24 réponses à ce sujet

[TeethAlmighty]

 Hey folks,

May I say, this game is epic. It's my first time playing an RPG, and I'm astounded at the details and how addicting it is! The forums have been fun as well. On to the topic! I'm probably overthinking this, so my apologies for the long post.

When I started building Alistair, I still thought a tank was a vehicle. Needless to say, I've been trying to make him more effective since I started to understand what a tank is and what it can do, but I think he still needs some help heading into the Final Battle. Here are his stats (with equipment bonuses):

Level 19
Templar/Champion

Str 40
Dex 37
Will 21
Magic 14
Cun 17
Con 33

Armor 38
Defence 94
Attack 101
Damage 43.5

Mental Resistance 37
Physical Resistance 65
Fire Resistance 50
Cold Resistance 40
Electricity Resistance 50
Nature Resistance 75
Spirit Resistance 75

Talents:
Shield skills maxed
Templar skills maxed
Champion skills: War Cry
Warrior skills: First line maxed, second line has precise striking but NOT taunt

Equipment:
Ring: Lifegiver
Ring of Ages (+20% resist all elements)
Aneirin's Token (+10% resist electricty, nature, spirit)
Creationist Cord (+10% resist fire, +10% to healing effects)
Duncan's Shield
Juggernaut boots, gloves and chest
Helm of Corruption
Keening Blade (+6 attack, +2 Armour penetration, +3 Cold damage) (GM Flame, GM Flame, M Hale)
Topsider's Honor (+20% Spirit Resist, +6 undead damage) (GM Silverite, GM Silverite, M Silverite)

Other party members: Wynne, Morrigan and my own Mage

I've decided to use Topsider's Honor against the 'spawn and then switch to Keening Blade for the Archdemon.

My Questions:

1. I sacrificed +4 electricity damage on the Keening Blade by using Master Hale instead of Master Lightning to give myself 65 physical resistance. Without it, I drop to 45. But maybe shield wall is enough and I should just go for extra damage? Is 65 physical resistance going to make much difference compared to 45 against the archdemon?

2. Any advantage to putting all the Silverite runes on Keening (making it a glorious darkspawn smiter) and use Topsider with Master Hale rune and 2 elemental damage runes for the archdemon? (I don't really need the spirit resistance boost with helm of corruption)

2. Any advantage to using Key to the City instead of one of the rings? (I doubt it but...)

3. Is using Helm of Corruption worth losing the Juggernaut item set bonus?

4. Without taunt, anything else I can do to attract enemies effectively?

5 Any advantage to using Smith's Heart (+20% fire resist, -1 Dex) or Magister's Shield (Currently on Wynne = +6 Def, +6 Def against Missles, +4% spell resist, -10% nature resist) over Anerins token (+10% spirit, nature, Electricity resist)?

Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks! 

Modifié par Spawnhammer, 18 août 2011 - 02:16 .

[Mike3207]

4. The Archdemon uses spirit attacks, so I would use Corruption against him. I would keep Juggernaut until that point though.

5. Only skills and talents attract enemies. I read on the wikia that threat items don't work to attract or remove threat.

[WJC3688]

1. I sacrificed +4 electricity damage on the Keening Blade by using
Master Hale instead of Master Lightning to give myself 65 physical
resistance. Without it, I drop to 45. But maybe shield wall is enough
and I should just go for extra damage? Is 65 physical resistance going
to make much difference compared to 45 against the archdemon?

I'd go for extra damage.  Shield Wall makes you immune to normal knockdowns regardless of physical resistance, and the Archdemon's Grab ability is likewise unresistable no matter what your physical resistance is, making it an almost entirely meaningless value.

2.
Any advantage to putting all the Silverite runes on Keening (making it a
glorious darkspawn smiter) and use Topsider with Master Hale rune and 2
elemental damage runes for the archdemon? (I don't really need the
spirit resistance boost with helm of corruption)

I'd use the Keening Blade for whichever part of the battle you think will be harder (likely the Archdemon scuffle).  You shouldn't be encountering any undead so it's obviously superior to Topsider's Honor.

