252 réponses à ce sujet

[Neminea]

I'm not sure that the Qunari don't have a decent society to begin with, at least everyone has a place there. I doubt they let anyone starve to death, or beat people for the enjoyment of it, or kill amongst themselves.

[jamesp81]

I would side with the Tevinter Imperium.  Break out the blood magic and the summoned demons.  If the Qun is so strong, let them face the full power of the magister lords.  Furthermore, if you could get Tevinter and the rest of Thedas to get along, at least for the war against the Qunari, the Chantry's templars could neutralize the mages the Qun does have.

Siding with Tevinter is kind of like siding with the Soviets to beat the ****s.

I dispute one of the OP's statements:

If You Side With The Qun
            Pro
1) Being able to destory the Tevinter Imperium (by far the most evil society in Thedas) once and for all.
2) Thedas will be unified, and there will be no more war between countries.
3) There will be no more poor, for everyone under the Qun has a job to do.
4) Everyone has a place in the Qun. Whether it be begger, elf, merchant, mage, warrior, or worker.

"Unity" is not a Pro.  In fact, it's a MASSIVE con.  NO ONE government or person should wield so much power.  Anyone who speaks of world unity speaks of world rule, and he is putting himself or his ideology forth as the ruler.

[jamesp81]

Neminea wrote...

This whole discussion made me wonder why most of us seem to prefer Tevinter over the Qun, and I can't help but wonder if it has something to do with the fact that for as far as I can tell most of us come from western culture countries. In western culture, freedom is the be all and end all, and taking away freedom (specially that of choice) is about the worst thing someone can possibly do.
Now Tevinter takes freedom from some of it populace, while the Qun seems to take it away from everyone. Ergo, the Qun is "worse" than Tevinter.
While I am as western in terms of freedoms as it comes, I do have an interest in cultures (fictional and non-fictional) where freedom is not one of the highest priorities. Examples of this are the Borg, or the duty and honor before freedom thing that you see in the Brothers of the Nights Watch (game of thrones) or even the Orcs in Warcraft. I'm only naming fictional ones here since I don't want to be stepping on anyones toes.
I don't think those attitudes are bad or result in cultural stagnation persé, and even if it does I still can't say with certainty that it would be a bad thing. Are our own freedom cultures so fluid, or do we also keep to traditions that when looked at it as objectively as possible might not make much sense anymore either?
I don't have the answer, don't get me wrong. I just don't think that the Qun would be better or worse than Tevinter. For me, it would be an impossible choice to make. I like my freedoms, but the Qunari seem pretty content. Would I really want to destroy them all just because they think different, or worse, would I "force" them into being free... the forcing part kinda defeats the whole freedom part.

Consequences.  Normally, I'd not force the Qunari to be free, but when they tried to take mine (not counting the freedom they already took from their own people) the consequence will be destruction.  A consequence they chose by their own actions.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Neither, because I'd rather not see another black/ thise side/that side polarizing scenario, and would actually like to see something more complex and universally grey on many fronts.

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Wait, are we really going to give Sten **** for killing one family?

The Warden and Hawke both make hundreds of thousands of orphans in each game. And sometimes they're just people doing their jobs like Templar, city guard, and the like. Other times they're completely innocent people (although those are mostly choice based). Seriously breaking into the Arl of Denerim's estate and slaughtering 40-50 men and women who are just grinding the nine to five...don't you think they have kids? Brothers and sisters?

It's the whole "Luke's a mass murderer" thing when he blows up the Death Star.

So Sten killed one family. Whoopie do. The Warden punches women and kills children (Redcliffe storyline). Hawke slaughters an entire clan of Dalish elves down to nothing but cinders and then loots their corpses.

I guess it's because those are nameless mooks, but people are quick to use the nameless mook Templars that side with Meredith as proof to side against the Templars.

The Warden and Hawke were indeed mass murderers as you said, and that's one of the reasons why I don't give Sten too much **** about murdering a family.

I mean seriously, the Warden can initiate combat with Cauthrien and her men and that leads to families losing loved ones.

Ser Cauthrien is willingly in the service of a man who betrayed and murdered his own king.  She doesn't get a lot of leeway from me.  In fact, I always kill her outside the Landsmeet chambers.  It's one of my favorite battles in all of DA.

