252 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Except that the deaths of the Wardens would be seen with suspicion. It's known that they're staying with Arl Eamon and are his allies. That they're trying to put Alistair on the throne. If they were to die, people would cast their suspicions on Loghain. He can't murder them immediately. He can only detain them.

And can't your companions bluff their way to you without any bloodshed? I thought that was possible.

They bluff their way past the main hall, then kill their way to you... then you kill your way out.

And my Warden wouldn't be so sure Loghain would pay heed to such consequences.

Considering that moving against the Wardens, who are allies to Eamon, would be tantamount to moving against Eamon himself; he won't do it. Eamon said that if Loghain moved against him, it would weaken Loghain's cause.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 août 2011 - 10:42 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Eamon said they wouldn't do it, I'll have them write that on my gravestone.

I don't follow.

I'm assuming you either mean for your Warden:

A) If I take him on his word I'll probably die by doing so.

or

Because Eamon was poisoned by Loghain secretly before the Landsmeet Eamon was going to call was called, your Warden doesn't put much faith in his word.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 août 2011 - 10:48 .

[TEWR]

You think Alistair would stand with Eamon if he did that? Eamon's life was saved by the Warden. He owes the Warden a debt. Something more then "You're a Champion!"


Speaking of which, why wasn't there a Champion specialization in DAII for Warriors when they become.... Champion?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 août 2011 - 11:26 .

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You think Alistair would stand with Eamon if he did that? Eamon's life was saved by the Warden. He owes the Warden a debt. Something more then "You're a Champion!"


Speaking of which, why wasn't there a Champion class in DAII for Warriors when they become.... Champion?

Because then everyone would take it for RP reasons and it'd lead to less variation. Everyone's supposed to be an equal Champion.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You think Alistair would stand with Eamon if he did that? Eamon's life was saved by the Warden. He owes the Warden a debt. Something more then "You're a Champion!"


Speaking of which, why wasn't there a Champion class in DAII for Warriors when they become.... Champion?

Because then everyone would take it for RP reasons and it'd lead to less variation. Everyone's supposed to be an equal Champion.

They could've made a new Rogue specialization that is for Rogue Champions, or improved on an older one. We could have had Force Mages for Mages, Champions for Warriors, Rangers for Rogues.

If I could've played a Rogue Hawke that could've summoned his own personal army of wolves, bears, spiders, and gorillas; I would've enjoyed playing as Hawke.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 août 2011 - 11:27 .

[Xilizhra]

I think the Battlemaster tree does most Champion stuff already. As for Rangers... they really never had the slightest hint of lore basis. It was a silly specialization.

If I wanted to change anything, it'd be not having specializations that would make no sense lorewise without a certain other tree. For instance, it makes no real sense to be a Shadow without the Subterfuge tree, and no real sense to be a Force Mage without the Arcane tree. I can accept Spirit Healer because Heal is only one spell.

[TEWR]

Rangers make sense if you're a Dalish. They live with nature. But I'd like to see it be given more of a lore type of thing as well.

Top four specializations I want to see return:

1) Ranger
2) Arcane Warrior
3) Spirit Warrior
4) Shapeshifter

[Rifneno]

How did we get to specializations from Qunari vs. Tevinter? O_o

[TEWR]

A wizard did it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...

How did we get to specializations from Qunari vs. Tevinter? O_o

One time, a thread in DA2 became all about Mass effect, so it's not surprising.

Oh and Geth > Qunari.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A wizard did it.

Damnit, Anders!

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A wizard did it.

Damnit, Anders!

Speaking of which... just to keep things in perspective about things that are unforgiveable, do remember that one of our more... respected figures did help kick off a world war with a huge bomb.

[Todd23]

The perfect game to me would be being in the Imperium, I'd love to play as someone who rises through the ranks and changes the Imperium's ways. (No slavery or blood magic) But let them keep their "Black Divine". An added plus would be if I started off high ranked and powerful. (especially if I were the warden)

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A wizard did it.

Damnit, Anders!

