295 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

Persephone wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

It did not tank at all. Want a tanked project that killed a franchise? Try the last Might and Magic game.

Actually there are some superficial similiarities between MMX and DA2 if you really want to go there.  Given that (as a conservative estimate) about a third of DA2's sales were driven by preorders and thus by DAO's reputation (confirmed by the fact that sales fell off a cliff after week two) and given that DA2 still hasn't hit the 1.5 million sales mark (DAO has hit 3.8 mil roughly and is actually outselling DA2 currently by contrast) is solid evidence that DA2 has in fact tanked.

Why else would Bioware and ML do their Mea Culpa?

-Polaris

1.5 million? Are the official sale numbers out? No, they aren't. I'm tired of estimates done by a site mocked all over the internet for its inaccuracy.

What Mea Culpa? There is no Mea Culpa.

Ever thought that DAII might have revived interest in DAO as in people who bought & played DAII first are buying DAO now as well? I played Gabriel Knight II first and thanks to its brilliance, I ended up buying GK1 later.

The 3.2 million figure for DAO are sold-in numbers. The 2 million number that EA gave for its stockholder report on 7/26/11 are also sold-in numbers.

And you're quite correct. Usually, when sequels are released, the predecessor often gets a sales bump as well.

[Persephone]

Gunderic wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Well, that's JE Sawyer, project director and lead designer of Fallout: New Vegas, and Mike Laidlaw is Mike Laidlaw: lead designer of Dragon Age 2 and developer of Sonic Chronicles.

As well as fellow Lead Designer of DAO, according to the credits of my version of DAO. Your point being?

Lead designer of the Xbox360 version of Dragon Age: Origins, I believe. Just sayin'.

I am playing the PC version. And its credits state quite clearly: Lead Designer: Mike Laidlaw

I am still also MEGA grateful for him being LD for Jade Empire.

Again, your point being?

[IanPolaris]

Persephone wrote...

No, it's not accepted as such at all. Never mind digital sales having increased dramatically since 2009. And I doubt Bioware cares about what sale numbers are floating around online, as long as they, EA and their investors are satisfied with the actual numbers.

Yes it is.  VChartz is far from perfect, but it's the best publically available estimates you get for sales figures and if you want to talk about sales, you go there. 

So Bioware owes you an apology for DAII? Too much credit? Geez, how entitled are you?<_<

I never said that.  However, Bioware does desperately need to get the goodwill of it's surviving DA customers back.  We'll see if they manage.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You know, you're right "dear".  I was giving him and Bioware too much credit.  However, it's clear the project was a failure (because it failed to meet targets) and now they want to open up communication with how to make things better?  This is the sort of feedback that should have been done a YEAR ago while DA2 was still in developement.

-Polaris

To be fair, they did listen to feedback to Origins.

Problem is, in many ways, they went into overkill and scrap mode.  My impression at least.

That could well be in which case, they ignored what people LIKED about DAO apparently.  In any case it seems to be a classic failure to listen to your audience (and that can be hard) and KNOW your customer.  I still believe based on many of his statements that ML felt that he knew "better" than his customers and that (as I said before) almost never ends well.

-Polaris

To add to your point, the heated reception of Awakening with regards to some of the experimental things they were doing, should have maybe set a few alarm bells (even though I personally consider Awakening superior to DA2, yes even as an expansion). I do not know though if they could have altered their direction in any significant way by that point.

[IanPolaris]

Persephone wrote...

I am playing the PC version. And its credits state quite clearly: Lead Designer: Mike Laidlaw

I am still also MEGA grateful for him being LD for Jade Empire.

Again, your point being?

You do realize that ML became the Lead Dev for all of DAO after the PC Version was essentially "in the can" as they say in holywood.  That meant that ML got the title credit, but the actual lead dev work on DAO-PC was by Knowles.  Just saying.

-Polaris

[Persephone]

Ariella wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

they communicated, but only saying for us to wait til lthe game comes out, wait and wait and wait. when we knew all in well how things would most likely go. Nothing in terms of what we actually were looking for or wanted to discuss since things were already planned out way ahead. But all the complaining when we first heard about each change reflected just like we thought when the game finally came out.