"I was just following orders" is not, and never will be, a valid excuse or defense.  If Ser Cauthrien had admitted Loghain was wrong, and that she was wrong for following him, I'd have chosen differently.  But after that snarky speech about us being late, there was no chance she was walking out of there alive.

That said, even if you consider Cauthrien and her men as "innocent" it doesn't much matter.  Innocent people have died in every war ever fought.  That fact DOES NOT mean wars should not be fought, nor does it invalidate the cause being fought for.

Modifié par jamesp81, 22 août 2011 - 08:13 .

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I tend to play my characters as merciful almost all the time but I felt no remorse leaving Sten to die in the cage in my first and second runs of DAO. I don't think it's any less than he deserves after what he did. He even agreed.

On the third time I took him with me because I decided it was pointless to waste his in game content.

The Warden and Hawke mostly kill people in self defense.And if they don't then it's usually a clearly evil decison like wiping out the dalish clan with the werewolves. Sten murdered innocent children and their parents with his own 2 hands for no reason. After learning why he did what he did it actually made it worse. I don't see why he deserves absolution for what he did.

Key word that you used: Mostly. The Warden and Hawke can also just randomly start fighting people and that leads to many deaths. More deaths than Sten caused.

The Warden can kill Cauthrien and her men when she only wanted them to surrender. She didn't want them killed.

Hawke can kill Coterie members when he could've explained to them that he wasn't responsible for Lilley's death.

Demanding surrender is by its nature an aggressive act.  Ser Cauthrien was on the wrong side, so fighting her and her men was legitimate.

The Coterie are an even worse example, as they're an organized criminal organization.  When you make your living by lying, thieving, rape, and pillage, it's not murder when it all catches up to you in a terminal fashion.

[Urzon]

If You Side With The Qun
            Pro
1) Being able to destory the Tevinter Imperium (by far the most evil society in Thedas) once and for all.
2) Thedas will be unified, and there will be no more war between countries.
3) There will be no more poor, for everyone under the Qun has a job to do.
4) Everyone has a place in the Qun. Whether it be begger, elf, merchant, mage, warrior, or worker.

"Unity" is not a Pro.  In fact, it's a MASSIVE con.  NO ONE government or person should wield so much power.  Anyone who speaks of world unity speaks of world rule, and he is putting himself or his ideology forth as the ruler.

The Qun does not have a singular ruling government or person. While the Tamassrans manage the Qun, they do not rule it in the way you are thinking. The qunari have a quote for this...

"The brain could be said to rule the body, but so too does the heart, the lungs, the stomach. All are part of the greater whole."

The Qunari society only works with the three branches of leadership (the Arishok, the Arigene, and the Ariqun) working together smoothly. They are like a well oiled machine. They only work if all the parts and components are working together and doing their job. It is the Ariqun's job to make sure everyone knows what to do. The Arigene's job to supply the goods and fuel to keep it running, and the Arishok's job to protect it and find more "parts and components" elsewhere .

Modifié par Urzon, 22 août 2011 - 08:21 .

[Herr Uhl]

Urzon wrote...

If You Side With The Qun
            Pro
1) Being able to destory the Tevinter Imperium (by far the most evil society in Thedas) once and for all.
2) Thedas will be unified, and there will be no more war between countries.
3) There will be no more poor, for everyone under the Qun has a job to do.
4) Everyone has a place in the Qun. Whether it be begger, elf, merchant, mage, warrior, or worker.

"Unity" is not a Pro.  In fact, it's a MASSIVE con.  NO ONE government or person should wield so much power.  Anyone who speaks of world unity speaks of world rule, and he is putting himself or his ideology forth as the ruler.

The Qun does not have a singular ruling government or person. While the Tamassrans manage the Qun, they do not rule it in the way you are thinking. The qunari have a quote for this...

"The brain could be said to rule the body, but so too does the heart, the lungs, the stomach. All are part of the greater whole."

The Qunari society only works with the three branches of leadership (the Arishok, the Arigene, and the Ariqun) working together smoothly. They are like a well oiled machine. They only work is all the parts and components are working together and doing their job. It is the Ariqun's job to make sure everyone knows what to do. The Arigene's job to supply the goods and fuel to keep it running, and the Arishok's job to protect it and find more "parts and components" elsewhere .

Three branches make a government as well. Compare to the US with the supreme court, congress and president.

[Neminea]

Yet in more idealized settings in fantasy or science fiction there is a ruling body that oversees entire planets or even mutliple planets. Star Trek for one has one government that rules over the federation.