Speaking of which... just to keep things in perspective about things that are unforgiveable, do remember that one of our more... respected figures did help kick off a world war with a huge bomb.

Exactly.  He did it because it was the only way to force a rebellion that would end a thousand year reign of oppression.  Countless people in future generations will be free because of it.  Nobody benefits from Sten's slaughter.  It's not an ends justify the means or gray choice or self-defense against an otherwise good person.  It is completely without defense.  He's no better than Kelder.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A wizard did it.

Damnit, Anders!

Speaking of which... just to keep things in perspective about things that are unforgiveable, do remember that one of our more... respected figures did help kick off a world war with a huge bomb.

Exactly.  He did it because it was the only way to force a rebellion that would end a thousand year reign of oppression.  Countless people in future generations will be free because of it.  Nobody benefits from Sten's slaughter.  It's not an ends justify the means or gray choice or self-defense against an otherwise good person.  It is completely without defense.  He's no better than Kelder.

Right. So what we've established is that the act itself can't be unforgiveable regardless of the actual damage it does.  If the right amount of atonement can be made for it--manifested in Anders' case by the freedom you mentioned--then it can be forgiven. So all we need to establish now is what Sten can do to make up for it.

[Sinaxi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A wizard did it.

Damnit, Anders!

Speaking of which... just to keep things in perspective about things that are unforgiveable, do remember that one of our more... respected figures did help kick off a world war with a huge bomb.

Exactly.  He did it because it was the only way to force a rebellion that would end a thousand year reign of oppression.  Countless people in future generations will be free because of it.  Nobody benefits from Sten's slaughter.  It's not an ends justify the means or gray choice or self-defense against an otherwise good person.  It is completely without defense.  He's no better than Kelder.

Right. So what we've established is that the act itself can't be unforgiveable regardless of the actual damage it does.  If the right amount of atonement can be made for it--manifested in Anders' case by the freedom you mentioned--then it can be forgiven. So all we need to establish now is what Sten can do to make up for it.

Well. He did help the Warden in their quest to end the Blight...not that he really had much choice either way...but I guess he could have just left if he wanted to go search for his sword. He didn't though.

One thing I find so odd about Sten's slaughter of that family though...is didn't he have a conversation with one of them beforehand? He lost his sword, and they woke him up...then he searched for his sword before asking them what happened to it. It wasn't just an instantaneous lash out on whatever was nearest after the realization that he lost his sword, he actually had a conversation with these people...told the Warden that he knew they didn't take the sword because they had no reason to lie - and then killed them.

[TEWR]

I believe Sten looked around in regards to the house, then asked them. Then, he probably started panicking when he thought about returning home without Asala, and when he finally calmed down he looked down to see the carnage his own hands had wrought.

[ImoenBaby]

Rifneno wrote...

ImoenBaby wrote...

I wouldn't categorize Tevinter under free will. It's a slave society.

So was the United States a few hundred years ago.  And most every other nation that currently brags about their awesome freedoms.

Non-sequitur.

From my perspective - content and free in my largely egalitarian society* - the choice is easy. I'm not submitting to any Borg bull___t. Yes, the Imperium is foul...but eat me, Qun. 

But a slave in the Imperium? Who -say- watched a boy bleed to death for a party favour? He's thinking how much nicer it would be if he could be treated with something approaching dignity. Sure, in the Qun you don't go to career day or even have a traditional family structure...but it's still an improvement. A dramatic one, if you're living in a society that can bleed you for lulz.

Unless you're a mage, of course.

Also, I'm assuming we have to choose to support Tevinter or the Qun, with no alternatives. That means Tevinter as it is, not how it might be idealized in a United States-like future.   

And if we're talking ideal scenerios, I'd prefer to play the two off each other and watch both crumble.

*Egalitarian on paper, backed by the law. In reality there are many inequalities in Canada.  

Modifié par ImoenBaby, 19 août 2011 - 07:30 .

