252 réponses à ce sujet

[Neminea]

Tal'Vashoth killing people of the Qun doesn't count as killing amonst themselves since they are no longer part of the Qun. Even in the most idealized settings or societies there will be people unhappy or complaining, doesn't mean that they are right.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In regards to choosing which is better, neither side is ideal for Thedas obviously, but Qunari society strikes me as being better for more of it's people by far. They are however also a much greater threat to the other human nations. The Andrastian are freer than either the Tevinter Imperium or the Qunari.

If forced to chose between them: On the basis of which is the lesser of two evils to live in, then I'd side with the Qunari. On the basis of protecting the freedoms that already exist, then I'd side with Tevinter. But I don't think the Tevinter Imperium would be the greatest problem the Qunari faced if they decided to invade.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 août 2011 - 06:28 .

[dragonflight288]

I'd probably just go to the Kokari Wilds and hang out with the Chasind there, build an army under my banner, and attack after both sides spend themselves in the war.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Chasind are literally on the very opposite side of the known world, they'd probably need some pretty good motivation to march that far away.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 août 2011 - 06:32 .

[jamesp81]

Neminea wrote...

Tal'Vashoth killing people of the Qun doesn't count as killing amonst themselves since they are no longer part of the Qun. Even in the most idealized settings or societies there will be people unhappy or complaining, doesn't mean that they are right.

There's nothing "ideal" about the Qun.

[dragonflight288]

The Chasind are literally on the very opposite side of the known world, they'd probably need some pretty good motivation to march that far away.

I know. That's why I would have plenty of time. lol.

[Neminea]

jamesp81 wrote...

Neminea wrote...

Tal'Vashoth killing people of the Qun doesn't count as killing amonst themselves since they are no longer part of the Qun. Even in the most idealized settings or societies there will be people unhappy or complaining, doesn't mean that they are right.

There's nothing "ideal" about the Qun.

A society where everyone, even the lowest have a place, are needed and respected in their own way. One where there is certainty instead of doubt, where all work towards a common goal. Where non are allowed to be wasted, or starve. Where there is no rape as apparantly sex holds no meaning outside of breeding.

It may not be your way, but that doesn't mean it is not ideal to others.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

jamesp81 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Neither, because I'd rather not see another black/ thise side/that side polarizing scenario, and would actually like to see something more complex and universally grey on many fronts.

This is about as grey as it gets.  Support the mind-controlling, individuality destroying society marked by violence, or support a slave state that practices institutionalized blood magic?

Neither the Qunari nor the Tevinter are as simple as that. And it's still a simplistic, polarizing scenario for a game plot, because you're stuck between choosing option a or b. I'd like something beyond simply picking a side, I'd rather see a more complex scenario that doesn't involve definittively throwing your lot in with one group of idiots or another.

[Todd23]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Neither, because I'd rather not see another black/ thise side/that side polarizing scenario, and would actually like to see something more complex and universally grey on many fronts.

This is about as grey as it gets.  Support the mind-controlling, individuality destroying society marked by violence, or support a slave state that practices institutionalized blood magic?

Neither the Qunari nor the Tevinter are as simple as that. And it's still a simplistic, polarizing scenario for a game plot, because you're stuck between choosing option a or b. I'd like something beyond simply picking a side, I'd rather see a more complex scenario that doesn't involve definittively throwing your lot in with one group of idiots or another.

:ph34r:And why not?  Why can't you through your lot in with the lesser of evils and try to change the displeasing parts of your own choice from the inside?  Like Republicans vs. Democrats.  I feel rather then wipe out the side I don't prefer, I'd like to fight against the one I do prefer.  I'd like to lead a rebelion against Tevinter, killing blood mages and slavers.  While people may see this as attacking the place I love, I see it more as saving it.

[Foolsfolly]

"I was just following orders" is not, and never will be, a valid excuse or defense.

That's a bit harsh, isn't it? Humans aren't as upstanding and strong willed as most individuals would like to believe. The easiest example to point to is the Milgram Experiment.

In that experiment people would shock other people (not really, they were actors) despite their moral code not to, the victims begging for them, and then even after the victim had passed out or died from their shocks.

Cauthrien is divided she doesn't believe in what Loghain is doing (talk to her some and see). She's just doing her duty and following a great strategic mind and living legend who helped earn their freedom from Orlais.