[jamesp81]

expanding panic wrote...

I'd let those two fight and destroy each other. Meanwhile I'd be gathering my own army. When the Qun/Tevinter war ended the winner would be weakened. Then I'd march in and concur who ever is reaming and then create my own utopia.

But if that's not a choice I'm siding with the Tevinter. I'll always chose freedom over Tyrany .

Well, Tevinter is a slave state.  But I will say this: there's evidence that Tevinter can be changed.  The Qun will not change, ever.

So, support Tevinter to destroy the Qunari.  After that's done, try to change Tevinter.

Both are about as bad.  With Tevinter, there is hope of something better, eventually.

[jamesp81]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Neither, because I'd rather not see another black/ thise side/that side polarizing scenario, and would actually like to see something more complex and universally grey on many fronts.

This is about as grey as it gets.  Support the mind-controlling, individuality destroying society marked by violence, or support a slave state that practices institutionalized blood magic?

[jamesp81]

Urzon wrote...

If You Side With The Qun
            Pro
1) Being able to destory the Tevinter Imperium (by far the most evil society in Thedas) once and for all.
2) Thedas will be unified, and there will be no more war between countries.
3) There will be no more poor, for everyone under the Qun has a job to do.
4) Everyone has a place in the Qun. Whether it be begger, elf, merchant, mage, warrior, or worker.

"Unity" is not a Pro.  In fact, it's a MASSIVE con.  NO ONE government or person should wield so much power.  Anyone who speaks of world unity speaks of world rule, and he is putting himself or his ideology forth as the ruler.

The Qun does not have a singular ruling government or person. While the Tamassrans manage the Qun, they do not rule it in the way you are thinking. The qunari have a quote for this...

"The brain could be said to rule the body, but so too does the heart, the lungs, the stomach. All are part of the greater whole."

The Qunari society only works with the three branches of leadership (the Arishok, the Arigene, and the Ariqun) working together smoothly. They are like a well oiled machine. They only work if all the parts and components are working together and doing their job. It is the Ariqun's job to make sure everyone knows what to do. The Arigene's job to supply the goods and fuel to keep it running, and the Arishok's job to protect it and find more "parts and components" elsewhere .

Nevertheless, those three form a government.  Allowing that ONE government to rule the world is a massively bad idea...just as it would be a bad idea to let any other one government rule.

[Urzon]

Three branches make a government as well. Compare to the US with the supreme court, congress and president.

I wouldn't describe the US government as the well-oiled machine like the Qun. If anything, i would describe the US government being the love child of the Qun and the Tevinter Imperium. Which is facinating given the nature of this thread.

Anyway...

The three branches of US goverment are meant to keep each other in line, so one doesn't get any more powerful that the other. The Qun on the otherhand strive to work together for the betterment of the Qun. While the 3 branches of the US government can sometimes work together in the same way, power plays between the democrats and the republicians usually muddle issues up, or they just bring the system down to a snail's pace. Getting nothing done at all (i.e. what is happening right now).

[jamesp81]

Neminea wrote...

Yet in more idealized settings in fantasy or science fiction there is a ruling body that oversees entire planets or even mutliple planets. Star Trek for one has one government that rules over the federation.

The Federation doesn't rule the whole galaxy.  If the Federation were to, hypothetically, turn down a dark path, you have options as they don't rule all.  You have the option to leave and live in one of the other spacefaring empires.

If the Qunari rule all of Thedas, there's no escaping them.  Universal authority is a hideously bad idea, as the only possible end result is endless civil war on a scale almost unimagineable.  It is unreasonable and immoral to try to make people live together under one governmental "roof" who don't want to live together under that roof, or have wildly different values.

The Qunari are, in fact, guilty of the greatest transgression possible.  They don't just take away freedom of choice, they will go so far as to remove a person's ability to even make any choice at all (qamek).  In this way, they are, in fact, worse than Tevinter.  Not very much worse, but a little.

[jamesp81]

Urzon wrote...

Three branches make a government as well. Compare to the US with the supreme court, congress and president.

I wouldn't describe the US government as the well-oiled machine like the Qun. If anything, i would describe the US government being the love child of the Qun and the Tevinter Imperium. Which is facinating given the nature of this thread.

Anyway...