[ThePhoenixKing]

Excellent question, OP. Honestly, I don't really have an answer for you; neither are particularly appealling cultures, and in the best case scenario, the two would weaken each other significantly enough for the rest of Thedas to march in and clean their clocks.

Still, it's a very good idea, and I hope that Bioware implements it in some form for DA3. Having to make such a choice (or try to manipulate circumstances to the disadvantage of both belligerents) would be an interesting scenario, and would serve to give the player a greater sense of impact and agency than in DA2.

The Qunari/Tevinter conflict could also be applied more in detail with specific missions or quests. Here's an idea: during the course of DA3, the protagonist (for the sake of simplicity and my own hopes, let's say it's the Warden) goes to Minrathous with his/her team to accomplish a specific objective (perhaps a high-ranking Magister is looking to defect, or they need to retrieve a powerful Tevinter artifact or tome that will help their cause). The Warden and company arrive to find the city besieged by a massive Qunari host, led by the new Arishok (actually Sten from Origins).

As they make their way through the city, the party will have opportunities to either help or hinder the Tevinter defense, either to support their chosen faction or simply make it easier for them to move throughout the city unimpeded. For example, the Warden could ambush a Tevinter barricade, making it easier for the Qunari to move through the city should they breach the walls, Or, they could hunt down teams of Qunari sappers and inflitrators, preventing them from disrupting the Tevinter defense. Having such moment-to-moment decisions will make DA3 more engaging, and make the player feel like their actions truly matter. (Ex., if you undemined the Tevinter defense significantly, then the Qunari will take the city much more quickly and bring the Imperium to its knees; if you sabotage the Qunari, then Minrathous will eventually repel the siege).

Thoughts?

[GodWood]

Qun

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Right. So what we've established is that the act itself can't be unforgiveable regardless of the actual damage it does. If the right amount of atonement can be made for it--manifested in Anders' case by the freedom you mentioned--then it can be forgiven. So all we need to establish now is what Sten can do to make up for it.

No. There's a difference between earning atonement for an act that was completely unjustifed and not needing atonement for an act that was justified. In my view, Sten cannot be forgiven. Maybe by a deity at death if one exists, but not in life by me.

ImoenBaby wrote...

Non-sequitur.

Someone disapproves of an analogy that conflicts with their viewpoints. I'm shocked. Truly.

But a slave in the Imperium? Who -say- watched a boy bleed to death for a party favour? He's thinking how much nicer it would be if he could be treated with something approaching dignity. Sure, in the Qun you don't go to career day or even have a traditional family structure...but it's still an improvement. A dramatic one, if you're living in a society that can bleed you for lulz.

As opposed to the history of... pretty much any real country where slaves were raped, beaten (often times to death), starved, and any number of other atrocities that would leave any of us curled up in a ball on the floor of a therapist's office from merely witnessing it.

Unless you're a mage, of course.

City elves and casteless dwarves don't seem to fare much better.

I'm not saying Tevinter doesn't suck ass. Of course it does. My point is, so does the rest of Thedas. Thedas is a crapsack world. Every country we've seen is just terrible, the oh-so-wonderful Ferelden included. Tevinter probably sucks more than most (and I say probably because, let's face it, all the information we have on it comes from sources that are either very biased or thousands of years old) but it's probably a lot closer to the "free" nations of Thedas than most people think.

[Ausstig]

I think them form a nice contrast, the Qun about the suppression of self and Tevinter about the exultation of self.

I would go Tevinter lesser of two evils.

[Xilizhra]

No. There's a difference between earning atonement for an act that was completely unjustifed and not needing atonement for an act that was justified. In my view, Sten cannot be forgiven. Maybe by a deity at death if one exists, but not in life by me.

Well, if you prefer.

As opposed to the history of... pretty much any real country where slaves were raped, beaten (often times to death), starved, and any number of other atrocities that would leave any of us curled up in a ball on the floor of a therapist's office from merely witnessing it.

It's interesting that all slave atrocities we've heard about in Tevinter are magical and utilitarian in nature. Do they just not bother with mundane abuse because it's less helpful?