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[Rifneno]

"One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see. " - Sandal's prophecy

Maetashear War Axe, a crappy weapon dropped by the high dragon in DAO. Its description: "This oversized weapon was reforged from two poleaxes and dates to the founding conquests of the Tevinter Imperium. Runes tell a primitive creation myth of how the lands of gods and men were cut apart."

The crazy theory: The Fade is not the natural state of things. It and the mortal realm were once one... and soon will be again.

This raises a lot of questions. What are spirits and demons then? What is Oil City? What will happen at the merging? Who is the "he" Sandal mentions? The Maker? How and why were they separated? Exactly how bad are the Chantry and the Qunari going to freak out when suddenly everyone is a mage? ... I'll get back to you on those. 

[Neminea]

Where is version AAAA?
Sorry, just had to do that.
The thing I like a lot about DA is that unlike in most modern fantasy, the gods or god or the way things were created isn't a given. There is hardly any proof one way or the other.

Since there are so many theories going around about old dwarves that used to be able to do magic, couldn't Sandal have ment that by it? A prophecy for the dwarves alone?

Following your theory, I would suggest that maybe it isn't the Fade itself that is unnatural, but the Veil that sperates the mortal and spirit world. Maybe in ye olden times it was much like you see it in series like Avatar the Last Airbender, with the spirit and mortal world living side by side.

[Reznore57]

That's actually one of my crazy theories too .
I thing the taint and the demon might be a result of the body (thedas) being torn from the soul/mind(the fade).
The golden city might be the place where "gods" were happily living until someone did something really stupid( i sense a betrayal ) maybe a god tried to kill another and tainted the city , divided thedas and the fade in the process.
Some gods were trapped in thedas , and others in the world beyond the fade , Morrigan try to reach.

And i don't think this prophecy foresee happiness and rainbows for everyone.There's a lot of mythology where Gods have their own agenda and doesn't care much about the mortals.

Modifié par Reznore57, 18 août 2011 - 04:30 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Ah, Rifneno - and here I thought I might go the rest of the week before I again embraced crazy theories and indulged in some Manchego. You've heard/read some of my musings before, but I'm feeling mildly philosophical and on a metaphysical bend, so here you go:

Maybe the Fade and the mortal realm were more merged, yes - that makes sense. The veil was put in place to separate energies - maybe concentrated magical energy was ripping apart the physical, threatening to undermine the solidness of it. Maybe the fade became all about the housing of souls - a repository of sorts. Therein we get into all sorts of haziness because its very much the intagible warring with the concrete. It may have been that the gods/creators/whoever the heck themselves divided the realms amongst themselves. Clearly I need to mull on this part more.

The Rotten Twinkie City (Oil City) - a dumping ground for the dregs formed when the world was made. All shadows and vileness locked in a proverbial pandora's box and possibly casting a golden hue due to the magics binding it. It became a legend like El Dorado - an intangible location that amounted to nothing of true worth but was spun up to be something rich with power. Or, there is power in the darkness it holds but the magisters thought that the shadows would be less corrupting. It's an allegorical view of it, yes. But I find myself believing that someone told a good yarn with that place.

"He" is the maker, but the maker is a pinata of sorts. He's the shell into which the old gods/creators/mystic knights of oingo boingo were funneled into. Maybe they are truly trapped, maybe they are dormant, maybe they are merely waiting for the right time to rise again to power and seek dominion over man. So when he returns, the pinata will be cracked open and all sorts of gods or godlings will drop down upon Thedas.

And the world will panic because the people will no longer know what foundation of faith is true, or how to handle the forces that now surround them.

So there's some craziness for you.

[TEWR]

I wonder if the Fen'Harel story ties into your theories Rifneno and whykikyouwhy?

[whykikyouwhy]

How he walks between the gods and forgotten ones? Sure. That aspect would make sense. It's his whole "trickster coyote" persona that is the clincher though. Was he splitting the ethereal into two realms just for kicks? Was he pitting the two worlds and their respective inhabitants against each other? Or is he just an entity that represents nothing more than fate and chaos - the unexpected, the whole murphy's law thing?