2. Any advantage to using Key to the City instead of one of the rings? (I doubt it but...)

Yes.  Defense (provided by Key to the City in the form of a Dex boost) beats out elemental resistances for reasons explained further down.  The Dex boost alone is enough to make it worthwhile, but Key to the City also increases DPS (which is a factor in drawing threat) and provides a small Con boost in addition to the Dex.  I'd use it over the Ring of Ages.

3. Is using Helm of Corruption worth losing the Juggernaut item set bonus?

Absolutely.  Even before the Archdemon fight, Corruption's +5 Dex beats out the Juggernaut set bonus's +3 Con in terms of absorbing damage.  If you find that Alistair has no trouble staying alive, but that it's difficult to keep threat on him, then maybe I'd go with the Juggernaut set bonus, since it also gives a Str bonus (meaning higher damage, which means more threat generation).  However, the additional threat generated by +3 Str is going to be really small and probably insignificant, so you'll probably want to just stick with Corruption.

4. Without taunt, anything else I can do to attract enemies effectively?

Unfortunately, no, not really.  Threat is distance-based and damage-based--enemies attack the closest target at the start of the fight and after that Threat values change according to how much damage each party member does to the enemy.  Try to start the fight with Alistair as close to the enemies as possible to produce the highest initial threat value, and do whatever you can to increase his damage output (which is, sadly, not much).  Use poisons if you can and spam abilities that do more damage than a normal attack, such as Overpower or Assault, at yellow enemies.  And, of course, have Threaten active at all times.

But again, the bad news is that all of the above factors are relatively insignificant compared to using Taunt, especially against bosses.  It's an essential talent for a tank and unfortunate that you missed it.

Any advantage to using Smith's Heart (+20% fire resist, -1 Dex) or
Magister's Shield (Currently on Wynne = +6 Def, +6 Def against Missles,
+4% spell resist, -10% nature resist) over Anerins token (+10% spirit,
nature, Electricity resist)?

Absolutely.  You should encounter normal, physical damage-dealing attacks far more often than elemental damage (with the exception of the Archdemon, but Corruption maxes out your spirit resistance, so bonuses to that are superfluous), so defense is more important than elemental resistances.  Likewise, Aneirin's Token gives a strong buff to Wynne's Vessel of the Spirit ability.  I'd switch who Magister's Shield and Aneirin's Token are on.

Modifié par WJC3688, 18 août 2011 - 10:48 .

[TeethAlmighty]

@Mike - Corruption is pretty awesome, isn't it? Can you imagine a full corruption armor set and what that might look like? Good point about using talents/skills. That will definitely form part of my strategy from here on in. I'll miss the sweet look of the full juggy armor though.

[TeethAlmighty]

@WJC3688 - excellent post, thank you! I realized too late that taunt was a key element missing from my build (blame it on not reading the forums early enough), but who knows, maybe I'll accumulate enough XP by the time I get to the archdemon...

1. It's a shame I can't re-enchant before the dragon (I'm currently at the lower level of Fort Drakon with Sandal), because Keening is a pretty sweet spawn blender with the silverite runes added, but I think you are right that with its bonuses, it gives me a little more of an edge (so to speak) against the archdemon, so a better choice for elemental runes which may make more of a difference in that fight. Good advice about adding the extra damage instead of physical resistance.

Related question. What sword would you now use for darkspawn encounters?

Topsider with 20% spirit resist, +6 dmg to Undead, +28 silverite damage to Darkspawn

or

Keening with +5 Flame, +5 Flame, +4 Electricity, +3 Cold, +6 attack, +2 armor penetration?

That is, do you think Topsider's superior damage output against darkspawn trumps Keening's attack and armor penetrating bonuses?

2. VERY interesting point about the Key to the City and the DEX bonus. From what I've been reading I should have been pumping DEX instead of CON for awhile now to make Alistair all the tank he can be. Added DPS is a great bonus. The Ring of Ages will now give another party member a nice spirit resist bonus in the final fight. Maybe on my Mage who has become my biggest damage dealer...

3. You and Mike make a good point about the corruption helm.

5. Aneirin's token gives Wynne a boost? Who knew? Man, that is excellent information - thanks.

One last thing - Mike mentioned that anti-threat items do not work. I assume this means Bard's Dancing Shoes, etc? That would be a drag as I was hoping that equipping a character with anti-hostility amulet, boots and belt would stack the hostility bonus and make them attract zero aggro. Sigh, more money wasted...