We all knew? What's this "we all" stuff. The dev team communicated with us as time allowed from the very beginning, but DA2 was never intended to be a creation of the forums so where you get the idea they'd up and change the slightest thing just because one or two people didn't like it, makes me wonder.

And if I may point out, yet again, they did take into account a lot of fan feedback from both Origins and Awakening. Just because this didn't float your boat doesn't mean they weren't listening.

The "we all knew" baffles me too. If you KNEW it all anyway, why the hell are you moaning about being "duped by Bioware" and why did you buy a game you "knew" was oh so horrible? Pick one, both make you look illogical...

[Ariella]

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

No, it's not accepted as such at all. Never mind digital sales having increased dramatically since 2009. And I doubt Bioware cares about what sale numbers are floating around online, as long as they, EA and their investors are satisfied with the actual numbers.

Yes it is.  VChartz is far from perfect, but it's the best publically available estimates you get for sales figures and if you want to talk about sales, you go there. 

Prove it.

So Bioware owes you an apology for DAII? Too much credit? Geez, how entitled are you?<_<

I never said that.  However, Bioware does desperately need to get the goodwill of it's surviving DA customers back.  We'll see if they manage.

-Polaris

Ian, stop acting like everyone hated DA2 the same way you did. There are more than a few DA customers who liked or loved the game. So there's goodwill they never lost.

[Persephone]

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I am playing the PC version. And its credits state quite clearly: Lead Designer: Mike Laidlaw

I am still also MEGA grateful for him being LD for Jade Empire.

Again, your point being?

You do realize that ML became the Lead Dev for all of DAO after the PC Version was essentially "in the can" as they say in holywood.  That meant that ML got the title credit, but the actual lead dev work on DAO-PC was by Knowles.  Just saying.

-Polaris

Yeah, I'm sure they credited him in the PC version because he has such a great smile. Just saying too.

[Persephone]

IanPolaris wrote...

So Bioware owes you an apology for DAII? Too much credit? Geez, how entitled are you?<_<

I never said that.  However, Bioware does desperately need to get the goodwill of it's surviving DA customers back.  We'll see if they manage.

-Polaris

Desperately? Sorry, judging from some people's behavior, I'd not want them back.

Legacy worked far better than any Mea Culpa nonsense ever would have.

[seraphymon]

Ariella wrote...
We all knew? What's this "we all" stuff. The dev team communicated with us as time allowed from the very beginning, but DA2 was never intended to be a creation of the forums so where you get the idea they'd up and change the slightest thing just because one or two people didn't like it, makes me wonder.

And if I may point out, yet again, they did take into account a lot of fan feedback from both Origins and Awakening. Just because this didn't float your boat doesn't mean they weren't listening.

Fine the people who actually followed DA2 information on the forums. No its never a creation of the forums. but the customers are the ones who  that pay their salaries when we buy their stuff. fans feedback was taken in, but in all honesty To me ML didnt like DAo to begin with as really it wasnt his creation.

Bk at least in the original DAO was the top LD, with ML being secondary or only there for  putting it on Xbox or something as far as i have heard, i may be wrong though. In any case  I dont think the Dev thing really communicated as much as they could have if they really cared about us. But then again why would they if they were planning on going in a certain direction no matter what.

[IanPolaris]

Ariella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

No, it's not accepted as such at all. Never mind digital sales having increased dramatically since 2009. And I doubt Bioware cares about what sale numbers are floating around online, as long as they, EA and their investors are satisfied with the actual numbers.

Yes it is.  VChartz is far from perfect, but it's the best publically available estimates you get for sales figures and if you want to talk about sales, you go there. 

Prove it.

Where else are you going to get publically available sales numbers.  VChartz is the place you go not just for computer games but table top RPGs, board games, and much much more.  I think you are being unreasonable.  If the 1.5 million estimate was way too low you can be sure EA's marketing would say so (with their own sales figures).

