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#251
IanPolaris

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Ariella wrote...

When did accessablity become a by-word for "action" or "speed" in a game? I'm talking about things that make it easier to get into, what I consider the most important part of ANY rpg: the story. If mechanics bog a story down, then they aren't working.


If the style of the game precludes an actual story that the character can interact with (rather than be a drooling bystander like Hawke seems to be much of the time), then it isn't working either at least from an RP perspective.

-Polaris

#252
Ariella

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Regardless of your gaming resume, which I really couldn't care less about. Calling DA2's side quests better for the sake that they have even less depth than Origins, just comes off as kinda insulting imo.

At least with Origins and past titles your choices superfurflous or not, at least gave the illusion of choices mattering, which is kinda what RPG's are about, or used to be anyway.


Did you play the same game I did? Because Hawke's choices lead him or her to that final battle, and if you're playing your choices up to that point, the end game choice is logical because of how you played.

I don't see where Sheparding the Wolves, Gamlen's Greatest Treasure or Night Terrors are of less depth than the Speciel Delivery for K quests.

#253
IanPolaris

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Ariella wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Regardless of your gaming resume, which I really couldn't care less about. Calling DA2's side quests better for the sake that they have even less depth than Origins, just comes off as kinda insulting imo.

At least with Origins and past titles your choices superfurflous or not, at least gave the illusion of choices mattering, which is kinda what RPG's are about, or used to be anyway.


Did you play the same game I did? Because Hawke's choices lead him or her to that final battle, and if you're playing your choices up to that point, the end game choice is logical because of how you played.

I don't see where Sheparding the Wolves, Gamlen's Greatest Treasure or Night Terrors are of less depth than the Speciel Delivery for K quests.


Sheparding Wolves was not a sidequest.

-Polaris

#254
Ariella

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IanPolaris wrote...

Ariella wrote...

When did accessablity become a by-word for "action" or "speed" in a game? I'm talking about things that make it easier to get into, what I consider the most important part of ANY rpg: the story. If mechanics bog a story down, then they aren't working.


If the style of the game precludes an actual story that the character can interact with (rather than be a drooling bystander like Hawke seems to be much of the time), then it isn't working either at least from an RP perspective.

-Polaris


Again it seems you got a different version of the game than I did, because my Hawke made friends, influenced people all based on my choices.

#255
IanPolaris

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Ariella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Ariella wrote...

When did accessablity become a by-word for "action" or "speed" in a game? I'm talking about things that make it easier to get into, what I consider the most important part of ANY rpg: the story. If mechanics bog a story down, then they aren't working.


If the style of the game precludes an actual story that the character can interact with (rather than be a drooling bystander like Hawke seems to be much of the time), then it isn't working either at least from an RP perspective.

-Polaris


Again it seems you got a different version of the game than I did, because my Hawke made friends, influenced people all based on my choices.


I give you Act III as a counterpoint to all that.  Hawke is worthless.

-Polaris

#256
Ariella

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IanPolaris wrote...

Ariella wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Regardless of your gaming resume, which I really couldn't care less about. Calling DA2's side quests better for the sake that they have even less depth than Origins, just comes off as kinda insulting imo.

At least with Origins and past titles your choices superfurflous or not, at least gave the illusion of choices mattering, which is kinda what RPG's are about, or used to be anyway.


Did you play the same game I did? Because Hawke's choices lead him or her to that final battle, and if you're playing your choices up to that point, the end game choice is logical because of how you played.

I don't see where Sheparding the Wolves, Gamlen's Greatest Treasure or Night Terrors are of less depth than the Speciel Delivery for K quests.


Sheparding Wolves was not a sidequest.

-Polaris


It's called a secondary quest. In my book that's another name for sidequest.

#257
Morroian

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IanPolaris wrote...

Ariella wrote...

When did accessablity become a by-word for "action" or "speed" in a game? I'm talking about things that make it easier to get into, what I consider the most important part of ANY rpg: the story. If mechanics bog a story down, then they aren't working.


If the style of the game precludes an actual story that the character can interact with (rather than be a drooling bystander like Hawke seems to be much of the time), then it isn't working either at least from an RP perspective.


