150 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Let's see, how to measure morality...

I prefer leaving the measuring up to players entirely. Morality is too broad and complicated a concept to measure, not to mention that one might fundamentally disagree with the measuring the game does.

Without some sort of 'morals' value system, there is far less depth to a character's persona, and less reason for making any particular decision one way or another beyond a player's whim.

How? If players do not bother to create a morality for their character and make options at random, then that's their own failing / prerogative. I'd rather be allowed to measure my own morality than have the game tell me about my character's morality.

A red / blue bar adds little to persona. It's the justifications / reasoning of players that give Shepard a persona.

[Dionkey]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Let's see, how to measure morality...

At it's core, there needs to be two at least two measurable extremes. Otherwise, there is nothing to measure all the possible shades of gray in between that would suggest a character's personal values.

Adjustments are made to Paragon and/or Renegade values based on severity from all I have seen in ME 2. ME 2 isn't exactly black and white from what I have seen and you can be awarded points for both Paragon and Renegade in ME 2 based on your choices in conversations or other action choices.

Paragon and Renegade actions are the whole measure of your character's 'morality'. I consider 'morality' in this context as a simplified 'catch all' term in measuring a character's total moral and personal values, similar to the far more complicated system used in earlier versions of Dungeons and Dragons and Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game rules.

Without some sort of measure for your character's 'morality' choices, there is less room for decision options that can make your character more interesting and provide more choices and opportunities later on based on choices made earlier.

Without some sort of 'morals' value system, there is far less depth to a character's persona, and less reason for making any particular decision one way or another beyond a player's whim.

Morality is subjective, it shouldn't be measured on a meter or restrict the player.

[Nashiktal]

Dionkey wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Let's see, how to measure morality...

At it's core, there needs to be two at least two measurable extremes. Otherwise, there is nothing to measure all the possible shades of gray in between that would suggest a character's personal values.

Adjustments are made to Paragon and/or Renegade values based on severity from all I have seen in ME 2. ME 2 isn't exactly black and white from what I have seen and you can be awarded points for both Paragon and Renegade in ME 2 based on your choices in conversations or other action choices.

Paragon and Renegade actions are the whole measure of your character's 'morality'. I consider 'morality' in this context as a simplified 'catch all' term in measuring a character's total moral and personal values, similar to the far more complicated system used in earlier versions of Dungeons and Dragons and Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game rules.

Without some sort of measure for your character's 'morality' choices, there is less room for decision options that can make your character more interesting and provide more choices and opportunities later on based on choices made earlier.

Without some sort of 'morals' value system, there is far less depth to a character's persona, and less reason for making any particular decision one way or another beyond a player's whim.

Morality is subjective, it shouldn't be measured on a meter or restrict the player.

Not to mention it still doesn't explain how being paragon or renegade suddenly gives you a silver tongue. :/

[Dionkey]

Nashiktal wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Let's see, how to measure morality...

At it's core, there needs to be two at least two measurable extremes. Otherwise, there is nothing to measure all the possible shades of gray in between that would suggest a character's personal values.

Adjustments are made to Paragon and/or Renegade values based on severity from all I have seen in ME 2. ME 2 isn't exactly black and white from what I have seen and you can be awarded points for both Paragon and Renegade in ME 2 based on your choices in conversations or other action choices.

Paragon and Renegade actions are the whole measure of your character's 'morality'. I consider 'morality' in this context as a simplified 'catch all' term in measuring a character's total moral and personal values, similar to the far more complicated system used in earlier versions of Dungeons and Dragons and Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game rules.

Without some sort of measure for your character's 'morality' choices, there is less room for decision options that can make your character more interesting and provide more choices and opportunities later on based on choices made earlier.

Without some sort of 'morals' value system, there is far less depth to a character's persona, and less reason for making any particular decision one way or another beyond a player's whim.

Morality is subjective, it shouldn't be measured on a meter or restrict the player.

Not to mention it still doesn't explain how being paragon or renegade suddenly gives you a silver tongue. :/

A gameplay mechanic, a dumb one at that. I see the P/R system as nothing more than to generate more playthroughs. People should play through the game how they like, not two straight paths.