The three branches of US goverment are meant to keep each other in line, so one doesn't get any more powerful that the other. The Qun on the otherhand strive to work together for the betterment of the Qun. While the 3 branches of the US government can sometimes work together in the same way, power plays between the democrats and the republicians usually muddle issues up, or they just bring the system down to a snail's pace. Getting nothing done at all (i.e. what is happening right now).

Which is exactly how the system was intended to work.  It was believed by the founders that best results would be produced if the system made it very hard to get anything done.  This ensures when quick action does occur, the reasons are very damned good.  Otherwise, the slowness of the process prevents rash action.  The division of powers also assures that no one person or group has too much authority.

This has nothing to do with the thread, however.  We're contemplating the Qun being the only government for all of Thedas.  That is really, really bad.  No one government, regardless of its composition, should wield that much power.

[Neminea]

So does the chantry with the mages.
In any case, I don't see unity as the great evil you apparantly do. I think unity is something to work towards. Not saying that the Qun's way is right, but I can't say its wrong because they want unity.
The federation for example wouldnt get on a dark path, because it's so idealized allready, and if it did, those other empires would probably be conquered at some point. Let's just agree to disagree on that the unity thing.

[Herr Uhl]

Urzon wrote...

Three branches make a government as well. Compare to the US with the supreme court, congress and president.

I wouldn't describe the US government as the well-oiled machine like the Qun. If anything, i would describe the US government being the love child of the Qun and the Tevinter Imperium. Which is facinating given the nature of this thread.

Anyway...

The three branches of US goverment are meant to keep each other in line, so one doesn't get any more powerful that the other. The Qun on the otherhand strive to work together for the betterment of the Qun. While the 3 branches of the US government can sometimes work together in the same way, power plays between the democrats and the republicians usually muddle issues up, or they just bring the system down to a snail's pace. Getting nothing done at all (i.e. what is happening right now).

I was disputing your claim that it wasn't a government because it had three branches. The Qun is a singular government as much as USA is one.

[jamesp81]

Neminea wrote...

So does the chantry with the mages.
In any case, I don't see unity as the great evil you apparantly do. I think unity is something to work towards. Not saying that the Qun's way is right, but I can't say its wrong because they want unity.
The federation for example wouldnt get on a dark path, because it's so idealized allready, and if it did, those other empires would probably be conquered at some point. Let's just agree to disagree on that the unity thing.

The Federation is composed of imperfect men with imperfect thoughts and desires.  Governments founded by men are, by default, capable of the same depravity as the men who are part of it.

Unity is a nice word for control.  Anyone who comes along promoting unity means to rule by his definition of it.  Too much power in one person or group is always a bad thing and always has been.

Separated polities by their very existence force governments to behave better than they otherwise might.  Doesn't mean they'll be good, but it does mean there's always a chance that they might be made to answer for their actions.  The very threat of that happening curbs a lot of excesses.

Modifié par jamesp81, 22 août 2011 - 09:14 .

[Deviana]

Wow, this is a choice between bad and well, bad.  But if I absolutely had to chose, it would be Tevinter. There's always a chance to rise through the ranks, become the ruler of Tevinter Empire, abolish slavery and blood magic, drive all the demons away, fix the veil and bring world peace and happiness to everyone. Yep, I'm going with that scenario, regardless of whether it'll be in a game.

[Urzon]

jamesp81 wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Three branches make a government as well. Compare to the US with the supreme court, congress and president.

I wouldn't describe the US government as the well-oiled machine like the Qun. If anything, i would describe the US government being the love child of the Qun and the Tevinter Imperium. Which is facinating given the nature of this thread.

Anyway...

The three branches of US goverment are meant to keep each other in line, so one doesn't get any more powerful that the other. The Qun on the otherhand strive to work together for the betterment of the Qun. While the 3 branches of the US government can sometimes work together in the same way, power plays between the democrats and the republicians usually muddle issues up, or they just bring the system down to a snail's pace. Getting nothing done at all (i.e. what is happening right now).

Which is exactly how the system was intended to work.  It was believed by the founders that best results would be produced if the system made it very hard to get anything done.  This ensures when quick action does occur, the reasons are very damned good.  Otherwise, the slowness of the process prevents rash action.  The division of powers also assures that no one person or group has too much authority.

This has nothing to do with the thread, however.  We're contemplating the Qun being the only government for all of Thedas.  That is really, really bad.  No one government, regardless of its composition, should wield that much power.

Yet it is only threw a large stable government can humans ever seem to achieve peace. If we didn't have them, there would still be kings and nobles killing each other and the innocent common man over territory and power.