Except there was plenty of interaction with elements within the game, OK its not exactly the type of interaction you want but that doesn't mean its missing or that the game doesn't allow role playing, it clearly does, there are those of us who had a better role playing experience with DA2 than with DAO.

#258
Ariella

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IanPolaris wrote...

Ariella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Ariella wrote...

When did accessablity become a by-word for "action" or "speed" in a game? I'm talking about things that make it easier to get into, what I consider the most important part of ANY rpg: the story. If mechanics bog a story down, then they aren't working.


If the style of the game precludes an actual story that the character can interact with (rather than be a drooling bystander like Hawke seems to be much of the time), then it isn't working either at least from an RP perspective.

-Polaris


Again it seems you got a different version of the game than I did, because my Hawke made friends, influenced people all based on my choices.


I give you Act III as a counterpoint to all that.  Hawke is worthless.

-Polaris


Your opinion, and I don't see anything that discounts acty 3 in what I said, Ian. Hawke isn't worthless, her issues just aren't about saving the world.

#259
Morroian

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IanPolaris wrote...

I give you Act III as a counterpoint to all that.  Hawke is worthless.


Getting rid of Meredith is worthless?  Getting blood mages off the streets is worthless? .................... 

#260
LobselVith8

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Ariella wrote...

Your opinion, and I don't see anything that discounts acty 3 in what I said, Ian. Hawke isn't worthless, her issues just aren't about saving the world.


It seems to be about Hawke letting dangerous people walk away ("Sheparding Wolves," "Legacy") and falling into a coma for years at a time. I was hoping for a pro-active and intelligent Hawke, but that's not what was delivered.

#261
TEWR

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Combat: Keep DA2's combat animations. Everything was pretty much flawless. The animations are amazing. But, I think DW rogues need to either be tinkered around with for their current animations or given a new one, because their striking movements in front of an enemy don't look like they put any impact into their swings. With the others, it actually looks like it hurts. With the Rogues, to quote Filament, they're too "arm-y".

Now, let me move to Greatsword animations. I think the animations should stay as they are realistic, but if you use up all of your stamina on abilities, then the animations slow down by 25%. So, you either continue striking at 75% of your normal attack speed until you build up some stamina again, or you drink a stamina draught. That's basically what those potions do. They give you more stamina. Not just stamina to use abilities, but in terms of not being exhausted. It made no sense for Carver to say he was tired and then attack at the same speed.

Archers, Mages, and S&S are perfect. Well, mostly perfect. I don't like the S&S speed dash that Aveline does.

Now, let me move onto abilities. I think there should be a touch of realism in the abilities. Mighty Blow's 6 ft. jump is unnecessary. It should just be a full-force slam into the ground. Then there's Scythe. I think the speed dash it does should go. If possible, could you make it look like they're sprinting? If not, then I'm fine with it. You get the idea. Redo the abilities that are OTT to have a touch of realism.

Next, enemies need to use the same animations we do. I dislike knocking enemies back and they're stuck using Origins' animations with a 3% boost to attack speed. I also think they should use some of our abilities as well. From what I saw of Malvernis, he uses Rock Armor I think. That's good. That's a step in the right direction.

Now, for combat in general. You need to make all enemies use actual tactics. Commanders should command their enemies. Mages should heal their allies. Stuff like that. One example I like to give is a commander telling all of his S&S men to form a line to attack enemies (and to add to it, Archers and Mages should get behind them and attack), and they become immune to damage. The only way to damage them is to use an AoE spell that knocks them back. It wouldn't damage them, but it would disrupt the line so you could damage them again.

Finally, use waves only when they make sense. Darkspawn made sense. The Qunari made sense. The Templars and Mages made sense.


I saw talk about combat, so I figured I'd repost what I posted on the Constructive criticism thread.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 août 2011 - 11:43 .


#262
seraphymon

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It may have been a secondary but you needed it to progress the story so it was more of a main, side quests in DAO weremuch better implmeteed with the lowest just being for exp. but DA2 was just plain pathetic imo. and yeah in act 3 hawke is worthless to me.

#263
TEWR

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I thought the stories for DAII's side quest were amazing, but their only failing was that they didn't connect to the main plot like they could've and should've.

#264
seraphymon

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AS with many other my fav was mostly act 2 and dealing with the arishock, but act 1 and more so act 3 just didnt do it for me, and then the story as a whole was just disconnected.