[Sebby]

Another problem with the system is that it's too one dimensional with the rationales someone might have for making a decision, like I chose to spare the Rachni Queen because I wanted a human ally ("against the reapers and beyond") not because my Shepard is some idealist do gooder motivated by simple petty morality.

We need more dialogue options to express our Shepard's reasoning like in the end of Mordin's loyalty mission where you have four to choose from with regards on what to do with the genophage data.

Modifié par Seboist, 19 août 2011 - 09:29 .

[Lumikki]

Morality is not really subjective. People just make it subjective, because people want to bend they morality based they own needs. If person has no morality in real life, they think morality is very subjective and can be bend, because they don't want morality affecting they needs. Persons who has high morality in real life has no issues knowing anything morality related.

[didymos1120]

Seboist wrote...

Another problem with the system is that it's too one dimensional with the rationales someone might have for making a decision, like I chose to spare the Rachni Queen because I wanted a human ally ("against the reapers and beyond") not because I'm some idealist do gooder motivated by simple petty morality.

You can play it that way if Wrex is around.  He'll call you out for taking the "let her live" option, and then you can tell him to think about how she could be a useful ally in the future.  Although I find it interesting that you seem to think morality is somehow petty.

[Dionkey]

Lumikki wrote...

Morality is not really subjective. People just make it subjective, because people want to bend they morality based they own needs. If person has no morality in real life, they think morality is very subjective and can be bend, because they don't want morality affecting they needs. Persons who has high morality in real life has no issues knowing anything morality related.

Morality is subjective in the sense that some people can be logical idealists while others can be blind pragmatists. No person is restricted on what they say in real-life, why should they in game?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lumikki wrote...

Morality is not really subjective. People just make it subjective, because people want to bend they morality based they own needs. If person has no morality in real life, they think morality is very subjective and can be bend, because they don't want morality affecting they needs. Persons who has high morality in real life has no issues knowing anything morality related.

Someone needs to tell the thousand year old debates on morality how utterly useless they've been for now we discovered objective morality.

[Sebby]

didymos1120 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Another problem with the system is that it's too one dimensional with the rationales someone might have for making a decision, like I chose to spare the Rachni Queen because I wanted a human ally ("against the reapers and beyond") not because I'm some idealist do gooder motivated by simple petty morality.

You can play it that way if Wrex is around.  He'll call you out for taking the "let her live" option, and then you can tell him to think about how she could be a useful ally in the future.  Although I find it interesting that you seem to think morality is somehow petty.

Morality in general isn't petty but touchy feely rubbish is not what Shepard should rely on when making hard decisions in a war against a threat like the Reapers.

[ThePwener]

Seboist wrote...

Morality in general isn't petty but touchy feely rubbish is not what Shepard should rely on when making hard decisions in a war against a threat like the Reapers.

Paragon=/="touchy feely"

Renegade=/=a-hole

[Vyse_Fina]

There are some rather nice Extra Credits Videos on the matter from a time before they joined the Escapist (which they left again by now)

On Choices:
http://www.youtube.c...u/8/jlOXAtPvMDk

On Moral Choices: (This is the one that's really on topic, but the other one is related as well)



Edit: Just watcht he videos, they are better than anything I could write here =)

There is also another video about enriching lives with Mass effect 2 as an example:
http://www.escapistm...Enriching-Lives



Anyway, it is too late for mass Effect to still abandon the Paragon/Renegade system I guess. The first two had, them, much would have to be changed if they removed it now and it'd also be unconsistent. Studying design I also know that just removing the visual feedback is something you are usually NOT supposed to do, but that is touched upon in the videos as well, so as I said, give them a look =)

So to the original question I'd have this to say: It is unlikely for ME3 to suddenly drop the system, but maybe the next Bioware game could take these points into cosideration.

Modifié par Vyse_Fina, 19 août 2011 - 10:27 .

[Arppis]

Lumikki wrote...