EA itself gives a figure per their publically realesed financials of 2 million "Sold In" which any fiscal analyst will tell you is another way of saying "shipped".  That actually dovetails pretty well with VChartz if you consider a bunch of product is still mouldering unsold on the shelf (which happens to be the case).

So Bioware owes you an apology for DAII? Too much credit? Geez, how entitled are you?<_<

I never said that.  However, Bioware does desperately need to get the goodwill of it's surviving DA customers back.  We'll see if they manage.

-Polaris

Ian, stop acting like everyone hated DA2 the same way you did. There are more than a few DA customers who liked or loved the game. So there's goodwill they never lost.

I'm not.  I'm saying that it split the fanbase and it was poorly received by the core audience based on the sales figures.  That seems to be the case.

-Polaris

[Persephone]

seraphymon wrote...

Ariella wrote...
We all knew? What's this "we all" stuff. The dev team communicated with us as time allowed from the very beginning, but DA2 was never intended to be a creation of the forums so where you get the idea they'd up and change the slightest thing just because one or two people didn't like it, makes me wonder.

And if I may point out, yet again, they did take into account a lot of fan feedback from both Origins and Awakening. Just because this didn't float your boat doesn't mean they weren't listening.

Fine the people who actually followed DA2 information on the forums. No its never a creation of the forums. but the customers are the ones who  that pay their salaries when we buy their stuff. fans feedback was taken in, but in all honesty To me ML didnt like DAo to begin with as really it wasnt his creation.

Bk at least in the original DAO was the top LD, with ML being secondary or only there for  putting it on Xbox or something as far as i have heard, i may be wrong though. In any case  I dont think the Dev thing really communicated as much as they could have if they really cared about us. But then again why would they if they were planning on going in a certain direction no matter what.

I followed every scrap of info since the sequel was announced. Don't speak for me.

ML didn't like DAO? He has said QUITE the opposite.

And you do not get named LEAD DESIGNER if all you do is port a game to another platform.

[IanPolaris]

Persephone wrote...

Yeah, I'm sure they credited him in the PC version because he has such a great smile. Just saying too.

Nope.  It is simplier than that.  ML took over just before DAO went Gold.  Since ML was "in charge" when DAO went gold for the PC, ML got the title credit.  Simple as that.

-Polaris

[Ariella]

seraphymon wrote...

Ariella wrote...
We all knew? What's this "we all" stuff. The dev team communicated with us as time allowed from the very beginning, but DA2 was never intended to be a creation of the forums so where you get the idea they'd up and change the slightest thing just because one or two people didn't like it, makes me wonder.

And if I may point out, yet again, they did take into account a lot of fan feedback from both Origins and Awakening. Just because this didn't float your boat doesn't mean they weren't listening.

Fine the people who actually followed DA2 information on the forums. No its never a creation of the forums. but the customers are the ones who  that pay their salaries when we buy their stuff. fans feedback was taken in, but in all honesty To me ML didnt like DAo to begin with as really it wasnt his creation.

Bk at least in the original DAO was the top LD, with ML being secondary or only there for  putting it on Xbox or something as far as i have heard, i may be wrong though. In any case  I dont think the Dev thing really communicated as much as they could have if they really cared about us. But then again why would they if they were planning on going in a certain direction no matter what.

I followed DA2 from before it was annouced, as I've been on the Bioware forums since NWN, so don't put words in my mouth. I knew exactly what I was getting when I opened the box.

The customers don't pay their salaries. EA does, and the idea that Mike doesn't like DA is just more fiction come up with to explain why people don't like DA2.

[Persephone]

IanPolaris wrote...

Where else are you going to get publically available sales numbers.  VChartz is the place you go not just for computer games but table top RPGs, board games, and much much more.  I think you are being unreasonable.  If the 1.5 million estimate was way too low you can be sure EA's marketing would say so (with their own sales figures).

EA itself gives a figure per their publically realesed financials of 2 million "Sold In" which any fiscal analyst will tell you is another way of saying "shipped".  That actually dovetails pretty well with VChartz if you consider a bunch of product is still mouldering unsold on the shelf (which happens to be the case).