Yes, i know what you are going to say. "No one government should wield that much power." That is why power is dispersed. To use the US government as an example again. Federal>State>district>county>city so on and so fourth.

Can you imagine where the US would be in they didn't conquer (yes, i went there) most of North American and place their government and religion across the land? While it might have cooled down now, we still might have tensions with a state of Native Americans. Not to mention, even higher tensions with Mexico. Since we didn't conquer most of the west half of North American, they would still own area.

[jamesp81]

Urzon wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Three branches make a government as well. Compare to the US with the supreme court, congress and president.

I wouldn't describe the US government as the well-oiled machine like the Qun. If anything, i would describe the US government being the love child of the Qun and the Tevinter Imperium. Which is facinating given the nature of this thread.

Anyway...

The three branches of US goverment are meant to keep each other in line, so one doesn't get any more powerful that the other. The Qun on the otherhand strive to work together for the betterment of the Qun. While the 3 branches of the US government can sometimes work together in the same way, power plays between the democrats and the republicians usually muddle issues up, or they just bring the system down to a snail's pace. Getting nothing done at all (i.e. what is happening right now).

Which is exactly how the system was intended to work.  It was believed by the founders that best results would be produced if the system made it very hard to get anything done.  This ensures when quick action does occur, the reasons are very damned good.  Otherwise, the slowness of the process prevents rash action.  The division of powers also assures that no one person or group has too much authority.

This has nothing to do with the thread, however.  We're contemplating the Qun being the only government for all of Thedas.  That is really, really bad.  No one government, regardless of its composition, should wield that much power.

Yet it is only threw a large stable government can humans ever seem to achieve peace. If we didn't have them, there would still be kings and nobles killing each other and the innocent common man over territory and power.

Yes, i know what you are going to say. "No one government should wield that much power." That is why power is dispersed. To use the US government as an example again. Federal>State>district>county>city so on and so fourth.

Can you imagine where the US would be in they didn't conquer (yes, i went there) most of North American and place their government and religion across the land? While it might have cooled down now, we still might have tensions with a state of Native Americans. Not to mention, even higher tensions with Mexico. Since we didn't conquer most of the west half of North American, they would still own area.

There is no possible way to know with any certainty how history would've been different.

It's also not relevant.  In history, the US conquered much of North America.  The US didn't conquer the whole earth.  That's a critically important distinction.

This has nothing to do with the structure of any given government.  It has to do with allowing any one government to control too much of the world as we know it.

[Urzon]

There is no possible way to know with any certainty how history would've been different.

It's also not relevant.  In history, the US conquered much of North America.  The US didn't conquer the whole earth.  That's a critically important distinction.

This has nothing to do with the structure of any given government.  It has to do with allowing any one government to control too much of the world as we know it.

Where did i ever say the Qun was conquering the whole world in this speculation? I said the Qun was going to try and conquer Thedas. Thedas is not the whole world. It is a continent. Hence, that was why i was using the US and their conquering of North America as an example.

[jamesp81]

Urzon wrote...

There is no possible way to know with any certainty how history would've been different.

It's also not relevant.  In history, the US conquered much of North America.  The US didn't conquer the whole earth.  That's a critically important distinction.

This has nothing to do with the structure of any given government.  It has to do with allowing any one government to control too much of the world as we know it.

Where did i ever say the Qun was conquering the whole world in this speculation? I said the Qun was going to try and conquer Thedas. Thedas is not the whole world. It is a continent. Hence, that was why i was using the US and their conquering of North America as an example.

OK, I was under the impression Thedas was everything.

Although, in a sense it is.  It encompasses the entire known world, at least from the player's standpoint.

So I'm still siding with the nasty blood mages against the nasty horned guys.

[Darius Vir]

Tevinter is, at least, the evil you know. It's broke and evil and twisted, but it's within the realm of expectations. You could forsee some version of what is Tevinter changing into something (relatively) more amiable.

The Qunari are something far more bizarre, and frightening. By their very nature as followers of the Qun, they cannot change or compromise. Clearly the greater existential threat.

[jamesp81]

Neminea wrote...

I'm not sure that the Qunari don't have a decent society to begin with, at least everyone has a place there. I doubt they let anyone starve to death, or beat people for the enjoyment of it, or kill amongst themselves.

The Tal-Vashoth would like to have a word with you.