Morality is not really subjective. People just make it subjective, because people want to bend they morality based they own needs. If person has no morality in real life, they think morality is very subjective and can be bend, because they don't want morality affecting they needs. Persons who has high morality in real life has no issues knowing anything morality related.

Some people want to use morality as a tool, without REALLY following it in the end. They are just trying to justify horrible things they do by it. It happens a lot and you can see some of it every day.

Modifié par Arppis, 19 août 2011 - 10:08 .

[Dariuszp]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Let's see, how to measure morality...

At it's core, there needs to be two at least two measurable extremes. Otherwise, there is nothing to measure all the possible shades of gray in between that would suggest a character's personal values.

Adjustments are made to Paragon and/or Renegade values based on severity from all I have seen in ME 2. ME 2 isn't exactly black and white from what I have seen and you can be awarded points for both Paragon and Renegade in ME 2 based on your choices in conversations or other action choices.

Paragon and Renegade actions are the whole measure of your character's 'morality'. I consider 'morality' in this context as a simplified 'catch all' term in measuring a character's total moral and personal values, similar to the far more complicated system used in earlier versions of Dungeons and Dragons and Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game rules.

Without some sort of measure for your character's 'morality' choices, there is less room for decision options that can make your character more interesting and provide more choices and opportunities later on based on choices made earlier.

Without some sort of 'morals' value system, there is far less depth to a character's persona, and less reason for making any particular decision one way or another beyond a player's whim.

Hi. I agree but you twisted a little this system in my opinion. Morality system should only show what type of person you are based on your actions. In KOTOR I act like I want and end up... grey. But still I made choices I want and have no problem. Persuasion was something else.

What is the main goal of a player ? To have best outcome based on his skills and decisions in RPG right ? Problem is that only way to get best outcome is to focus on paragon or renegade (you even get a hint about that in ME 2). While I think that's wrong. And there is lack of deph just like when we don't have morality system at all if you think about it.

I did say it few times. Right now players just focus on paragon and renegade. All other options are useless. Third option always lead to worst outcome so it is cast out. On the other hand - if you do both paragon and renegade, later in the game (not so long) you will have no paragon/renegade anwers.
More to that. Conversations became "something else" because you learn that when paragon/renegade option appear - you should use it. And you use mostly one of them all the time.

So whole paragon/renegade system can work only in 2 situations.
1. You focus on one of them
2. You replay the game to have both paragon and renegade on max level

So second time when I would play the game would be the time when I can really use all options. And it's bad because at least in old games we had sometimes 5-10 conversation options when in ME is usually 3-5 while 1-2 of them is strictly for information, not for moving conversation further.

Modifié par Dariuszp, 19 août 2011 - 10:52 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dariuszp wrote...

Hi. I agree but you twisted a little this system in my opinion. Morality system should only show what type of person you are based on your actions. In KOTOR I act like I want and end up... grey. But still I made choices I want and have no problem. Persuasion was something else.

According to whom? That's the problem.
I don't need the GAME itself to judge me. If specific characters want to, that is a different matter.

And there is lack of deph just like when we don't have morality system at all if you think about it.

No.

[furryrage59]

I'd prefer to figure out the right and wrong myself than having paragon/renegade etc.

[Dariuszp]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dariuszp wrote...

Hi. I agree but you twisted a little this system in my opinion. Morality system should only show what type of person you are based on your actions. In KOTOR I act like I want and end up... grey. But still I made choices I want and have no problem. Persuasion was something else.

According to whom? That's the problem.
I don't need the GAME itself to judge me. If specific characters want to, that is a different matter.

And there is lack of deph just like when we don't have morality system at all if you think about it.

No.

Sorry but are you serious ? RIGHT NOW game judge you. If game put you in paragon shoes you can't use renegade options sometimes. Same if you are renegade. You will have blocked paragon stuff unless you played more than one time and get points to both of them. Also game give you paragon/renegade options. So what you are saying - game is doing right now.
I want little of old system where you could select whatever response you see fit and THEN you got points for your actions.
Because it's stupid in RPG when you don't RP but you just select red options to have renegade unlocked.