Thanks again for the awesome info! I'm clearly dealing with a Grandmaster here.

Modifié par Spawnhammer, 19 août 2011 - 03:13 .

[WJC3688]

Topsider with 20% spirit resist, +6 dmg to Undead, +28 silverite damage to Darkspawn

or

Keening with +5 Flame, +5 Flame, +4 Electricity, +3 Cold, +6 attack, +2 armor penetration?

That is, do you think Topsider's superior damage output against darkspawn trumps Keening's attack and armor penetrating bonuses?

It certainly does. You put most of Alistair's points into Str and Dex (the two stats which determine attack) so shouldn't have any problems hitting things, and if you do, you can turn on Precise Striking. Meanwhile, the gap in damage output is pretty huge; armor penetration is only ever equal in value to pure damage, never worth more, so even against a heavily armored target you're looking at an effective +19 damage on that Keening Blade (17 elemental + 2 AP) versus +28 on Topsider's Honor.

5. Aneirin's token gives Wynne a boost? Who knew? Man, that is excellent information - thanks.

Yep. The biggest thing is that it causes Wynne to no longer be stunned after the ability is deactivated, making it a much, much more attractive option.

One last thing - do "reduce hostility" items stack? Would equipping a character with anti-hostility amulet, boots and belt make them attract zero aggro? Might be good for my mega-damage dealing Mage.

Unfortunately, the "reduce hostility" effect is bugged and actually doesn't do anything at all. You're better off giving your squishies equipment that just boosts their defense if you want to keep them alive, but ideally they wouldn't be getting attacked in the first place. If you're interested in comprehensive info on the game's threat mechanics, check out this page:

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Threat

[TeethAlmighty]

Great stuff! With all the info, I might be ready to progress to "hard" on the next playthrough.

[TeethAlmighty]

Just wiped out level two of Fort Drakon and about to head to the rooftop - Alistair's tanking abilities have improved immensely. Thanks again guys.

[Ferretinabun]

Just a tip for next time - a tank's key attribute is Dex (with enough Str to equip whatever armour you want). You'll want this sky-high on a tank, since this boosts defence. Con sounds appropriate for a tank, but in this game it actually delivers very little. From a numbers POV, you're far better off ignoring it and spending those points on Dex instead.

[TeethAlmighty]

@Ferretinabun - absolutely. I'm already noticing a difference by just using equipment that boosts Alistair's Defence score. The whole game has been a huge and rewarding learning process so far.

[Ferretinabun]

Just an afterthought - that doesn't apply for the other potential great tank from your companions - Shale, who requires high Str and Con scores to equip the best crystals, so it's good to just keep pumping them - Con for a tank and Str for DPS. Some say Con is worth the effort with Dog too, but since Dog becomes a poor companion rather quickly I've never kept him in a party long enough to find out. But for everyone else Dex > Con.

Modifié par Ferretinabun, 19 août 2011 - 07:32 .

[Last Darkness]

Spawnhammer wrote...

My Questions:

1. I sacrificed +4 electricity damage on the Keening Blade by using Master Hale instead of Master Lightning to give myself 65 physical resistance. Without it, I drop to 45. But maybe shield wall is enough and I should just go for extra damage? Is 65 physical resistance going to make much difference compared to 45 against the archdemon?

2. Any advantage to putting all the Silverite runes on Keening (making it a glorious darkspawn smiter) and use Topsider with Master Hale rune and 2 elemental damage runes for the archdemon? (I don't really need the spirit resistance boost with helm of corruption)

2. Any advantage to using Key to the City instead of one of the rings? (I doubt it but...)

3. Is using Helm of Corruption worth losing the Juggernaut item set bonus?

4. Without taunt, anything else I can do to attract enemies effectively?

5 Any advantage to using Smith's Heart (+20% fire resist, -1 Dex) or Magister's Shield (Currently on Wynne = +6 Def, +6 Def against Missles, +4% spell resist, -10% nature resist) over Anerins token (+10% spirit, nature, Electricity resist)?

Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks! 