If he exists as a separate being, maybe he's simply a neutral figure. If the gods (and I use that term collectively, leaning on no one pantheon) fought amongst themselves perhaps, and separated the worlds in that regard, perhaps Fen'Harel is doing the whole 'tell dad what mom said because mom and dad aren't talking' bit. Which then of course gives some credence to a desire to meld the two worlds and the entities back together.

I feel like I may be toggling back too much to RL mythological archetypes, but I think some of the same themes exist. I may completely have the formula and application wrong though.

Oh, and it a known fact that Fen'Harel likes cheese.

[T3H Fish]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I wonder if the Fen'Harel story ties into your theories Rifneno and whykikyouwhy?

That jumps to mind, considering in Fen'Harel's story, he managed to trick the Dalish Pantheon and the Forgotten Ones into seperate realms. Maybe the story itself references an 'event' that happend that has created the Veil (and maybe the Taint as well)

[Macropodmum]

"He" = Morrigans son? And before everyone starts jumping up and down about not having done the dark ritual, in Witch hunt she mentions a destiny awaiting him so I would assume from that that she ends up with a child somehow....

[TEWR]

we don't even know what happens to the Old Gods when they die. It's a soul like anyone else's, so perhaps they go to the same place other peoples' souls do.

Perhaps Morrigan found a way to grab the soul of an Old God that was already slain. Perhaps when the Warden killed Urthemiel, Morrigan did extensive research after the Warden's death using Flemeth's Real Grimoire to find out if she could grab an Old God's soul.

There's nothing to indicate (as far as I know) that the DR was the only way to have an OGB. It's probably just the quickest and easiest way.


@T3H Fish: That's what I was thinking too.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 août 2011 - 01:10 .

[King Cousland]

I agree that Thedas and the Fade were once one, and there's evidence to suggest that the Fade is younger than Thedas, or at least the same age, since nothing within it is an "original" creation, just an imitation of something in the physical world. Even spirits and demons are mere representations of virtues and sins.

[whykikyouwhy]

harkness72 wrote...

I agree that Thedas and the Fade were once one, and there's evidence to suggest that the Fade is younger than Thedas, or at least the same age, since nothing within it is an "original" creation, just an imitation of something in the physical world. Even spirits and demons are mere representations of virtues and sins.

Intentional bolding on my part.

This is an interesting statement - it brings to mind the whole "which came first" riddle/argument/query. So in this case, what was first? The aspect/quality or the person exercising it? Which then leads to which came first - the soul/spirit or the body?

I think that only some spirits are based on virtues/sins - the big baddies seem to be at least. Or maybe they were never based on those aspects at all, but it's in trying to comprehend and control them, that man applies a quality.

I could dig this hole considerably deeper...

[Ariella]

I see things like this and I want to swear that Sandal is the R2 D2 of the Dragon Age Universe. The only one who really knows everything that goes on and went on and can't, o if you believe R2 has a perverse sense of humor, won't tell except in cryptic beeps.

[nitefyre410]

I'm Starting to get the feeling that Veil splitting the Mortal world and the Fade is something that is very unnatural and could be in the future causing a lot more problems then it may have solved. Maybe it threw off the Balance of things much like if you cut a realm off from Yggdrasil it cause a ripple effect through the other Realms.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Rifneno wrote...

"One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see. " - Sandal's prophecy

Thinking more on this, I wonder what he means by "the" magic, and "all of it."

I think "the" could be a reference to "one particular form" of magic - as in perhaps blood magic or the normal kind. (Any favorite picks? )

And "all of it" could refer to more forms of magic which we haven't yet seen, such as a superset; or it could be a reference to species like dwarves regaining their magic, as Sandal seems to be.

"The shadows will part and the skies will open wide" - definitely a metaphor. To what though?

And we should add Eleni Zenovia's predictions in there, too:
"Weep not for me, child. Stone they made me and stone I am, eternal and unfeeling. And thus shall I endure 'til the Maker returns to light their fires again."

So His returning to "light their fires" will result in her "unbecoming a stone." What's the connection here? And who are refered to by "their?" Whose fires have been put out that makes her to endure a "stony" form - and is she even talking about her stony form? Definitely an Archon put her in her present condition, but is there no counter to it? Is that what she means? That perhaps her spirit has been trapped there in that stone, waiting for a time for it be released?

