40 replies to this topic

[D.Shepard]

Greetings, fellow DA fans,
 
I’m currently playing Legacy and I wonder what is the “wiser” choice in dealing with Larius/Janeka conflict.
 
My first impression was not to trust both of them. Larius was clearly influenced by the taint while Janeka’s actions are reckless, just to use an euphemism.
If I had to take a decision quickly I’d simply plan to destroy Corypheus. The story’s progression proves this is an inevitable course of action.
 
However the dilemma remains: What is it wiser?
Larius’ plan appears safer, if allying yourself with a Ghoul may be safe or wise.
From the other side Janeka’s plan is still worth of consideration. Since both plans require Corypheus to be set free why don’t give it a try?
 
What do you think is the “wiser” way to resolve the Larius/Janeka conflict?
Using Mass Effect morality parameters what do you consider the “Paragon” choice?
Ultimately what choice produces the most “epic” plot?
 
You comments are much appreciated.

[whykikyouwhy]

Wisdom in this matter would be very subjective based on how you choose to play Hawke. Much like most of the "moral" quandaries in DA2, nothing is cut and dry, nothing is without consequence (especially since I think that Corypheus did a bit of body-hopping).

For my first Legacy playthrough, I sided with Larius - defeat the awakened magister, thwart the wardens and their seemingly hasty plan to "study" him, possibly vanquish that which Malcolm was seeking to trap and confine. That decision "felt" right.

Second Legacy playthrough - I opted to side with Janeka. And while she spoke coherently, with sense and logic compared to Larius's awkward phrasing and eyes carrying bewilderment (and the taint), it still felt wrong.

It really holds to the type pf player and the type of Hawke. In the end, there is no right or wrong perhaps - it's all about how to then deal with the potential aftermath of the events.

[LobselVith8]

I chose Larius, but I don't feel like either decision really matters - it leads to pretty much the same conclusion either way.

[thendcomes]

The only difference is the boss fight. Follow Janeka and you fight three golems, one of whom drops a +6 health regen ring. Follow Larius and you fight three Arcane Horrors and a Revenant, one of whom drops a belt with 1-2 Dex and 3% attack speed.

Oh this is an RP question. Nevermind...

[Quething]

For myself, I generally agree with Varric; why not try Janeka's plan? You can always still go with Larius' idea and kill him anyway if the control fails. Since both of them want you to free Cory, might as well take a shot at making something good out of it.

For main!Hawke, it was even more clear-cut; Janeka sent thugs to kill her sister, Janeka dies horribly. But it's easiest to kill someone when their guard is down, so: side with her, let her be useful with Cory if possible, then shank her on the tower when she's least expecting it (unless damn kill-stealing Larius jumps her first, the jerk).

For mage!Hawke, it was equally easy: Janeka intended to use blood magic, nothing good can possibly come from blood magic, side with Larius.

On the whole, though, I'd say the game tends to tilt you toward Larius in much the way it nudged you toward Harrowmont in DA:O. She's a patronizing ass who works with the thugs who tried to kill you, and she basically demands your help. He's a kind guide who freely offers his. I would expect the "average" Hawke to side with Larius more often than not even without the blood magic issue.

[bleetman]

It'd have made a much more difficult choice had I not stumbled across a veritable library of codex entries beforehand which explained in great detail just how bad an idea it would be to let Corypants loose, strewn around the floor of a magical underground prison built specifically to contain him.

Varric's 'what's the worse that could happen?' argument didn't exactly sway me.

Edited by bleetman, 18 August 2011 - 05:39 PM.

[Sylvius the Mad]

My Hawke sought magical knowledge above all else (I patterned her personality after Avernus from DAO), so she chose Janeka. Larius seemed to want to destroy the knowledge and power, and my Hawke couldn't allow that.

That said, I routinely play characters who lack concern for the welfare of others, so my example might not be relevant to you.

[Quething]

bleetman wrote...

It'd have made a much more difficult choice had I not stumbled across a veritable library of codex entries beforehand which explained in great detail just how bad an idea it would be to let Corypants loose, strewn around the floor of a magical underground prison built specifically to contain him.

Varric's 'what's the worse that could happen?' argument didn't exactly sway me.