While I've role-played people who find no excuse in this, my personal belief is that I have no ill feelings towards her. To me, "I was just following orders" carries some weight. People aren't superheroes. They're weak and easily influenced.

[jamesp81]

Neminea wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Neminea wrote...

Tal'Vashoth killing people of the Qun doesn't count as killing amonst themselves since they are no longer part of the Qun. Even in the most idealized settings or societies there will be people unhappy or complaining, doesn't mean that they are right.

There's nothing "ideal" about the Qun.

A society where everyone, even the lowest have a place, are needed and respected in their own way. One where there is certainty instead of doubt, where all work towards a common goal. Where non are allowed to be wasted, or starve. Where there is no rape as apparantly sex holds no meaning outside of breeding.

It may not be your way, but that doesn't mean it is not ideal to others.

It is a system that is designed to suppress individuality.  For this reason alone, it is profoundly evil, and waging war against it is justified on this basis alone.  That other stuff is inconsequential next to this one thing.

[jamesp81]

Foolsfolly wrote...

"I was just following orders" is not, and never will be, a valid excuse or defense.

That's a bit harsh, isn't it? Humans aren't as upstanding and strong willed as most individuals would like to believe. The easiest example to point to is the Milgram Experiment.

In that experiment people would shock other people (not really, they were actors) despite their moral code not to, the victims begging for them, and then even after the victim had passed out or died from their shocks.

Cauthrien is divided she doesn't believe in what Loghain is doing (talk to her some and see). She's just doing her duty and following a great strategic mind and living legend who helped earn their freedom from Orlais.

While I've role-played people who find no excuse in this, my personal belief is that I have no ill feelings towards her. To me, "I was just following orders" carries some weight. People aren't superheroes. They're weak and easily influenced.

Then they don't need to be wielding power or arms for those that might easily manipulate them.

A person is responsible for his/her actions, period, full stop.  Weakness is not an excuse for that.

The Milgram Experiment is indeed disturbing and a sad commentary on a large section of humanity.  It changes nothing other than to inform people what they might be dealing with.  You are always responsible for the things you do.

[Neminea]

Again, just because the western world values individuality doesnt mean that those cultures who don't or to a lesser degree are evil. There are many non western cultures where the needs of a family unit outweighs the need of any of the individual within that family.

Good and evil are relative terms, but if you look up evil in a dictionairy chances are you will not see "takes away someones individuality" as one of its definitions. It does have "morally bad or wrong" as one, but again just because it's not your way doesn't mean it shouldn't be everybody elses way.

[Rifneno]

Neminea wrote...

Again, just because the western world values individuality doesnt mean that those cultures who don't or to a lesser degree are evil. There are many non western cultures where the needs of a family unit outweighs the need of any of the individual within that family.

Good and evil are relative terms, but if you look up evil in a dictionairy chances are you will not see "takes away someones individuality" as one of its definitions. It does have "morally bad or wrong" as one, but again just because it's not your way doesn't mean it shouldn't be everybody elses way.

Which is exactly why the Qun is evil: because they firmly believe their way is the only way. They think it's not only their right but perhaps even their obligation to "educate" the "ignorant." If they aren't stopped, eventually they will force their beliefs on everyone else by simply killing everyone who does value individuality.

[Ghost1041]

^ I'm with this guy. Sure Tevinter is a slave nation but so are the other nations just with mages. They are the only thing standing between the world and the Borg Qunari. Convert or die resistance is futile. The Archon can't do it alone help the magister lords and enlist today!

[Neminea]

@ Rifn
Agreed on that, and if/when they do come to invade it would be within everybodies rights to resist and fight.
The whole thing just irks me because I get the feeling people think they are evil because they think differently on things that in the western world are concidered human rights and "good" when I think that if you want them eradicated for that you are no better than them.

Modifié par Neminea, 26 août 2011 - 11:22 .

[Ghost1041]

Neminea wrote...

@ Rifn
Agreed on that, and if/when they do come to invade it would be within everybodies rights to resist and fight.
The whole thing just irks me because I get the feeling people think they are evil because they think differently on things that in the western world are concidered human rights and "good" when I think that if you want them eradicated for that you are no better than them.

What? Would you try the "lets talk this out" button with people believing its their duty to bash opression in your head? They won't stop til they have satisfied the Qun or die trying. They must be eradicated!

Sorry rping the Tevinter mindset not really arguing lol.