Your Tank is pretty weak, Sub-Par stats and mediocre gear.
As for your questions.

1: Physical resistance only effects your chance to be stunned by stunning attacks.
2: The Archdemon is neither a dragon or darkspawn so bonus for either do not work.(Its a God)
3: Resistances cap at 75%, Anything over is wasted.
4: Doing high damage with Threaten on works wonders.
5: Theres plenty of better necklaces then those. (Also see about resistance caps above)


I keep seeing this mistake in game like these and online. A Tanks main goal is the ability to obtain and then hold as much Aggro/Threat/Malice as possble and survival abilities are secondary. A tank relaies on his allies because hes a team focused character to do damage and support while they take the hits.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 20 août 2011 - 11:14 .

[TeethAlmighty]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Just an afterthought - that doesn't apply for the other potential great tank from your companions - Shale, who requires high Str and Con scores to equip the best crystals, so it's good to just keep pumping them - Con for a tank and Str for DPS. Some say Con is worth the effort with Dog too, but since Dog becomes a poor companion rather quickly I've never kept him in a party long enough to find out. But for everyone else Dex > Con.

Unfortunately I am unable to access DLC for some reason. Would love to do the Stone Prisoner and Warden's Keep side quests some day. Maybe a re-install is in order.

And how dare you say that about Dog! ha ha

Now that I've gotten through the game once on normal, it would be fun to go back at a higher difficulty and make a completely different kind of party. I'm thinking Arcane Warrior (tank), Duel Wielding Rogue (dps), Shale as a Healer and maybe Dog. That would be just about as different a group from my first that I could imagine :-)

[TeethAlmighty]

Last Darkness wrote...



Your Tank is pretty weak, Sub-Par stats and mediocre gear.
As for your questions.

1: Physical resistance only effects your chance to be stunned by stunning attacks.
2: The Archdemon is neither a dragon or darkspawn so bonus for either do not work.(Its a God)
3: Resistances cap at 75%, Anything over is wasted.
4: Doing high damage with Threaten on works wonders.
5: Theres plenty of better necklaces then those. (Also see about resistance caps above)


I keep seeing this mistake in game like these and online. A Tanks main goal is the ability to obtain and then hold as much Aggro/Threat/Malice as possble and survival abilities are secondary. A tank relaies on his allies because hes a team focused character to do damage and support while they take the hits.

Careful, you're going to hurt Alistair's feelings! Ha ha - yeah, he's not the best, but you learn from your mistakes, right? I like figuring things out as I go along. Being new to Dragon Age and RPG's in general, the whole thing has been a steep learning curve.

As for the sub-par equipment, is there a way to get better stuff without the DLC's? I bought as much as I could and grabbed a fair bit from side quests. What else would you recommend?

Cheers, and thanks for the input.

[Last Darkness]

Spawnhammer wrote...

Careful, you're going to hurt Alistair's feelings! Ha ha - yeah, he's not the best, but you learn from your mistakes, right? I like figuring things out as I go along. Being new to Dragon Age and RPG's in general, the whole thing has been a steep learning curve.

As for the sub-par equipment, is there a way to get better stuff without the DLC's? I bought as much as I could and grabbed a fair bit from side quests. What else would you recommend?

Cheers, and thanks for the input.

Well it depends on your Warden (Dont want to take the best items from your main guy right?)

Since Alistair is a Templar its better to equip him with anti-magic gear instead of resitances. Almost all the elemental attacks in game are from spell form(Except dragon breath).
Knight Commanders Chest and the Spellward necklace amoung other things help dramaticaly.
Effort Armor or Wades Superior+Evons chest is nice.
The Two DLC Armors and Blood Dragon are nice as well.*****
Shield = Fade Wall

Note ****
The Return to Ostagar armor and sword+shield are extremly fitting for Alistair as a tank due to the fact that if you have read the novels. The Sword and Shield are his Fathers and the Armor is his Half-Brothers.
They also have incredbible stats all together for a tank.


There are many other ways to tank as well, Theres pure str stated two hand warriors who have 100% dodge I know and duel wield warriors who are all dex with daggers for high damage and defense who are practicaly unhitable.