I'm not.  I'm saying that it split the fanbase and it was poorly received by the core audience based on the sales figures.  That seems to be the case.

-Polaris

I work in sales and marketing. VChartz is a joke.

There  will always be unsold copies of a game on a shelf, that is how retailers work. Otherwise, I'd be very put out if I went to a shop and have them order my copy, that is something I might as well do myself. I do not need a shop for that.

[Persephone]

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Yeah, I'm sure they credited him in the PC version because he has such a great smile. Just saying too.

Nope.  It is simplier than that.  ML took over just before DAO went Gold.  Since ML was "in charge" when DAO went gold for the PC, ML got the title credit.  Simple as that.

-Polaris

And I am sure he was not involved in the creative process before or after, why would he, given that DAO is put on a pedestal and therefore he could not positively have been contributing to it, right?

Modifié par Persephone, 18 août 2011 - 08:13 .

[Ariella]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ariella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

No, it's not accepted as such at all. Never mind digital sales having increased dramatically since 2009. And I doubt Bioware cares about what sale numbers are floating around online, as long as they, EA and their investors are satisfied with the actual numbers.

Yes it is.  VChartz is far from perfect, but it's the best publically available estimates you get for sales figures and if you want to talk about sales, you go there. 

Prove it.

Where else are you going to get publically available sales numbers.  VChartz is the place you go not just for computer games but table top RPGs, board games, and much much more.  I think you are being unreasonable.  If the 1.5 million estimate was way too low you can be sure EA's marketing would say so (with their own sales figures).

EA itself gives a figure per their publically realesed financials of 2 million "Sold In" which any fiscal analyst will tell you is another way of saying "shipped".  That actually dovetails pretty well with VChartz if you consider a bunch of product is still mouldering unsold on the shelf (which happens to be the case).

And you know this how? Have you checked every store shelf, hmm? And as Persephone pointed outm what about digital sales? We don't have exact numbers and neither does this site of yours, just estimates.

So Bioware owes you an apology for DAII? Too much credit? Geez, how entitled are you?<_<

I never said that.  However, Bioware does desperately need to get the goodwill of it's surviving DA customers back.  We'll see if they manage.

-Polaris

Ian, stop acting like everyone hated DA2 the same way you did. There are more than a few DA customers who liked or loved the game. So there's goodwill they never lost.

I'm not.  I'm saying that it split the fanbase and it was poorly received by the core audience based on the sales figures.  That seems to be the case.

-Polaris

You refuse to include anyone who liked Da2 in the core audience, when you make statements like that, Ian. I'd be careful.

[seraphymon]

Ariella wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

Ariella wrote...
We all knew? What's this "we all" stuff. The dev team communicated with us as time allowed from the very beginning, but DA2 was never intended to be a creation of the forums so where you get the idea they'd up and change the slightest thing just because one or two people didn't like it, makes me wonder.

And if I may point out, yet again, they did take into account a lot of fan feedback from both Origins and Awakening. Just because this didn't float your boat doesn't mean they weren't listening.

Fine the people who actually followed DA2 information on the forums. No its never a creation of the forums. but the customers are the ones who  that pay their salaries when we buy their stuff. fans feedback was taken in, but in all honesty To me ML didnt like DAo to begin with as really it wasnt his creation.

Bk at least in the original DAO was the top LD, with ML being secondary or only there for  putting it on Xbox or something as far as i have heard, i may be wrong though. In any case  I dont think the Dev thing really communicated as much as they could have if they really cared about us. But then again why would they if they were planning on going in a certain direction no matter what.

I followed DA2 from before it was annouced, as I've been on the Bioware forums since NWN, so don't put words in my mouth. I knew exactly what I was getting when I opened the box.

The customers don't pay their salaries. EA does, and the idea that Mike doesn't like DA is just more fiction come up with to explain why people don't like DA2.

