill them, you've caused many families to lose their loved ones. No different than Sten.

And what about Genitivi if you murder him? The Chantry is probably his family, are you content with murdering him and not forgiving Sten (assuming you actually do kill Genitivi)? What about the soldier sleeping on the job in Bann Vaughn's estate? The dying soldier in Ostagar? The soldier who "deserted"? Lloyd? The three humans in the Brecilian forest? The dwarven merchant (or smuggler?) in the DC origin? And so on and so forth.

These are all people the Warden can murder, and who will make people miss them. They have families. They may have children. They have friends. Killing them makes you no better than Sten. There are some murder knife incidents that deserve it (the DN origin one), but most are just innocent people.

I know it's a bit off-topic but... Wha? Ring? I think I missed something.

The ring she gives a Warden who romances her. While it's only there if you romance her, it's still there and gives you reason to trust in your friends.

Besides, with Arl Howe dead, Arl Eamon in town for the Landsmeet, and Queen Anora rescued, you have no reason to assume you'll hang from the Gallows immediately since the death of the only two Wardens in Ferelden would be seen as suspicious to say the least.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 août 2011 - 10:23 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Warden can kill Cauthrien and her men when she only wanted them to surrender. She didn't want them killed.

Yes, dangling from the gallows isn't at all a likely prospect after having killed the current regents closest advisor.

It's still an unwarranted attack. Hell the Warden's got friends he can rely on, and Morrigan gives the Warden a ring in the event he does get captured.

I'd rather trick the guards and place my trust in my friends or my own cunning then kill more people than need be.

I'd have to disagree, you don't know your friends will pull through for you. You don't know you'll be able to do a successful prison break. The gallows is a very likely possibility from surrendering there.

not quite. You know Morrigan is a very capable liar (something she tells you). You know Leliana is a bard that could work her way anywhere. You know Zevran is a skilled assassin. You potentially (depending on if it's the HN Origin) have a dog that can use his charms to get what he wants.

You have Sten.

You also have maybe a silver tongue. You have Arl Eamon and Queen Anora on your side (the latter possibly) who can use their influence for you. While it's not guaranteed you'll succeed, there is a high chance of success if you get to know your companions.

[Herr Uhl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

not quite. You know Morrigan is a very capable liar (something she tells you). You know Leliana is a bard that could work her way anywhere. You know Zevran is a skilled assassin. You potentially (depending on if it's the HN Origin) have a dog that can use his charms to get what he wants.

You have Sten.

You also have maybe a silver tongue. You have Arl Eamon and Queen Anora on your side (the latter possibly) who can use their influence for you. While it's not guaranteed you'll succeed, there is a high chance of success if you get to know your companions.

Considering that Loghain detained her and his lieutendant captured her again, I expected here to be back in custody.

And on another note, how is killing the prison guards any more humane than the guards that are sent against you first?

Edit: I was expecting a "game over" if I gave up.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 18 août 2011 - 10:29 .

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

not quite. You know Morrigan is a very capable liar (something she tells you). You know Leliana is a bard that could work her way anywhere. You know Zevran is a skilled assassin. You potentially (depending on if it's the HN Origin) have a dog that can use his charms to get what he wants.

You have Sten.

You also have maybe a silver tongue. You have Arl Eamon and Queen Anora on your side (the latter possibly) who can use their influence for you. While it's not guaranteed you'll succeed, there is a high chance of success if you get to know your companions.

Considering that Loghain detained her and his lieutendant captured her again, I expected here to be back in custody.

And on another note, how is killing the prison guards any more humane than the guards that are sent against you first?

You can actually sneak past them if you have stealth. If you have Alistair, just tell him to hold and go far enough. Tell him to follow you and he magically appears behind you!

No deaths necessary (if you're a rogue that is)!

And I never did understand how Cauthrien let Anora go if you surrendered. I guess it's because she was in armor and wasn't recognizable by Cauthrien? Or that Cauthrien knew what Loghain did to her was wrong, so she let her go (I remember being able to convince her of Loghain's evils)

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

not quite. You know Morrigan is a very capable liar (something she tells you). You know Leliana is a bard that could work her way anywhere. You know Zevran is a skilled assassin. You potentially (depending on if it's the HN Origin) have a dog that can use his charms to get what he wants.

You have Sten.

You also have maybe a silver tongue. You have Arl Eamon and Queen Anora on your side (the latter possibly) who can use their influence for you. While it's not guaranteed you'll succeed, there is a high chance of success if you get to know your companions.

You don't know any of that translated to successfully breaking the Warden out of Fort Drakon, or even having a remotely high chance of success. What if they put him on higher security than they did, given it's Loghain's intention to get rid of the Warden traitors? What if they executed him immediately?

Also note that any of your companions breaking you out necessitates more dead soldiers than Cauthrien and her crew. The only way to avoid bloodshed, minus the kennel guy and his dogs, is breaking out yourself.

And your silver tongue... right. I'll let myself get into a situations where I'll very likely die and hope my silver tongue saves me. No, it's still very reasonable to fight there.

Except that the deaths of the Wardens would be seen with suspicion. It's known that they're staying with Arl Eamon and are his allies. That they're trying to put Alistair on the throne. If they were to die, people would cast their suspicions on Loghain. He can't murder them immediately. He can only detain them.

And can't your companions bluff their way to you without any bloodshed? I thought that was possible.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 août 2011 - 10:34 .

[Foolsfolly]

I've never once given the fact that Sten killed a whole family any real thought. I had just gotten out of a massacre in Ostagar, had had my family killed by Howe, and then there's this potential soldier companion who killed some dirt farmers. I accepted him immediately.

I think holding the fact that he's a murderer like that against him is hard to do. We didn't see the family, we didn't see the murder, we didn't see the aftermath of the murder. And frankly the setting is loaded with death and murder. You even get an assassin companion soon after.

I can understand why some wouldn't like that, he did murder a whole family that helped him. But to me it was a non-issue. The game's full of that kind of behavior and it meant nothing to me that he'd killed some people. Right there in Lothering if you go to Leliana you're attacked by poor defenseless villagers who are starving and wanting to provide for their families by cashing in on the bounty on Wardens.

You can't help but slaughter them dooming multiple families right there.

Thedas is a brutal place.

[TEWR]

How many people accepted Zevran but not Sten? Zevran is an assassin who built his life around murdering people. Guilty and innocent both.