I myself prefer a aggressive weapon and shield warrior. 26 Dex and every other single attribute point into Str.
Reaver/Templar, this setup gets and holds malice incredibly well.

[TeethAlmighty]

@ Last Darkness - I'm beginning to wonder if my relationship will survive another run through of this game :-)

Great summary of different types of tanks. What do you think of Arcane Warrior as a tank? And in an unrelated question, have you ever played the game without any tank at all?

[Last Darkness]

Spawnhammer wrote...

@ Last Darkness - I'm beginning to wonder if my relationship will survive another run through of this game :-)

Great summary of different types of tanks. What do you think of Arcane Warrior as a tank? And in an unrelated question, have you ever played the game without any tank at all?

Arcane Warrior I would consider one of the best tanks for its versatility.
Theres a number of threads worth a look discussing this.
Matter of fact Blood Mage/Arcane Warrior/Keeper, played as a caster not a melee is downright broken for how much it trvialises the game.


And yes ive played games with no tank.
Ive played with 3 Rogues with Wolves/Spiders and Morrigan in spider form or dog.
Ive played 4 DPS Warriors
Ive played 3 mages and dps/shale.

The game functions perfectly fine.

[TeethAlmighty]

Great! I'll have to give it another go. So many options...

[Last Darkness]

Dog can be buffed like any other character alot of people forget.

Dog can be useful for some characters(Shale works too) to tank high Dragons and be immune to their grab. Plop down some glyphs on them and your good to go along with other buffs.

Also

@Greengoron
Wynne is a vastly superior mage to Morrigan because of her vessel of the spirit ability. One of the reason is with that she can reach spellpower amount Morrigan could never reach. 

As for your tanking advice see above posts.
Dex heavy tanks work as the Warden if you want to survive alot but cripple your true potential.
Also I never suggest Champion on a Warden Tank if your useing another Warrior in your party as well. It causes far too many issues.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 23 août 2011 - 12:57 .

[Ferretinabun]

Spawnhammer - No Shale?! Really? OMFG, I insist you get that sorted immediately!! Shale was the standout character in this game, and as I'm sure you'll appreciate, that's saying a LOT!! Do another runthrough with Shale glued to your hip to discover the genius you've missed!

[Last Darkness]

greengoron89 wrote...

I probably should have clarified that I tend to use Morrigan more for RP purposes (though I do use Wynne much more on no-ritual playthroughs), and for the points she already has invested in the Ice, Lightning, Mind Blast, and Disorient trees.

As for Champion - I'm not sure I know what you mean. I'd like to hear more, if you don't mind - perhaps I can make some adjustments to my own tank.

The Champion Spec has one major Flaw.
Rally costs alot of Stamina and it cripples your Stamina regen. This is a major issue for alot of builds because you run out of stamina quickly.

This is much better on non-warden warriors in your party for support rather then on the warden itself.
If your playing any kind of Warden who has to talent spam, avoid this ability.

There are of course work arounds.
You could ignore Rally and just use Warcry and the spec bonus stats.
or you could charge in spam some talents and THEN activate Rally so its not as much of a waste.


Besides a Bard can buff you just as good with Song of Courage and Shale can buff your party with Stone Aura. Theres also always the enhancment spells like Herioc Offense that are more then enough.

[JayDea]

Plenty has been said already, but I saw mentions of Arcane Warrior as a tank and there's one thing to keep in mind about tanks, it's main purpose is to draw as much threat as possible and soak as much damage as possible, that's where the Arcane Warrior is really tricky to use as a tank because it has a hard time keeping threat. Any archer shooting an Arrow of Slaying will draw the threat away from your AW, or a Warrior with Threaten on.

[Last Darkness]

JayDea wrote...

Plenty has been said already, but I saw mentions of Arcane Warrior as a tank and there's one thing to keep in mind about tanks, it's main purpose is to draw as much threat as possible and soak as much damage as possible, that's where the Arcane Warrior is really tricky to use as a tank because it has a hard time keeping threat. Any archer shooting an Arrow of Slaying will draw the threat away from your AW, or a Warrior with Threaten on.

Melee Arcane Warriors fail at this usualy, Staff using caster Arcane Warriors do pretty well.
Pick up Keeper spec in Awakening and its unbeliable on a caster BM/AW