AS have i. For every detail of change . We knew to an extent what we were getting as far as the major points were going. But people were told to give them the benefit of the doubt or wait till the actual game comes out before judgement, even after the demo was released. We may not pay their salaries directly but we sure do  indirectly, other they wouldnt have a job  and would have to go look for another one. The idea of ML doesnt like DAo as much isnt fiction for me, based on what he says on DAo and how he reacts to it, theres alot of signs to it, and IMO  he doesnt really care for it.

[Gunderic]

Persephone wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Yeah, I'm sure they credited him in the PC version because he has such a great smile. Just saying too.

Nope.  It is simplier than that.  ML took over just before DAO went Gold.  Since ML was "in charge" when DAO went gold for the PC, ML got the title credit.  Simple as that.

-Polaris

And I am sure he was not involved in the creative process before or after, why would he, given that DAO is put on a pedestal and therefore he could not positively have been contributing to it, right?

I think he worked on some DLC, actually.

[Persephone]

Ariella wrote...

You refuse to include anyone who liked Da2 in the core audience, when you make statements like that, Ian. I'd be careful.

I've been a fan of Bioware and its games since the release of BG2. Does that include me in the core audience? Wait, I loved DAII....so that settles that.

[IanPolaris]

Persephone wrote...

I work in sales and marketing. VChartz is a joke.

Sales data is generally propriety as you should know perfectly well.  VChartz is the best we've got and in this case we do have independant confirmation that the number is basically right from EA itself.

There  will always be unsold copies of a game on a shelf, that is how retailers work. Otherwise, I'd be very put out if I went to a shop and have them order my copy, that is something I might as well do myself. I do not need a shop for that.

Sure but that's why the Sold-In number is always higher (often significantly higher) than the actual retail sales figure (it's a good way to make a financial report for shareholders look better than it really is and it's a well known gambit by stockholders).  Thus 2 million "sold in" is reasonably about 1.5 million sold more or less.

-Polaris

[Ariella]

Persephone wrote...

Ariella wrote...

You refuse to include anyone who liked Da2 in the core audience, when you make statements like that, Ian. I'd be careful.

I've been a fan of Bioware and its games since the release of BG2. Does that include me in the core audience? Wait, I loved DAII....so that settles that.

You and me both, so where does that leave us?

[Persephone]

Gunderic wrote...

Persephone wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Yeah, I'm sure they credited him in the PC version because he has such a great smile. Just saying too.

Nope.  It is simplier than that.  ML took over just before DAO went Gold.  Since ML was "in charge" when DAO went gold for the PC, ML got the title credit.  Simple as that.

-Polaris

And I am sure he was not involved in the creative process before or after, why would he, given that DAO is put on a pedestal and therefore he could not positively have been contributing to it, right?

I think he worked on some DLC, actually.

They have their own credits. If you work on DLC, you will be mentioned there, not in the credits of the main game.

[IanPolaris]

Persephone wrote...

And I am sure he was not involved in the creative process before or after, why would he, given that DAO is put on a pedestal and therefore he could not positively have been contributing to it, right?

He was after, but we all know how the DAO DLC and even DAA compared to DAO (not very favorably as KoP alluded to earlier).  The fact is that the only reason he's called the lead dev for the PC version of DAO is because he got the job very shortly before it went gold on the PC.  That's all.

-Polaris

[hoorayforicecream]

Persephone wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Yeah, I'm sure they credited him in the PC version because he has such a great smile. Just saying too.

Nope.  It is simplier than that.  ML took over just before DAO went Gold.  Since ML was "in charge" when DAO went gold for the PC, ML got the title credit.  Simple as that.

-Polaris

And I am sure he was not involved in the creative process before or after, why would he, given that DAO is put on a pedestal and therefore he could not positively have been contributing to it, right?

I've been working in games since 2002, and I've worked on 5 different titles across multiple platforms, and I've never once worked with a lead who wasn't intimately aware of and familiar with every feature and design decision in their field (art, tech, design) going into the game, even if brought on late to a project. Trying to diminish anyone's contribution as lead anything on a game development team, especially late in the project when people are working the 80+ hour weeks, is a grave disservice.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 18 août 2011 - 08:19 .