And more references to "shadows":
"The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The... the shadow will consume all..."

This makes me wonder what was happening down there in the Circle's basement. Veil tears and possessed Sentinels (templars?). What was it that we prevented by closing those tears during Witch Hunt? What is this "shadow" she feared would consume all?

Even the folks from BioWare have acknowledged Eleni's prophesies (make note of the plural there) are something to take note of.

And finally, Flemeth:
"We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment... and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly."

If we are to believe her (which most of us tend to) there is some change coming to the world. And it involves some plummet into the abyss (encroaching shadows again, perhaps?). Again I cannot connect the latter part of her statements to the former. Why is it that one should leap? And what is this about "learning to fly?" Learning to do magic, perhaps? It is as vague as anything can get.

The crazy theory: The Fade is not the natural state of things. It and the mortal realm were once one... and soon will be again.

Well, it could be some reference to something like the body and soul being ripped apart, sure. But body and soul of what, exactly? Individual persons? Is it meant to imply that a person has his body in Thedas and his soul in the Fade? And somehow this "art" of ripping them apart this way is going to be at and end?

This raises a lot of questions. What are spirits and demons then? What is Oil City? What will happen at the merging? Who is the "he" Sandal mentions? The Maker? How and why were they separated? Exactly how bad are the Chantry and the Qunari going to freak out when suddenly everyone is a mage? ... I'll get back to you on those. 

Well, whatever it is, there is a change coming apparently (Flemeth), and that change is supposedly a throwback of sorts (Sandal). And all this will happen when the shadow has been vanquished (Eleni and Sandal), and when the Maker comes back and lights their fires (Eleni and possibly Sandal).

Well, good luck with that.

EDIT: Fixing formatting.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 19 août 2011 - 02:36 .

[whykikyouwhy]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
*snip*

And finally, Flemeth:
"We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment... and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly."

If we are to believe her (which most of us tend to) there is some change coming to the world. And it involves some plummet into the abyss (encroaching shadows again, perhaps?). Again I cannot connect the latter part of her statements to the former. Why is it that one should leap? And what is this about "learning to fly?" Learning to do magic, perhaps? It is as vague as anything can get.

*snip snip*

The abyss is the unknown, the unfamliar - the swirling vortex that, when this "change" comes to the DA world, will be the proverbial rock and hard place. It could be the reshaping of faith - when the Maker is no longer the Maker, and the older deities rise to their previous seats of power, the "abyss" is the despair from no longer having a spirital foundation upon which to stand.

And so, you're on the precipice. And learning to fly is figuring out whether or not you can survive having your whole world reshaped.

Oh, it's all wondrously vague (and if vague is going to be delivered, it should be in Kate Mulgrew's voice), and I'm probably approaching it armed with far too much allegory and metaphor.

[Sajuro]

If the fade and the physical world joined once more, does that mean that all of the tranquils would once again become whole like Ander's friend Karl?

[whykikyouwhy]

Sajuro wrote...

If the fade and the physical world joined once more, does that mean that all of the tranquils would once again become whole like Ander's friend Karl?

That would be an interesting twist. But with Karl, with the Fade in the separated existence that we know it to be, mages would be able to enter the realm when they dream, or to draw from it to cast spells, right?

If the Fade and the mortal world were to merge (once again?), then there would be no need to dream. That aspect of entering/accessing the Fade would be null and void. But the ability to draw power from all around would exist.

The way that mages function day to day would change, I would think. The manner in which they cast, the way they can move in an ethereal sense, would be altered by this new reality.

I suspect though, that the tranquilizing part of the Rite, the dulling of the senses and the spirutal lobotomy, might still exist for the Tranquil. I don't know how that part would be undone. Unless maybe the merging of the realms causes the Tranquil to become horribly unstable.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 19 août 2011 - 04:18 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Which begs the question - how powerful is a mage who is the living embodiment of all that he/she lost? does he/she become a conduit for the Fade energy? (sort of like those altars in the Fade in Witch Hunt?)

