20 réponses à ce sujet

[gandanlin]

I have noticed as I play through Orzammer that some of the dwarves in the Assembly chamber carry magic staves.  When the Warden supports Harrowmont, he is rewarded with Harrowmont's staff (but not a very good one, alas).

I sometimes wonder why these dwarves carry magic staves.  Dwarves cannot cast spells, so the staves would be useless in battle -- aside from maybe being used as clubs.

Is there some explanation for this?  What use do dwarves have for magic staves? 

Modifié par gandanlin, 17 août 2011 - 09:44 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Might be a ceremonial thing. Or it could function as a walking stick.

[thats1evildude]

The dwarfs in the Assembly carry regular staves. What gave you the idea that they're magic?

Also, the magic staff that Harrowmont gives you was a gift from a noble-hunter who got it from a mage. Harrowmont used it as a backscratcher.

[gandanlin]

thats1evildude wrote...

The dwarfs in the Assembly carry regular staves. What gave you the idea that they're magic?

I'd never seen or heard of any other kind of staff except the magic kind.  Can you give me an example of a "regular" (by which I take it you mean non-magical) staff appearing anywhere else in Orzammer or even Ferelden? 

...anyway...

I can sort of understand the idea of the staves being an item of ceremonial regalia or emblem of political office.   It is just that Orzammer is a sort of closed-off place that differs culturally from the rest of Ferelden.  It would make more sense for the staff to be instead an item reflective of dwarven culture -- perhaps a ceremonial maul or axe. 
It is difficult to believe that a staff, which is so strongly identified with mages and magic, would come to be the emblem of office in the Assembly.  It requires some explanation.

Dwarves are proud folk and show themselves to be very resistant to outside influence -- as witness the Shaperate's unwillingness to have the Chantry preaching in Orzammer.   Now had there been some historic pact between the Circle of Magi and Orzammer --  perhaps related to lyrium trade and which would provide an explanation of the staff in dwarven culture -- that would fit truer with the DA:O mythos.

 

[tmp7704]

gandanlin wrote...

It would make more sense for the staff to be instead an item reflective of dwarven culture -- perhaps a ceremonial maul or axe. 
It is difficult to believe that a staff, which is so strongly identified with mages and magic, would come to be the emblem of office in the Assembly.  It requires some explanation.
 

You sort of answer your own question here -- since the dwarves aren't connected to the world outside, and they lack magic... there is no reason to believe the staff carries to them the same cultural meaning it does in the surface world.

It's quite possible to the dwarves who never venture outside and hardly ever see any mages (if at all) for their entire life, the staff is associated mainly with being a member of the Shaperate. As for why it'd be a staff... maybe precisely because it's not a maul or an axe, like every second dwarf carries around. It does good job making these few dwarves stand out.

[gandanlin]

tmp7704 wrote...

It's quite possible to the dwarves who never venture outside and hardly ever see any mages (if at all) for their entire life, the staff is associated mainly with being a member of the Shaperate. As for why it'd be a staff... maybe precisely because it's not a maul or an axe, like every second dwarf carries around. It does good job making these few dwarves stand out.

If they never venture outside, they likely would never have seen a staff.

It would also point out that I said ceremonial mace or axe.  In other words, an ordinary object made into something symbolizing political office instead of warfare.

[thats1evildude]

Apply Occam's Razor here. Is the likeliest possibility that the dwarven lords are carrying around magical staves that they cannot use? Or is it more probable that those staves are non-magical, and are simply a badge of office or a ceremonial item?

gandanlin wrote...

I'd never seen or heard of any other kind of staff except the magic kind.  Can you give me an example of a "regular" (by which I take it you mean non-magical) staff appearing anywhere else in Orzammer or even Ferelden?

Well, if the staves in the Assembly are non-magical, then that's my example.

But other than that, no, I haven't seen any other non-magical staves. There aren't any characters who would need a non-magical staff or a walking stick due to age or physical disability.

That said, just because I don't see them anywhere doesn't mean they don't exist. You never see anyone eat food, but I know that they do.

gandanlin wrote...

I can sort of understand the idea of the staves being an item of ceremonial regalia or emblem of political office.   It is just that Orzammer is a sort of closed-off place that differs culturally from the rest of Ferelden.  It would make more sense for the staff to be instead an item reflective of dwarven culture -- perhaps a ceremonial maul or axe.