Modifié par Ghost1041, 26 août 2011 - 11:28 .

[Neminea]

As has been said before, I do not see them doing that. For the moment, they seem mostly content with staying where they are and fighting tevinter. They were only in Kirkwall because Isabela stole their blighted "bible". Yes, the danger with a society that is so certain of it's.. I don't know what else to call it.. "divine right" to do things their way is that they might start spreading the word unwanted to other nations. I can't however, hate them for having their own culture and believes, even if I don't agree with them.
What I was talking about is that I do not think them evil based on what they believe persé, and I was trying to point out the "shades of grey" the good things that their culture has.
I think everyone that tries to enforce their believes onto another is being a bit of a jerk, to put it lightly. It works both ways though, if they can't go around forcing people into their believes, we (as in anyone not of the Qun) can't do it to them either.
That is just how I think though, I prefer to be as tolerant of other believes as I can be, even if they might not make sense to me at first.

[Xilizhra]

Oh, I will hate them for having their own culture and beliefs, when it involves horrific torture of mages, idiotic sex segregation, and destroying the minds of those who resist too much.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, I will hate them for having their own culture and beliefs, when it involves horrific torture of mages, idiotic sex segregation, and destroying the minds of those who resist too much.

This.

[Neminea]

This is where I or someone else will point out that thats the way they want to live. The Sarebaas you take with you in Sheparding wolves kills himself if you don't give him back, the sexual roles are important to them (and even after 50 or so years of emancipation, still exist in our own "free" world as well, not to mention other irl cultures) and do not suggest that one is better than the other and since this is a Qun vs Tevinter thread the mindless slaves may be better then the non mindless ones. At least the mindless ones don't suffer as they do. Then the good things about the Qunari will be pointed out and we have come full circle right back to where we started.

I don't believe those examples are "good" but I do not think in black and white when it comes to entire cultures or believe systems and I can't personally condamn them for the bads without taking the good into account, specially not in a setting where just about every culture seems heavily two-sided, and I do not believe in hating an entire culture and by proxy everyone who willingly follows the ideals of said culture.
It irks me a bit that I see people being so black and white about it (partly because I see paralels between the Qun and irl cultures, though I realise others see it as a completely seperate thing), but I guess there is nothing left to do but agree to disagree.

[Xilizhra]

This is where I or someone else will point out that thats the way they want to live. The Sarebaas you take with you in Sheparding wolves kills himself if you don't give him back

Inapplicable, and I'll tell you why. It seems to me very similar to clinical depression, something I'm intimately familiar with. When you're depressed, it's very common for you to not really want to leave it, or to feel that it's the only way to exist, and to resist any attempt to leave it. The Saarebas conditioning is a lot like this, right down to the suicide.

the sexual roles are important to them (and even after 50 or so years of emancipation, still exist in our own "free" world as well, not to mention other irl cultures)

The fact that they still exist in our own society isn't a good thing either.

I don't believe those examples are "good" but I do not think in black and white when it comes to entire cultures or believe systems and I can't personally condamn them for the bads without taking the good into account, specially not in a setting where just about every culture seems heavily two-sided, and I do not believe in hating an entire culture and by proxy everyone who willingly follows the ideals of said culture.

Worthy of note, but siding with Tevinter involves defending everyone else as well.

It irks me a bit that I see people being so black and white about it (partly because I see paralels between the Qun and irl cultures, though I realise others see it as a completely seperate thing), but I guess there is nothing left to do but agree to disagree.

I'll say exactly the same things about IRL cultures if they're similarly vile.

[Neminea]

Xilizhra wrote...

It irks me a bit that I see people being so black and white about it (partly because I see paralels between the Qun and irl cultures, though I realise others see it as a completely seperate thing), but I guess there is nothing left to do but agree to disagree.

I'll say exactly the same things about IRL cultures if they're similarly vile.

Not going there, I'm out.

[Xilizhra]

It's not collectivism I have a problem with in and of itself, it's ritualized abuse. And it does happen fairly frequently in IRL cultures, including our own on occasion. I hate it everywhere.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, I will hate them for having their own culture and beliefs, when it involves horrific torture of mages, idiotic sex segregation, and destroying the minds of those who resist too much.

Just like they will hate or pity you for what they percieve as idiotic ideas, a sick society and horrific values.

To me, both stances are as petty.