Larius wants you to let him loose too, though. If it were a choice between "let him out and try to control him" and "keep him locked up," I'd be more concerned about the codicies, but as-is, it's a choice between "let him out and try to control him" and "let him out and then kill him." Which to my mind isn't really a choice, just a Plan A/Plan B situation.

Edited by Quething, 18 August 2011 - 06:13 PM.

[bleetman]

Quething wrote...


Larius wants you to let him loose too, though. If it were a choice between "let him out and try to control him" and "keep him locked up," I'd be more concerned about the codicies, but as-is, it's a choice between "let him out and try to control him" and "let him out and then kill him." Which to my mind isn't really a choice, just a Plan A/Plan B situation.

This is true. Unfortunately, it's just one of those things the game does with annoying frequency:  forcing you to choose between two plans that both suck. At the very least, let-him-out-and-kill-him seems slightly less bonkers nuts with something so apparently dangerous.

Filament wrote...

I thought Janeka's, "I can totally control this ancient evil that millennia of sacrifice have kept locked up, I have blood magic, don't worry guise," sounded like pretty much the worst plan I've ever heard in my life.

Yes

Edited by bleetman, 18 August 2011 - 06:13 PM.

[Maugrim]

Filament wrote...

I thought Janeka's, "I can totally control this ancient evil that millennia of sacrifice have kept locked up, I have blood magic, don't worry guise," sounded like pretty much the worst plan I've ever heard in my life.

Pretty much this.  Blood magic rarely turns out well and binding someone/thing to your will, ancient evil or not, is just wrong.  It can never be a good thing and is rarely as necessary as some would like to imply.

One metagame consideration I made, that I doubt will be reflected in the future was that I would think it would be "better" if Corypheus wasn't possesing a mages body.  So killing Janeka and siding with Larius, leading to his old, non-magical tainted body already on it's calling being possesed seems like it would be safer for Thedas.

[Quething]

bleetman wrote...

This is true. Unfortunately, it's just one of those things the game does with annoying frequency:  forcing you to choose between two plans that both suck. At the very least, let-him-out-and-kill-him seems slightly less bonkers nuts with something so apparently dangerous.

Filament wrote...

I thought Janeka's, "I can totally control this ancient evil that millennia of sacrifice have kept locked up, I have blood magic, don't worry guise," sounded like pretty much the worst plan I've ever heard in my life.

Yes

Well, sure, it's not a brilliant Plan A by any means. I had zero faith in it as a player, and minimal faith in it as Hawke.
But "if things get out of hand, I'll just kill Cory" is as viable a plan B as "if things get out of hand, I'll just kill Merrill," and Hawke is willing to roll with the whole New Path quest. I'm seeing a degree of willingness to risk, as well as a degree of faith in her own competence by Hawke, that seems to be a canon character trait. If there's one thing Hawke doesn't worry about, it's things being too powerful for her to kill. And from my perspective as a player, I know bosses are designed to be obliterated by PCs, so I'm able to share that confidence. So, as slim a chance as Janeka offers, why not give it a whack? If it doesn't work out, well... send him the way of all Arishoks, Harversters, Pride Demons and Rock Wraiths before him. No big.

Though, yes. The ability to choose options that are not insane at all would have been a nice change. <_<

Edited by Quething, 18 August 2011 - 06:21 PM.

[whykikyouwhy]

As annoying as the whole "Plan A/Plan B" scenarios are, they're so intrinsically human, so very "d*mned if you do/ d*mned if you don't." They're very grounding after all of the fireball flinging and head-lobbing sometimes.

I don't know if Larius is the lesser of the two evils though. If he is possessed, the Corypheus essence may just find an more suitable vessel at the warden HQ. Who's to say he can't body-hop again?

So then it boils down to gut reaction, I guess. The pesky meta is what plagues the conscience.

[macrocarl]

One play through I went with Lar and then switched to Jan just to see what happens, and it's kind of explodey awesome.

[jlb524]

bleetman wrote...

This is true. Unfortunately, it's just one of those things the game does with annoying frequency:  forcing you
to choose between two plans that both suck. At the very least, let-him-out-and-kill-him seems slightly less bonkers nuts with something so apparently dangerous.

I think you have to do something about him though, as he'll just keep sending people after you if you don't.

Mash Mashington wrote...

The scene where she actually fails to control it was pretty fun though

Yes, I laugh everytime she swears after failing.