I got the impression that the deschers are not allowed to bring weapons into the Assembly. Certainly everyone seems surprised by the fact that Bhelen's supporters are carrying them when he attempts his coup, and none of the deschers who fight with Harrowmont have weapons. The guards do, but they're guards.

This is probably because dwarven politics are such a cutthroat affair that there's a strong possibility the assembled lords would slaughter each other during a heated debate. And yes, ceremonial blades can still be used to kill. Beating someone to death with a staff is a little trickier, however, especially if they got a staff of their own.

gandanlin wrote...

Dwarves are proud folk and show themselves to be very resistant to outside influence -- as witness the Shaperate's unwillingness to have the Chantry preaching in Orzammer.   Now had there been some historic pact between the Circle of Magi and Orzammer --  perhaps related to lyrium trade and which would provide an explanation of the staff in dwarven culture -- that would fit truer with the DA:O mythos. 

There actually was, though it wasn't the Circle of Magi. The dwarves were once allied with the Tevinter Imperium and traded with them frequently before the First Blight. In fact, the Witch Hunt DLC details how the dwarves once destroyed one of their own thaigs for harboring elven refugees, so as not to jeopardize their alliance with the Imperium.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 19 août 2011 - 07:04 .

[tmp7704]

gandanlin wrote...

If they never venture outside, they likely would never have seen a staff.

It's not like a staff is some intricate design that can only be invented in one place in the entire world and then has to be copied from there. It's after all simply a walking stick first and foremost. And that's precisely how it came to exist in our own world, even though we have no mages who would need one.

[Corker]

"It looks weird having all these dwarves just standing in the Assembly. It's like they're on a shelf at the toy store or something."

"What if they're holding something, like a staff of office?"

"Oh, and then they could do something cool with them, like... beat the floor while the king is being crowned!"

"Awesome! We need a dwarven staff."

"lolwut release date is when? Is there any reason you can't use one of the staff models we already have?"

"Those are magic staves!"

"And now they're non-magic staves, too. The design team has enough Orzammar-specific models to create already. Cope."

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Have you read the description for Harrowmont's staff?

This staff came into the possession of Clan Harrowmont circuitously, inherited from a noble-hunter who had been given the staff by a grateful human mage for services unknown. It spent a time as a backscratcher.

So yes, Harrowmont's staff is magic. Doesn't mean any other staff we see carried by dwarves have the same attributes (unless you've happened to loot one?).

[gandanlin]

Regardless of any other use to which a staff might be put, one would hope for a compelling reason to explain its presence in the Orzammer Assembly. At the outset I'm going to exclude the explanation that runs something like: "Harrowmont was given a magic staff that he used to scratch his back and so all the other assembly members ran off and got themselves a staff, too." That explanation seems a tad lame.

Even the explanation that the staves came into use because of the lyrium trade somehow rings false. Even if a staff had been given by the mages to the dwarves to honor some sort of trade agreement, I doubt that many dwarves would suddenly feel a need to carry one around the assembly just because of that.

I suppose I will just have to keep continue wondering. But thanks to all for offering the many possible explanations.
Perhaps they just need something to lean on as they discuss those weighty issues of Orzammer politics.

[Wulfram]

Doesn't one of the assembly members refer to his family mace during the debate you see when you go there first? I thought that was what the staves were.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

gandanlin wrote...

Regardless of any other use to which a staff might be put, one would hope for a compelling reason to explain its presence in the Orzammer Assembly. At the outset I'm going to exclude the explanation that runs something like: "Harrowmont was given a magic staff that he used to scratch his back and so all the other assembly members ran off and got themselves a staff, too." That explanation seems a tad lame.

Er...that Harrowmont inherited that staff  which was originally given some dwarf (not him) by a mage and he used it as a backscratch is the official explanation for his staff being a mage staff. If you think it's lame, blame Bioware.

That doesn't mean all the other dwarves have magic staffs, even if they look similar aesthetically. They dealt with Tevinter at its peak ages ago, and the magisters all wielded staffs. Maybe the dwarves adopted the use of (non-magic) staffs to show a position of authority. Tall and elaborate staffs were definitely not uncommon as symbols of office or power IRL.

Edit: Hey, I think saying that a noble hunter was the original owner, given it for 'reasons unknown', could make for a pretty neat story.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 19 août 2011 - 11:15 .