A bit of a stretch, but paralleing with Flemeth's phoenix rising act from Sundermount - will the Tranquil be reborn as something greater? Something not human, not spirit - but maybe something more akin to the true first children? (rumored to be spirits only, but what if the aspects of the "children" were split just as the realms of Fade and mundance were?)

Now I'm just talking crazy.

[Macropodmum]

I think that when the veil shifted Karl was reconnected with whatever part of himself was trapped in the fade, (kind of like having a circuit breaker that is turned off suddenly gets turned back on) so it wouldn't be a stretch to think that if the veil and the world was reunited then so would the parts of the tranquil trapped in the fade with their bodies......

Modifié par Macropodmum, 19 août 2011 - 05:25 .

[Sajuro]

Moreover, if Mages are able to walk in the fade within their dreams and have that connectedness to it, is that the source of their powers and if it is and everyone is brought back into 'contact' with the fade, would everyone be able to use magic like the elves used to be able to do according to their own legends and stories about the 'good old days'.

@Macro: Dreams can be used metaphorically for the part of a person that makes them who they are, given that mages can walk around in the fade in their dreams, you could say that they tenuously exist on both planes (their 'soul' in the fade, with them only being aware of it when they are asleep, think of the warden when the sloth demon traps them and their companions in the fade, their bodies remain behind and I think it was that the other guy's body died of starvation or something) so tranquility is basically cutting the body off from the soul resulting in the creepy monotone.

Modifié par Sajuro, 19 août 2011 - 07:18 .

[Macropodmum]

Sajuro wrote...

Moreover, if Mages are able to walk in the fade within their dreams and have that connectedness to it, is that the source of their powers and if it is and everyone is brought back into 'contact' with the fade, would everyone be able to use magic like the elves used to be able to do according to their own legends and stories about the 'good old days'.

@Macro: Dreams can be used metaphorically for the part of a person that makes them who they are, given that mages can walk around in the fade in their dreams, you could say that they tenuously exist on both planes (their 'soul' in the fade, with them only being aware of it when they are asleep, think of the warden when the sloth demon traps them and their companions in the fade, their bodies remain behind and I think it was that the other guy's body died of starvation or something) so tranquility is basically cutting the body off from the soul resulting in the creepy monotone.

I'd be inclined to agree on the soul part (and indeed think I mentioned it as such in another thread) however the only problem with being that the soul is trapped in the fade is that the tranquils walk, talk, perform tasks and think.  It is probably peas and potatoes but if you subscribe to the notion of say, astral travel in R/L, then cutting the body off from the wandering part inevitably ends up in death, so I'm guessing it is something other than a soul that goes to the fade, maybe just a higher consciousness or such

[SkittlesKat96]

Not too related but maybe there is an angry jealous fade demon plotting his revenge on the mortal world?

After all its said that the fade was the Makers 'failed' world or something like that, not that thats true (it could be though) but still it is a motivation point for some spirits and demons and would make a good game plot

[whykikyouwhy]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Not too related but maybe there is an angry jealous fade demon plotting his revenge on the mortal world?

After all its said that the fade was the Makers 'failed' world or something like that, not that thats true (it could be though) but still it is a motivation point for some spirits and demons and would make a good game plot

There are conflicting accounts as to what the Fade is. I've read one wiki entry that states the Fade was what the Maker created as a "heaven" for mortals. I've read another entry where the Fade was the first realm created by the Maker and was meant to inhabit his First Children - the spirits of the Fade.

It's possible that a coup is being staged, but I think it would be from a gathering of spirits/demons if so, not just one. Maybe...and I'm just throwing out what's currently at the forefront of my brain (which somewhat contradicts other theories I have)...maybe when the spirits created the "alternate reality" of the moral realm in the Fade, they intended to reverse the order of things - draw mortals into the Fade so that they, the spirits, could dwell in the living world. They intended to switch places, and the only way to do that is to create a seemingly perfect parallel - an anti-universe (where all the evil people have goatees...wait...what?). And thus, the Black City remains the constant image in the Fade sky - it's the center of that universe. The core of the negative energy that is keeping that realm thriving.

Eh. A bit far-fetched.