[bleetman]

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, Hawke is something of a magpie in his/her attraction to shiny objects shimmering with an aura of foreboding magic.

"It's definately magic, and not the good kind"
"Cha-ching" *fling it to Varric*

"Hey, why is this glowing weapon thing on the body of a dwa- WHAT IS THIS I CAN FEEL IT INSIDE ME"

Point being, I assume s/he'd probably have let Corypants lose regardless of whether Larius or Janeka were there. Those four elemental obelisks binding his prison. So shiny must touch them.

jlb524 wrote...

I think you have to do something about him though, as he'll just keep sending people after you if you don't.

This is true. I think you also need to kill him to actually escape the tower, perhaps.

Edited by bleetman, 18 August 2011 - 06:39 PM.

[Mr.House]

Mash Mashington wrote...

The scene where she actually fails to control it was pretty fun though

"Oh sh*t."

[jlb524]

bleetman wrote...

This is true. I think you also need to kill him to actually escape the tower, perhaps.

Yes, that too XD

So I tend to agree with Quething and side with Janeka...if she fails, you just kill him anyway.  

Edited by jlb524, 18 August 2011 - 06:42 PM.

[bleetman]

Well, there's the issue of whether establishing control and maintaining control are the same thing, but I suppose that's fair.

It also presumably has the bonus of making Hawke look like less of a tool for not being at all suspicious of his/her chosen ally than when siding with Larius. Oh, you suddenly and inexplicably regained your sanity? Ok then! Toodles!

Edited by bleetman, 18 August 2011 - 06:53 PM.

[Apathy1989]

Filament wrote...

I thought Janeka's, "I can totally control this ancient evil that millennia of sacrifice have kept locked up, I have blood magic, don't worry guise," sounded like pretty much the worst plan I've ever heard in my life.

Pretty much. The wardens used loads of demons and blood magic to hold him, believing a single blood mage can control him is stupid.


However if Hawk doesn't ask many questions to Larius then its not unreasonable for him to sound like a tainted crazy who should be ignored. But then just both of them sound crazy, and hawk just wants to get out of that damn pit. You'd think working with the sane wardens would yield better chances of getting out.

[whykikyouwhy]

Apathy1989 wrote...

Filament wrote...

I thought Janeka's, "I can totally control this ancient evil that millennia of sacrifice have kept locked up, I have blood magic, don't worry guise," sounded like pretty much the worst plan I've ever heard in my life.

Pretty much. The wardens used loads of demons and blood magic to hold him, believing a single blood mage can control him is stupid.


However if Hawk doesn't ask many questions to Larius then its not unreasonable for him to sound like a tainted crazy who should be ignored. But then just both of them sound crazy, and hawk just wants to get out of that damn pit. You'd think working with the sane wardens would yield better chances of getting out.

Intentional bolding on my part.

I feel the need to quote a certain old woman who talks too much - "Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature."

You can't trust anyone in Kirkwall - not the tainted, and not the folks in their sleek blues and greys. It's no wonder that at the end of all of it, Hawke just squints at either Larius or Janeka, shrugs and then packs up and goes home. It's been a long day, the big bad is conceivably "dead" - all (s)he wants to do is go home, sit by the fire, have a drink, eat some cheese, and try not to think about salamanders running amok in the Estate.

[Morroian]

macrocarl wrote...

One play through I went with Lar and then switched to Jan just to see what happens, and it's kind of explodey awesome.

Same with the opposite.

[Tainan7509]

If you betray Janeka at the end, you will see Larius jump on her and beat crap out of her brain. 

Edited by Tainan7509, 20 August 2011 - 01:34 PM.

[esper]

My canon Hawke sided with Larius because Anders told her not to trust Janeka, and quit frankly between the ghoul and the warden with the 'let's free an acient evil and hope I can control it plan' my Hawke had no idea who was the lesser of two evils, so she went with the Grey Warden who she knew bedst.
My Evelyn went with the Larius as well because she didn't like bloodmagic, but she turned on him in the end because of the mother thing...
So having seen both endings I can't honestly say which choice is the wiser expect. I guess it depends on which set of abilities you want the 'thing' in the end to have. More magic abilites or what looks like a warrior. (assuming of course that body jumping works like demonic possession - where the guest obtains the host's abilities.)