Problem with this system is that I cant respond like I want where response is THERE. Why limit this ? I'm a good guy. I want to help people. But I have low tolerancy for idiots and evil people. I don't mind killing them or something like that. One evil people dead - better for everyone. And I never understand "heroes" that don't kill evil people.
So why I can't make response according to my believes ? Why block them ?

As example. I played KOTOR 1 and 2 (recently) and I was grey most of the game. I played ME 1 and ME 2 and for most of the game I was between paragon and renegade (i just forget about this system and play as I want while I constantly had some options blocked by morality system). I played Witcher 1 and I end up as neutral person (witcher have 3 aligments). NOT INTENTIONALLY. Just because I made choices I was thinking are the best.

So I personaly think that morality system need serious upgrades.


// EDIT
By that lack of depth i mean that you just stick to the renegade or paragon options whole game because it's really almost only choice to get best of every situations. It's sad

Modifié par Dariuszp, 19 août 2011 - 12:19 .

[Undertone]

Seboist wrote...

Another problem with the system is that it's too one dimensional with the rationales someone might have for making a decision, like I chose to spare the Rachni Queen because I wanted a human ally ("against the reapers and beyond") not because my Shepard is some idealist do gooder motivated by simple petty morality.

We need more dialogue options to express our Shepard's reasoning like in the end of Mordin's loyalty mission where you have four to choose from with regards on what to do with the genophage data.

QFT. I sacrificed the Council because I wanted to win the battle. Not because I hate aliens...

And last but definitely not least - Persuasion shouldn't be tied to morality. Worst concept ever in ME2.

Modifié par Undertone, 19 août 2011 - 12:25 .

[Dariuszp]

EXACLY. I released Rachni to gain allies. Nothing more. I don't care about crazy bugs. But they can be usefull. I saved the Council because Ascnesion will be usefull in battle against Reapers. Not because of council itself. I WANTED THAT SHIP. It was not because I was good. As I say - I end up more paragon than renegade in ME 1 and ME 2. And most paragon options I selected to gain something.

MORALITY != PERSUASION. Please.

Modifié par Dariuszp, 19 août 2011 - 01:01 .

[Savber100]

An interesting interview recently popped up with Associated Producer Mike Gamble: 

GC: One of the things we’re worried about is that we made what we believed to be a morally sound decision about what to do with the geth at the end of Mass Effect 2. But as far as the game is concerned we got awarded renegade points for the decision. And now we’re worried everyone is going to think we’re evil when the plot point gets raised again.

[At this point Gamble, who has clearly been struggling with a very sore throat and cough the entire interview, exhibits an almost Pavlovian response at the topic of morality and immediately leaps up into his chair for the new topic – his illness for the moment forgotten.]

MG: So right now we’re getting into that whole, ‘depending on how your moral compass works’ and moral relativity. There are some choices in Mass Effect which appear morally correct to some people but not others, and to feed into Mass Effect 3 we have a lot of situations where there’s not really, in a lot of cases, a really good or bad choice in terms of morality. There’s just varying shades of grey, with varying different consequences. There’s always going to be sacrifices and in Mass Effect 3 that comes out.Speaking to your exact point there I don’t think you have much to worry about in Mass Effect 3. They will know your choice, but you won’t necessarily be made to feel you made the wrong choice.
Me:   

Source: http://www.metro.co....iew-a-moral-war

Modifié par Savber100, 19 août 2011 - 11:16 .

[shep82]

I guess I'm the only one that likes it as is eh?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Too late -- this will be a mega meta-morality thread.

I hate it for dialogue choices. Go back to ME1 for this.

[Someone With Mass]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Too late -- this will be a mega meta-morality thread.

I hate it for dialogue choices. Go back to ME1 for this.

Back to the dialogue system where Shepard said the same thing regardless of your choice at times? No thanks.

[wizardryforever]

jreezy wrote...

shep82 wrote...

I guess I'm the only one that likes it as is eh?

Nope.

Ditto.