#265
Ariella

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Your opinion, and I don't see anything that discounts acty 3 in what I said, Ian. Hawke isn't worthless, her issues just aren't about saving the world.


It seems to be about Hawke letting dangerous people walk away ("Sheparding Wolves," "Legacy") and falling into a coma for years at a time. I was hoping for a pro-active and intelligent Hawke, but that's not what was delivered.


Falling into a coma for years at a time? Do you really think that's what happened, because my imagination can supply numberous things that Hawke was doing in the interm years, and none of them involve being comatose. A lot of them, however, are the little things that in a LARP or a TT game you'd sit down with a GM between session and run small scenes, as they have little to do with the main story. Just food for thought.

#266
Tommy6860

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Ariella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Ariella wrote...

When did accessablity become a by-word for "action" or "speed" in a game? I'm talking about things that make it easier to get into, what I consider the most important part of ANY rpg: the story. If mechanics bog a story down, then they aren't working.


If the style of the game precludes an actual story that the character can interact with (rather than be a drooling bystander like Hawke seems to be much of the time), then it isn't working either at least from an RP perspective.

-Polaris


Again it seems you got a different version of the game than I did, because my Hawke made friends, influenced people all based on my choices.


I've had discussions like these in this very thread with you long ago, and it's why I swayed away from the "hear no evil" forumites. I don't usually don't this, but I think you're just downright dishonest. You change up so much from one point to another, and when you're shown that, you continue on without addressing your inconsistencies. It's fine to like what you like, but entirely another to misrepresent what these games actually do when playing them.

#267
LobselVith8

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Morroian wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I give you Act III as a counterpoint to all that.  Hawke is worthless.


Getting rid of Meredith is worthless?  Getting blood mages off the streets is worthless? .................... 


If Hawke was spending the last three years trying to get rid of Meredith, instead of doing absolutely nothing, then I would agree with you.

Also, writing 99.9% of mage antagonists as complete idiots doesn't really make me feel that I'm being given a good story - it makes me feel like I'm watching a C level movie with really bad dialogue and awful characters that make no sense.

#268
TEWR

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I give you Act III as a counterpoint to all that.  Hawke is worthless.


Getting rid of Meredith is worthless?  Getting blood mages off the streets is worthless? .................... 


If Hawke was spending the last three years trying to get rid of Meredith, instead of doing absolutely nothing, then I would agree with you.

Also, writing 99.9% of mage antagonists as complete idiots doesn't really make me feel that I'm being given a good story - it makes me feel like I'm watching a C level movie with really bad dialogue and awful characters that make no sense.



I'd rather watch The Room then play Act III again.

#269
LobselVith8

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Ariella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It seems to be about Hawke letting dangerous people walk away ("Sheparding Wolves," "Legacy") and falling into a coma for years at a time. I was hoping for a pro-active and intelligent Hawke, but that's not what was delivered.


Falling into a coma for years at a time? Do you really think that's what happened, because my imagination can supply numberous things that Hawke was doing in the interm years, and none of them involve being comatose. A lot of them, however, are the little things that in a LARP or a TT game you'd sit down with a GM between session and run small scenes, as they have little to do with the main story. Just food for thought.


My imagination shouldn't supplement that Hawke was clearly doing nothing about a dictator based on the dialogue provided in Act III, where no one was even aware what Hawke's opinion was on the matter. If you're expecting that my imagination should contradict what's explicitly stated in the story, then you're mistaken. It can no more ignore the fact that Hawke is a lazy and foolish protagonist than it can override the cringe-inducing depiction of mage antagonists as idiots - Decimus, Tarohne, Grace, Endgame Orsino. My imagination shouldn't be required to fix the flaws with the game.

#270
Ariella

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Tommy6860 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Ariella wrote...

When did accessablity become a by-word for "action" or "speed" in a game? I'm talking about things that make it easier to get into, what I consider the most important part of ANY rpg: the story. If mechanics bog a story down, then they aren't working.


If the style of the game precludes an actual story that the character can interact with (rather than be a drooling bystander like Hawke seems to be much of the time), then it isn't working either at least from an RP perspective.