[Last Darkness]

People trying to incorectly relate to dwarven society strikes again.

Heres a hint...how often do you see Wood?

[gandanlin]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Er...that Harrowmont inherited that staff  which was originally given some dwarf (not him) by a mage and he used it as a backscratch is the official explanation for his staff being a mage staff. If you think it's lame, blame Bioware.

That doesn't mean all the other dwarves have magic staffs, even if they look similar aesthetically. They dealt with Tevinter at its peak ages ago, and the magisters all wielded staffs. Maybe the dwarves adopted the use of (non-magic) staffs to show a position of authority. Tall and elaborate staffs were definitely not uncommon as symbols of office or power IRL.

Edit: Hey, I think saying that a noble hunter was the original owner, given it for 'reasons unknown', could make for a pretty neat story.

I am not looking for anyone to blame.  I am looking for a reasonable explanation of why many of the dwarves in the Assembly carry staves.  I apologize if I muddled the question with a reference to "magic."  I  assumed that all staves in Ferelden were magical. 

The argument that Assembly staves are non-magical itself is debatable, since it makes those staves unlike any other that can be found in Ferelden.  Suggesting that the staves are of Tevinter origin tends to support the idea that the staves are magical.  However, it matters very little to me if the staves are magic or not.  The question should have been, why do they have staves at all?

Some parliaments will have a ceremonial mace or similar object that is carried in at the beginning of each new session.  It certainly seems reasonable for dwarves to have some item of ceremonial regalia, some item that signifies their offical status.  I just have trouble accepting it should be a staff.

And that is my problem.  No-one else's. 

So apologies all round.    

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Last Darkness wrote...

People trying to incorectly relate to dwarven society strikes again.

Heres a hint...how often do you see Wood?

If you mean wood as in lumber, what's your point? The staffs have to be wooden?

gandanlin wrote...

Some parliaments will have a ceremonial mace or similar object that is carried in at the beginning of each new session. It certainly seems reasonable for dwarves to have some item of ceremonial regalia, some item that signifies their offical status. I just have trouble accepting it should be a staff.

No apologies necessary. Maybe Bioware just didn't want to go for the standard warlike axes or hammers are dwarven regalia thing.

Or maybe staffs were the only items that worked with 'thump ground with equipped item' animation during the coronation, which is more likely.

Edit: In the game, all staffs we can buy or find are magical. However, realistically anyone could have a non-magical staff or cudgel for walking/defense. We never see non-magical staffs because they never existed as a melee weapon, but that doesn't mean such items don't exist.

Edit 2: Maybe the Tevinter mages stole the staff idea from the dwarves a thousand years ago. Apparently the common/Fereldan tongue was originally a trade language courtesy of the dwarves.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 21 août 2011 - 02:17 .

[Last Darkness]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

People trying to incorectly relate to dwarven society strikes again.

Heres a hint...how often do you see Wood?

If you mean wood as in lumber, what's your point? The staffs have to be wooden?

Well I never figured id have to explain the fact that a xenophobic society that exists under ground might not grow trees down there and as such wood would be something of a rare commodity.

But you do make a point, theres nothing saying they are not made of other materials as far as we know.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 21 août 2011 - 02:50 .

[tyrannosaur56]

could that staff you mentioned just merely a sceptor??? sceptor and stuff can look quite alike you know..

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@Last Darkness - The dwarves were never really xenophobic* as far as I know? They traded with the Imperium for hundreds of years, and the elves long before humans ever showed up. One thaig even sheltered the elves when the Imperium crushed Arlathan. They may have a disinclination to go to the surface, but there's plenty of lore about outsiders traveling into the dwarven lands and being honoured or accepted or whatnot.

*Edit: I'm not sure how Harrowmont's reforms that make the dwarven lands more reclusive are traditional, looking at their history.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 22 août 2011 - 12:29 .

[gneisenau556]

In response to the wood comment aren't staves made out metal anyway? Harrowmont's was steel.

[gandanlin]

Some staves are made of other materials: red steel, veridium, and so on. But the staves of the Assembly have the same appearance as any other staff.

I was thinking that I would probably be asking the same questions if I saw the mages in the Circle Tower wandering about with axes, possibly of dwarven make, when they held a meeting to discuss their internal affairs. I'd want to know why.

I suppose mages and dwarves can do as they please, but it raises questions about why they are doing it.