-Polaris


Again it seems you got a different version of the game than I did, because my Hawke made friends, influenced people all based on my choices.


I've had discussions like these in this very thread with you long ago, and it's why I swayed away from the "hear no evil" forumites. I don't usually don't this, but I think you're just downright dishonest. You change up so much from one point to another, and when you're shown that, you continue on without addressing your inconsistencies. It's fine to like what you like, but entirely another to misrepresent what these games actually do when playing them.


My Hawke did make friends, I wandered down to the Alienage after a certain quest with Aveline and was greeted rather heartily because of my actions. Certain people trust my character because of my choices, and came back to her for help. How is that NOT making friends and influencing people?

And at the end, how I played Hawke made my final choice a natural and logical growth of my game.

There's nothing dishonest about that, Tommy.

#271
Gunderic

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I give you Act III as a counterpoint to all that.  Hawke is worthless.


Getting rid of Meredith is worthless?  Getting blood mages off the streets is worthless? .................... 


If Hawke was spending the last three years trying to get rid of Meredith, instead of doing absolutely nothing, then I would agree with you.

Also, writing 99.9% of mage antagonists as complete idiots doesn't really make me feel that I'm being given a good story - it makes me feel like I'm watching a C level movie with really bad dialogue and awful characters that make no sense.


That's exactly what Dragon Age 2 was.

#272
Ariella

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It seems to be about Hawke letting dangerous people walk away ("Sheparding Wolves," "Legacy") and falling into a coma for years at a time. I was hoping for a pro-active and intelligent Hawke, but that's not what was delivered.


Falling into a coma for years at a time? Do you really think that's what happened, because my imagination can supply numberous things that Hawke was doing in the interm years, and none of them involve being comatose. A lot of them, however, are the little things that in a LARP or a TT game you'd sit down with a GM between session and run small scenes, as they have little to do with the main story. Just food for thought.


My imagination shouldn't supplement that Hawke was clearly doing nothing about a dictator based on the dialogue provided in Act III, where no one was even aware what Hawke's opinion was on the matter. If you're expecting that my imagination should contradict what's explicitly stated in the story, then you're mistaken. It can no more ignore the fact that Hawke is a lazy and foolish protagonist than it can override the cringe-inducing depiction of mage antagonists as idiots - Decimus, Tarohne, Grace, Endgame Orsino. My imagination shouldn't be required to fix the flaws with the game.


I wish people would make up their minds. On one side there are people screaming about not wanting their hand held, and on the other I've got people screaming that Bioware should have handed them every story bit on a platter. RPGs do require a little use of imagination, and considering what Hawke had been through in act two, it doesn't surprise me that she didn't take an active hand until act three. You're assuming that made her opinion known prior to that moment. I'd think the fact that there was a rally outside her doorstep that was about to come to blows was the impetus for forcing her to air her thinking publicly, and she really had no reason to do otherwise.

#273
lobi

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The game will not advance until ...... You must complete quest dumb before going to deep roads even if you have enough money. You cannot have Chaotic evil in this game. Quasi bad person char is penalised party members and XP. This game forces the issue and gives no alternatives. 'Gaiders aligned PC' is fanatically imposed. Few more years and they will be calling DOOM3 an RPG classic.

Modifié par lobi, 19 août 2011 - 12:12 .


#274
bEVEsthda

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lobi wrote...

The game will not advance until ...... You must complete quest dumb before going to deep roads even if you have enough money. You cannot have Chaotic evil in this game. Quasi bad person char is penalised party members and XP. This game forces the issue and gives no alternatives. 'Gaiders' PC is fanatically imposed. Few more years and they will be calling DOOM3 an RPG classic.


One thing that hit a note in me: " 'Gaiders' PC is fanatically imposed". Yes. Have D.Gaider written too many novels now? And lost the art of writing games?

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 19 août 2011 - 12:16 .


#275
Maconbar

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lobi wrote...

The game will not advance until ...... You must complete quest dumb before going to deep roads even if you have enough money. You cannot have Chaotic evil in this game. Quasi bad person char is penalised party members and XP. This game forces the issue and gives no alternatives. 'Gaiders aligned PC' is fanatically imposed. Few more years and they will be calling DOOM3 an RPG classic.


And this is substantially different from DA:O?